National Reputation Persistence (Karma) - Entry to enemy battles.

[admin]

Hello Captains 

There is a mechanic in game where you are able to join enemy NATION battles if they are open and support one side or another. 
It works like this

• You can support other nations in combat in open sea by joining one of the sides (any nation even if you just captured their ports)
• If your nation (for example Britain) have joined side A only British can join side A after that
• This has no consequences for the player and it opens up exploit ability that players use.
  • For example joining for the enemy side in one battle and then joining on your side in the next one and helping the enemy. 
  • This also creates confusion for new players and atomizes the unity in the nation. (When different clans are allied to different nations)

We are no longer satisfied with everlasting ability to false flag. 

Admiralty ruling:

From the next patch National flag Karma will be implemented (Reputation persistence). 

• You will no longer be able to join to support enemy nations if you have ever joined a battle against that nation.
  • For example.
    • If you as Spanish captain side at least once joined any enemy nation (for example Swedish) in the battle against Britain, you will never be able to join the battle on the British side.
    • If the next day still being a Spanish you join Prussian against Swedish you will now additionally be a sworn enemy of Sweden too and now you will not be able to join Britain AND Swedish sides.
    • If you jump around too much as a mercenary you will eventually end up being unable to join ANY enemy battles. And will only be able to fight under your flag. 
  • This ruling does not affect direct honest flag vs flag attacks (Player from Spain attacks player from Britain or vice versa
• Your reputation levels will be indicated in the player info panel under your rank. 
• You will be able to clean your reputation if you made a mistake by paying a significant fine.

Please make precautionary changes in your allied relations and change nations if necessary. 

This mechanic might also spread on port entry rights (both into positive and negative ways).

 

[Atimk]

May I ask how will it work with Prolific Forger? Will it reset the Karma? 

[Malcolm3]

13 minutes ago, admin said:

From the next patch National flag Karma will be implemented (Reputation persistence). 

• You will no longer be able to join to support a nation if you have ever joined a battle against that nation.
  • For example. If you as Spanish captain side at least once joined the battle against Britain, you will never be able to join the battle on the British side.
  • This ruling does not affect direct honest flag vs flag attacks (Player from spain attacks player from Britain or vice versa)

Will there be any indicators of player Karma's status to track? And can bad Karma be lifted off, or it's permanent negative modifier?
Also - will new system be applied for PZ also?

13 minutes ago, admin said:

This mechanic might also spread on port entry rights (both into positive and negative ways)

Does that imply warships or traders? Eg. Trader with bad Karma can't enter enemy port, or warship with good Karma can enter enemy port?

P.S. I was thinking once of reputation system, but in other way and my ideas was quite prone for exploits, so I understand how difficult this ploblem is, but your method seems a bit harsh for me. And also it can lead to less PvP actions as more and more players will be able to join only for certain Nations and in the end only for their own only.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Malcolm3

[Botq]

That system will work in patrol zone too ? 

[admin]

7 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

 

P.S. I was thinking once of reputation system, but in other way and my ideas was quite prone for exploits, so I understand how difficult this ploblem is, but your method seems a bit harsh for me. And also it can lead to less PvP actions as more and more players will be able to join only for certain Nations and in the end only for their own only.

As said before in multiple topics. Only harsh measures work against exploits and abuse.

This system moves thinking to players. We like it. Think before you join on the enemy side. And pay for consequences if decided to use the false flag.

[erelkivtuadrater]

21 minutes ago, admin said:

 

• You will be able to clean your reputation if you made a mistake by paying a significant fine.

 

Speaking from experience this fine wont make of any significant difference for the veteran players considering they would have alot of resources and wont have the same problem as others. Would there be an idea to increase cost of items in admirality? Say in the PvP tab instead if you decrease your reputation with your nation?

 

But the change looks really good btw  

Edited June 11, 2020 by erelkivtuadrater

[Malcolm3]

24 minutes ago, admin said:

• Your reputation levels will be indicated in the player info panel under your rank. 
• You will be able to clean your reputation if you made a mistake by paying a significant fine.

Thanks. Good to see that at least part of my questions is answered already.

5 minutes ago, admin said:

This system moves thinking to players. We like it. Think before you join on the enemy side. And pay for consequences.

As Karma can be reversed back to it's initial status, then it solves main part of my concerns, though it depends on type and amount of "significant fine"

Edited June 11, 2020 by Malcolm3

[admin]

5 minutes ago, Atimk said:

This kind of solves it. 

fine would be harsh, making thinking over the decision to join on the enemy side matter very much.

[Anolytic]

Sooo...you're saying that for every choice we make in PvP from now on, we are limiting our future choices in PvP? 

