National Reputation Persistence (Karma) - Entry to enemy battles.

[Anolytic]

For a solo/small-group player who mostly go to PvP-zones but wants to be part of big fights of many ships without having to join a big clan and go do RvR with all its investment and effort, this change will severely affect their opportunity to continue to experience the game in the same way. If they continue to look for interesting fights to join this is an example of how their PvP options would progressively restrict until they eventually would only be able to join the battles of one other nation:

In this example the player is Polish, and the green checkmark indicates the side that he joined in each battle.

There needs to be an exception for Patrol Zones at least, so this playstyle is still possible even if significantly limited. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Anolytic
Fixed 1 mistake in diagram

[Lt Sekiro]

10 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

For a solo/small-group player who mostly go to PvP-zones but wants to be part of big fights of many ships without having to join a big clan and go do RvR with all its investment and effort, this change will severely affect their opportunity to continue to experience the game in the same way. If they continue to look for interesting fights to join this is an example of how their PvP options would progressively restrict until they eventually would only be able to join the battles of one other nation:

In this example the player is Polish, and the green checkmark indicates the side that he joined in each battle.

There needs to be an exception for Patrol Zones at least, so this playstyle is still possible even if significantly limited. 

Not only for patrole zone , or open world pvp will fall very fast  and everyone will stay in pz.

We need something for player they to have chance to fight everyone.

Maybe a corsaire flag. 
You pay each day X doublons , lost 30 % reward , but you can fight and help everyone 

Raise the Real Pirate flag

[Hethwill]

They can still attack any of those. Attacks are not locked.

[z4ys]

There is a mistake. When he joined on pirate side on day one he would not be able to join later as french on the same day. And dutch wouldnt be locked because he stayed true to his own flag (day 1) - haven't check the other days because of the mistakes on day one.

But yeah when you don't think about consequences then the player will end up only with battles he started or got started by his nation. Its better  to pick a side and stick with it 

I do agree that patrolzone is a special environment but I dont think it should be excluded. There were reports of this bad behaviour as well. What I would suggest is that patrolzone gets the same mechanic but the actions there count for its own karma and get reseted after every reward claim/maintenance or week (like conquest competition)

People who join every  battle and dont stick to one side are normally those people that join the winning side. So no real loss. What i do expect are more equal battles because of the karma system.

Edited June 12, 2020 by z4ys

[Slim McSauce]

On 6/11/2020 at 6:14 AM, admin said:

This is an MMO and open world is not a lobby 

And Lo, a Righteous Admin

[Raf Van Boom]

I think this is a great idea especially if the part where you can enter your 'friends' ports is implemented.

[Farrago]

I see a chance to finally (again) have a special Pirate mechanic: a Pirate should be able to be and remain enemies with everyone except other Pirates, no matter whom you happen to help or attack on any given day.

But admittedly this would be a big advantage for Pirates without a corresponding negative.

But another thought...

Perhaps this could be an opportunity to introduce letters of marque into the game. By default, everyone gets a letter for every other nation. That’s where we are now anyway. If you — a third party — enter a battle between two nations, you lose the letter. You would then have to buy another letter or marque for that nation in order to restore relations. It should be expensive, but not impossibly so. Say 5000 doubloons. Repeated necessary purchases would go up in price. Additional, higher levels of letters could be sold for higher prices which grant additional benefits with that other nation.

[Koltes]

1 hour ago, Farrago said:

I see a chance to finally (again) have a special Pirate mechanic: a Pirate should be able to be and remain enemies with everyone except other Pirates, no matter whom you happen to help or attack on any given day.

But admittedly this would be a big advantage for Pirates without a corresponding negative.

But another thought...

Perhaps this could be an opportunity to introduce letters of marque into the game. By default, everyone gets a letter for every other nation. That’s where we are now anyway. If you — a third party — enter a battle between two nations, you lose the letter. You would then have to buy another letter or marque for that nation in order to restore relations. It should be expensive, but not impossibly so. Say 5000 doubloons. Repeated necessary purchases would go up in price. Additional, higher levels of letters could be sold for higher prices which grant additional benefits with that other nation.

I think you nailed it mate. If they allow pirates to stay unchanged then I’m all good for this patch. This COULD be the difference pirates needed for a long time. Glad someone thought of this while I was upset killing a good drop of whiskey over my issues 🤣

Edited June 12, 2020 by Koltes

[Christendom]

3 hours ago, Farrago said:

I see a chance to finally (again) have a special Pirate mechanic: a Pirate should be able to be and remain enemies with everyone except other Pirates, no matter whom you happen to help or attack on any given day.

But admittedly this would be a big advantage for Pirates without a corresponding negative.

But another thought...

Perhaps this could be an opportunity to introduce letters of marque into the game. By default, everyone gets a letter for every other nation. That’s where we are now anyway. If you — a third party — enter a battle between two nations, you lose the letter. You would then have to buy another letter or marque for that nation in order to restore relations. It should be expensive, but not impossibly so. Say 5000 doubloons. Repeated necessary purchases would go up in price. Additional, higher levels of letters could be sold for higher prices which grant additional benefits with that other nation.