By definition we're all eventually only going to be able to join the battles of ONE other nation, if any. And that nation might be different for different people in the same clan. People from the same clan, sailing together, in the same group, will not be able to join the same battles. 

Did you take into account that alliances change? Or that a nation you're allied to might be enemy with another one of your allies? Or the fact that there are different clans within the same nation with different agendas. And sometimes you know that a particular clan is in an area or battle and you join against them even though you would not join against other clans in that nation.

Does every exploit have to be countered by an extremely restrictive mechanic that punishes all of us, especially the ones who never abused? Why can't we just go on reporting abusers and they get banned, but the rest of us can go on using the mechanics normally.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Anolytic

[kapteinsnabeltann]

I like IT 

finally can you get some honor for playing clean.

but @anolytic has a good point.

maybe it should be that you only can help your nation ?

 

maybe bring back alliance system ?😅

Edited June 11, 2020 by kapteinsnabeltann

[Malcolm3]

26 minutes ago, admin said:

From the next patch National flag Karma will be implemented (Reputation persistence). 

Can it be done a bit more smooth? Like:

• You join for Spanish being Brit - +1point to Spanish Karma
• You join against Spanish, being Brit, then -1 point to your Spanish Karma
• You get +5 points in your Spanish Karma, then you get some benefits from Spain (right to port Entrance or smth)
• You get, say -3 point in you Spanish Karma, then you can't join for Spain anymore and can't enter their ports even in traders.
• All this does not affected by direct honest flag vs flag attacks

Though alts problem arises here again.

[admin]

8 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

Sooo...you're saying that for every choice we make in PvP from now on, we are limiting our future choices in PvP? 

By definition we're all eventually only going to be able to join the battles of ONE other nation, if any. And that nation might be different for different people in the same clan. People from the same clan, sailing together, in the same group, will not be able to join the same battles. 

Did you take into account that alliances change? Or that a nation you're allied to might be enemy with another one of your allies? Or the fact that there are different clans within the same nation with different agendas. And sometimes you know that a particular clan is in an area or battle and you join against them even though you would not join against other clans in that nation.

Does every exploit have to be countered by an extremely restrictive mechanic that punishes all of us, especially the ones who never abused? Why can't we just go on reporting abusers and they get banned, but the rest of us can go on using the mechanics normally.

This change is a first step to a proper karma reputation systems providing real choice and real consequences to the actions.
For example in the future if you never attacked a British player you will be able to visit their ports and use their infrastructure. If you attacked a British player - why would port let you in even on a trader ship.

So yes. Your alliance and clan alliances will be affected forcing someone to make a choice and commit.
And it solves the griefing exploit.

 

[Frosty]

Lmao will you ever stop introducing revolutionary mechanics in a released game? This one is the best though - it will limit PvP incredibly.

[kapteinsnabeltann]

1 minute ago, Malcolm3 said:

Though alts problem arises here again.

Aye! And alt clans !

[erelkivtuadrater]

8 minutes ago, kapteinsnabeltann said:

maybe bring back alliance system ?😅

I feel like this is inevitable for a game like this  

[z4ys]

17 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

Sooo...you're saying that for every choice we make in PvP from now on, we are limiting our future choices in PvP? 

 

no you can attack all nations but it will limit your rvr alliance.

[Anolytic]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

This change is a first step to a proper karma reputation systems providing real choice and real consequences to the actions.
For example in the future if you never attacked a British player you will be able to visit their ports and use their infrastructure. If you attacked a British player - why would port let you in even on a trader ship.

So yes. Your alliance and clan alliances will be affected forcing someone to make a choice and commit.
And it solves the griefing exploit.

I think you're looking at this from completely the wrong side. At least the opposite perspective of most (PvP-)players. When people go hunting for PvP, they're not looking for what side in a battle they can help. They are looking for what side in the battle they can hurt. You're hunting pirates, and you see a battle against pirates, you want to join against pirates. You don't care if it's danes, brits or russians attacking the pirates. If the battle is open you're joining. But now... if you ever joined a battle against danes, brits and russians you're not gonna be able to fight those pirates. 

Don't you see how this is HUGELY exploitable?

Anyone who wants to be practically invulnerable better just bring a friend from another nation sailing with them while raiding. You see a gank squad or somebody chasing you that you don't wanna fight, just attack each other and you then have a better than even chance that your pursuers won't be able to join either side of the battle at all.