A good opportunity to make pirates great again.  

Allow them to attack and remain enemies with everyone (including other pirates IMO) and then remove their ability to RVR and give them a couple of static ports that cannot be lost.  A true reaving PVP nation as they should have always been.

[Tiedemann]

How will patrol zone work now? Broken?  

[Macjimm]

This thread is morphing into a pro-pirate topic.  Admittedly it relates to NRP Karma, but perhaps we should start a new thread. 

NRP Karma must apply to all players, including pirates, otherwise it allows pirates to join battles and grief.  The solution, that is sought by this change, will only be happening in those battles without pirates.   Anyone who wishes to continue joining battles and causing problems can simply become part of the pirate nation.

Also: If pirates become more than just the name of another nation, there must be limitations to balance the special pirate privileges.  No port conquest.  No 1st rates.

Also: The cost to buy back damaged Karma must be extravagant.  5,000 Doubloons is trivial.  Such a meager sum is a trifle and is not a deterrent.  500,000 Doubloons is more reasonable.

[Farrago]

13 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

This thread is morphing into a pro-pirate topic.  Admittedly it relates to NRP Karma, but perhaps we should start a new thread. 

NRP Karma must apply to all players, including pirates, otherwise it allows pirates to join battles and grief.  The solution, that is sought by this change, will only be happening in those battles without pirates.   Anyone who wishes to continue joining battles and causing problems can simply become part of the pirate nation.

Also: If pirates become more than just the name of another nation, there must be limitations to balance the special pirate privileges.  No port conquest.  No 1st rates.

Also: The cost to buy back damaged Karma must be extravagant.  5,000 Doubloons is trivial.  Such a meager sum is a trifle and is not a deterrent.  500,000 Doubloons is more reasonable.

I pointed out in my original proposal that giving the ability to be enemies to all without some sort of negative or constraints on Pirates is not a good solution. I’m all in favor of reasonable constraints and other elements to make Pirates unique. Many ideas have been floated in the past.

500,000 doubloons?!? They might as well just make it impossible to join third party battles because that would make it impossible to repair karma for all but the very richest players. Perhaps there’s a number somewhere between mine and 100x that would work. I’d say go ahead with that rule of not joining if we had a lot of players but often, joining battles in-progress is the only action available. Do you define anytime one joins a third party battle as griefing? I know there are instances when it is, but it hasn’t been my experience that it is always like that. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Farrago

[Gregory Rainsborough]

It would be nice if this applied to everyone but pirates to at least give them a bit of flavour. Let them attack each other as well while we're at it!

[Never]

13 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

Also: The cost to buy back damaged Karma must be extravagant.  5,000 Doubloons is trivial.  Such a meager sum is a trifle and is not a deterrent.  500,000 Doubloons is more reasonable.

That's insane. 

[DonH]

Now that Karma is going to be in place could we get a bounty system as well?

The more players u sink of ur same rate or bigger ur bounty growa higher.

If the battle is at equal numbers and same rate or bigger the higher ur bounty goes.

Whenever u sink a higher bounty player u get better exp and doubloons reward. Assists dont get modified.

Bounty resets daily or weekly...

Ur bounty does not grow higher if u sank the same player more than once a day or weekly....

Bounty should be displyed next to ur player card

My 2 doubloons

 

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

4 hours ago, Christendom said:

A good opportunity to make pirates great again.  

Allow them to attack and remain enemies with everyone (including other pirates IMO) and then remove their ability to RVR and give them a couple of static ports that cannot be lost.  A true reaving PVP nation as they should have always been.

Simple way to fix green on green is make it only against the rule if it's same nation unless you are Pirates, every one hates them including other pirates.

 

16 hours ago, vazco said:

People seem to realy not like this payment part. I suggest to make this payment a real-money, instead of reals/doubloons.

 

People spend their valuable time in game to get reals for ships. I get it that they don't like to spend it to join PvP. Let them enjoy the full PvP potential, that is after they pay and support NA and new GL games with some real funds.

 

 

Yah it's called forge papers.  Other wise delete and make a new char if you don't want to pay in game.

[Macjimm]

3 hours ago, Farrago said:

They might as well just make it impossible to join third party battles because that would make it impossible to repair karma for all but the very richest players.

Not impossible.  Restoring one's reputation must involve harsh penalties. If the fine can be worked off in hours, or a few days, it would not be a deterrent.  5k Doubloons would be nothing. 

5,000 Dubs is about 1.5 million Reals

50,000 Dubs ~ 15 million Reals

500,000 Dubs ~ 150 million Reals.

150mil Reals can be earned in less than a few weeks of trading. 15mil Reals is less than the cost of some ships and can be earned in a couple days of trading. The penalty to restore Karma needs to be strict, not just a cost of doing business. The point is to create a disincentive for unwanted actions, not to make a pay-as-you-grief system.

To buy back NRP Karma a second time the cost should get much more expensive, and perhaps also include loss of dock space and outpost slots.

[Farrago]

13 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

Not impossible.  Restoring one's reputation must involve harsh penalties. If the fine can be worked off in hours, or a few days, it would not be a deterrent.  5k Doubloons would be nothing. 

5,000 Dubs is about 1.5 million Reals

50,000 Dubs ~ 15 million Reals

500,000 Dubs ~ 150 million Reals.

150mil Reals can be earned in less than a few weeks of trading. 15mil Reals is less than the cost of some ships and can be earned in a couple days of trading. The penalty to restore Karma needs to be strict, not just a cost of doing business. The point is to create a disincentive for unwanted actions, not to make a pay-as-you-grief system.

To buy back NRP Karma a second time the cost should get much more expensive, and perhaps also include loss of dock space and outpost slots.

I’ve never seen 150 million reals and only had 15 million for a very brief time In the past. I know that some players have much more and some clans have much much more in their warehouses. But I wonder if the players with that sort of wealth are the same players who might want or need to reset their karma. They’re probably players very dedicated to trading or grinding AI elite fleets and marketing the rich spoils. How much wealth does the wealthiest clan have? 5 billion? I truly don’t know but 5 billion is only 33 of your expensive resets using your pricing. And I don’t think we could assume that the price of doubloons would remain so “low” when adding a whole new demand use for them.

Listen, I get it. You don’t want to make it easy to regain karma. I don’t either. But at some point the punishment has to fit the crime and if the crime is just declaring war or living a chaotic evil sort of life in game, we have to be able to restore some normal relations or changing alliances.

[Never]

5 hours ago, Macjimm said:

Not impossible.  Restoring one's reputation must involve harsh penalties. If the fine can be worked off in hours, or a few days, it would not be a deterrent.  5k Doubloons would be nothing. 

5,000 Dubs is about 1.5 million Reals

50,000 Dubs ~ 15 million Reals

500,000 Dubs ~ 150 million Reals.

150mil Reals can be earned in less than a few weeks of trading. 15mil Reals is less than the cost of some ships and can be earned in a couple days of trading. The penalty to restore Karma needs to be strict, not just a cost of doing business. The point is to create a disincentive for unwanted actions, not to make a pay-as-you-grief system.

To buy back NRP Karma a second time the cost should get much more expensive, and perhaps also include loss of dock space and outpost slots.

Most players have never even had 150m reals, even playing for over 1 year, some players are nowhere close to that. Not all players trade or want to trade. Your numbers don't make sense. 

To most players, if they had to pay something like 5k-10k dubs for griefing, they would already think twice before doing it. I agree that players that accumulate a lot of bad karma against some nation with multiple instances should have to pay more. But also you're forgetting that not all instances of joining battles against a certain flag are cases of griefing. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Never

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

10 hours ago, Farrago said:

Perhaps there’s a number somewhere between mine and 100x that would work.

Make it a percentage of what the player is owning. Or his clan.

[Hefestus]

On 6/11/2020 at 7:15 PM, admin said:

 

So i have been playing for about a year or so, joining other battles is 40-50% of the pvp content that i have come across, essentially what is happening is that you have to go out in fleets of the same nation to have fun, no more smaller groups or solo hunts because you will be ganked and left alone by others passing by, flets are difficult to orgnaize and take alot of time. Koltes had a good idea, those players that are cuasing green on green incidents, the combat log has a record of that, give them -ve karma which comes with punishments, dont punish the rest of us. And make incident reporting easier in game, so if someone does something stupid like block your ships, the battle log records everyones name that particpated and you can click report from a log or other mechanism with what happened.

 

[Hethwill]

off topic removed

[Sea Archer]

If you Pirates should be able to join battles without this "Karma"-thing, everybody else should be able to join pirate battle without it, too.

[Robin Lox]

On 6/11/2020 at 6:05 PM, Hefestus said:

So if one member of my clan or nation attacks a Spanish, he gets no -ve Karma, but i cant join the battle to support my own clan because i will get -ve karma? 9if we want to keep karma with spain)

 

No because it's the same faction, you can join into battles of the same faction as you on your nations' side without losing karma. This was already explained early in the post. Say you are in the Swedish nation and come across a Brits vs Spain battle, if you join Spain, you lose karma with Brits. If you come across a Swedish vs Danish battle, you join Sweden and lose no karma with the Danish as you joined your own nations' side.

[van Veen]

I like the idea of Karma or a reputation system! Great job @admin 

Good to see some ideas brought up in the last years finally make it into the game. 

I like the idea of locking out someone from joining sides, but this should not be permanent to allow players to adjust their alliances from time to time. A cool down of 2 weeks perhaps? At any rate, the cooldown should be longer than any considerable offensive action in game. RVR is a stalemate, mostly. Please do not turn PVP into one as well. 

Alternatively, there could be a nation-by-nation amnesty from time to time so that you are free again to renew your alliances. In this case there is no need for a buy-out. 

On the buy-out (in case you want to keep it): buying yourself from the list of enemies should be possible only in a port held by that nation. So, players need to put in a little more extra effort and risk instead of just click and buy. You could turn this into a mission with negative rewards (you need to pay).