[erelkivtuadrater]

10 minutes ago, admin said:

This change is a first step to a proper karma reputation systems providing real choice and real consequences to the actions.
For example in the future if you never attacked a British player you will be able to visit their ports and use their infrastructure. If you attacked a British player - why would port let you in even on a trader ship.

so...... can we remove the ability to choose pirate as playable from star? and the players decreasing their karma turning pirate?  with a huge black warning of course  

[Knuddel]

I would say nice if the karma would reset once a day. But thats killing RVR fun.. and imagin joining battles in patrole area... When u go with a Lets say 3 Guy group 1 has ^negativ repu on GB, one has negativ Repu on Sweden and 1 has negativ reou on RU... sowhat battles u can join??? NON... 

[Malcolm3]

Just now, Anolytic said:

When people go hunting for PvP, they're not looking for what side in a battle they can help. They are looking for what side in the battle they can hurt. You're hunting pirates, and you see a battle against pirates, you want to join against pirates. You don't care if it's danes, brits or russians attacking the pirates. If the battle is open you're joining. But now... if you ever joined a battle against danes, brits and russians you're not gonna be able to fight those pirates. 

That's good point, I can sign for it

[AeRoTR]

Very interesting let's see where this is gonna go, and the consequences... very interesting... 

[admin]

12 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

 

Anyone who wants to be practically invulnerable better just bring a friend from another nation sailing with them while raiding. You see a gank squad or somebody chasing you that you don't wanna fight, just attack each other and you then have a better than even chance that your pursuers won't be able to join either side of the battle at all.

No. This is not going to be an exploit. Your case is only possible if they (gankers/pursuiers) were joining battles on your side before against the nation of your friend.

If they were joining battles on your enemy side - they will still be able to join and maybe sink you. So you friend wont really help you. But if they were joining against your friend - correct. They made this choice before and now wont be able to reinforce. But if they never attacked russia or joined against russia they can join on your side and sink your friend. But in this case they are probably your friends anyway.

100% reduction of exploits and greifing is better than 1/11 or 3/11th reduction in ability to join battles. Reputation system will bring more honor and will open up a lot more options for a player who honors his flag (combined with zero griefing). 

Attack reputation (attack affecting ability to interact with ports and players, even player trade) is also considered, but need to be thought through first . 

 

[Malcolm3]

Just now, admin said:

Reputation system will bring more honor and will open up a lot more options for a player who honors his flag (combined with zero griefing)

BTW - what about PVE battles? Will player with bad Spanish Karma be able to join for Spanish AI?

[Cpt Eole]

This mechanism would be an opportunity for the pirate nation to really make sense.
Pirates should be affected in another way by this mechanism.
They should be able to fight on any side without taking a karma malus. On the other hand, they would never be able to benefit from the infrastructure of other nations' ports.

Conversely, other nations should be able to join any side of a battle started against a pirate player without any karma malus against pirate nation. This could be justified either by some kind of pirate hunt by nations to make the waters safer, if one goes back against the pirate.

And if you go back to the pirate's side it could be considered as if you were hiring the pirate player and then you get a bigger karma malus to the nation you are fighting agaisnt.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Cpt Eole

[Lt Sekiro]

1 hour ago, admin said:

Hello Captains 

There is a mechanic in game where you are able to join enemy battles if they are open and support one side or another. 
It works like this

• You can support other nations in combat in open sea by joining one of the sides (any nation even if you just captured their ports)
• If your nation (for example Britain) have joined side A only British can join side A after that
• This has no consequences for the player and it opens up exploit ability that players use.
  • For example joining for the enemy side in one battle and then joining on your side in the next one and helping the enemy. 
  • This also creates confusion for new players and atomizes the unity in the nation. (When different clans are allied to different nations)

We are no longer satisfied with everlasting ability to false flag. 

Admiralty ruling:

From the next patch National flag Karma will be implemented (Reputation persistence). 

• You will no longer be able to join to support a nation if you have ever joined a battle against that nation.
  • For example. If you as Spanish captain side at least once joined the battle against Britain, you will never be able to join the battle on the British side.
  • This ruling does not affect direct honest flag vs flag attacks (Player from Spain attacks player from Britain or vice versa
• Your reputation levels will be indicated in the player info panel under your rank. 
• You will be able to clean your reputation if you made a mistake by paying a significant fine.

Please make precautionary changes in your allied relations and change nations if necessary. 

This mechanic might also spread on port entry rights (both into positive and negative ways).

 

So if i'm correct , if i join a battle 4v1 spain vs gb, win battle

Leaving battle and 1v4 spain vs gb , i can't help spain player?

So what happen for player like me who play only for br in small nation and not for flag?

Maybe add a smugler flag systeme For pvp?

You can use smugler flag only on port.

When used you can join any side but you don't block any side for player of you nation , can prevent player who join for close battle.

But you still lost reputation for nation you fight.
Like this you can ahve open pvp , but you have consequence for trade

Edited June 11, 2020 by Lt Sekiro