Forum communications

[StaleMemes]

I'm saddened to see it has gotten to this, I miss the times when the most controversial thing happening was Mr.Doran's chatban for spamming trinco duel requests.

I do have a question though, will the developers still read/see suggestions made on the forums?

I've been wanting to write up a huge suggestion for a while now about how to make pirates a realistic and unique class for solo players, I hope my delaying won't make it impossible to get that suggestion through.

[Sir Texas Sir]

9 hours ago, van der Decken said:

They have a red Announcement button. Perhaps people should get used to clicking that? But yes, I could see a pop up at log in that states, "Since your last log in, these things have changed:  ...."

But is it updated?  It’s useles if it’s not updated with recent hotfix/patch notes

[Norfolk nChance]

@admin

If I may comment on the public relations, FORUM and STEAM Discussion pages. This from my not professional gaming industry point of view. I’ve played NA-OW, tested NA-Legends, tested U-Age of Sail, tested U-Dreadnaught.

Testers Playing the Game

The first thing I notice is Testers stop testing and start playing the game. They don’t understand the difference. Me included. Both Dev’s and Testers are at fault here.

Dev to Tester contact

In the past like 9.96 Dev’s would disappear without giving timely updates or feedback for long periods of time. This has dramatically improved. However, if I may say not always perfect…

Suggest: Whether needed or not do a 1x a month YouTube Developers Update. Don’t roll your eyes its important. The FORUM and STEAM Dev Pages are fine but this simple action will reduce repetitive traffic. This will focus the testers into what you the Dev’s are trying and the problems your encountering. Be honest and open to an extent.

We all make mistakes and understand wrong paths are taken from time to time. If the TESTERs feel closer to the process, both GOOD and BAD or DIFFICULT a problem we feel closer to solving the issue or project. Language if an issue, The Community mods do it or have like @Jeheil interview you. Pre-structured of course.  Keep connected with TESTERs (clients) with a push (YouTube) rather than a pull from the FORUM mechanic.

The Rank/Craft wipe backlash may have been somewhat mitigated via this method. Instead of seeing multiple posts on both forums and YouTube with the repetitive complaint. Easy to say in hindsight.

Ideas, Suggestions and Criticisms

I admit I’m a Fanboy but haven’t always agreed with @admin and the Dev’s actions in the past. However, when expressing my point, I try to show it from multiple angles and give a balanced argument. I never start with “Admin you’re a dick…”. Any posts opening with this type of line should quite rightly ignored. Should the user be banned?

Me disagreeing with the devs…

https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/27041-idea-dreadnought-ea-easier-build-road-map/

Suggest: Have a Mod or @Ink reply… Please re-state your problem with a structured outline.

Testing with Dreadnaught and Age of Sail…

The closed group or smaller testing with these two titles works much better. However, with the smaller group you get a narrow views and feedback. That’s the downside. Has these games progress they’ll need a much wider tester pool and that pool needs managing?

 

Summary

Have a think about doing a NA-OW YouTube update as it stands now from a developer’s point of view. NOT and sales job, that’ll come. Then once a month Dev Blog YouTube update always on the same date 15th etc.

I believe the PR is simply client contact. Monthly reviews that mentions tester ideas and complaints makes the customers feel they are being listened too. Even if you don’t agree with them…

Take this with a pinch of salt from this amateur armchair admiral…

 

Norfolk nChance [ELITE]

Ps

A Balls of Steel move would be to Un-Ban everybody from the last month as an amnesty…

 

[Barbarosa]

Wow, just watched SidAlpha and @Banished Privateer videos on Youtube. It reminded me a story of a crow and a fox.

Crow and fox are sitting side by side while flying to their destinations in a plane. Crow presses service button and hostess came asking if crow needs anything that she can help. Crow replies "Not really, I am just assholling". Crow keeps repeating this for several times. Fox finds it very amusing and decides to join the party. Presses the service button and replies exactly in the same way. But enough is enough, hostess can't handle this anymore and throw both of them out of the plane.

Falling down Fox starts crying to Crow: "You see what you have done to me, soon I will be death because of you". Crow bewildered, replies "Sorry but if you don't know how to fly, why you are assholling?"

Seriously, why on earth you thought it is a good idea to retaliate/fight your customers if you can not fly?

[Meraun]

30 minutes ago, Barbarosa said:

Wow, just watched SidAlpha and @Banished Privateer videos on Youtube. It reminded me a story of a crow and a fox.

Crow and fox are sitting side by side while flying to their destinations in a plane. Crow presses service button and hostess came asking if crow needs anything that she can help. Crow replies "Not really, I am just assholling". Crow keeps repeating this for several times. Fox finds it very amusing and decides to join the party. Presses the service button and replies exactly in the same way. But enough is enough, hostess can't handle this anymore and throw both of them out of the plane.

Falling down Fox starts crying to Crow: "You see what you have done to me, soon I will be death because of you". Crow bewildered, replies "Sorry but if you don't know how to fly, why you are assholling?"

Seriously, why on earth you thought it is a good idea to retaliate/fight your customers if you can not fly?

For how long will be be discussing this matters? 100 Years? Get over it. @admin have shut down all communications anway.

[Ligatorswe]

36 minutes ago, Barbarosa said:

Wow, just watched SidAlpha and @Banished Privateer videos on Youtube. It reminded me a story of a crow and a fox.

Crow and fox are sitting side by side while flying to their destinations in a plane. Crow presses service button and hostess came asking if crow needs anything that she can help. Crow replies "Not really, I am just assholling". Crow keeps repeating this for several times. Fox finds it very amusing and decides to join the party. Presses the service button and replies exactly in the same way. But enough is enough, hostess can't handle this anymore and throw both of them out of the plane.

Falling down Fox starts crying to Crow: "You see what you have done to me, soon I will be death because of you". Crow bewildered, replies "Sorry but if you don't know how to fly, why you are assholling?"

Seriously, why on earth you thought it is a good idea to retaliate/fight your customers if you can not fly?

I dont think the Devs always has acted optimal. But the debate makes me sad. Like Sids video. It looks like neither Sid nor Banished has played any other early access, beta or alpha games.

What makes me think so? That part about minor changes on the Hercules.

The alternative is that they do know but says different. One might wonder why, in that case?

 

For heavens sake, why even bring that up? ALL EA, alpha och beta games are subject to change. Even dlcs. If dlc should never change then the game would stop developing.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Ligatorswe

[manuva85]

On 4/2/2019 at 12:08 PM, Miaowi said:

Slow clap forum

You finally did it. The (be respectful - the moderation team ) that weedle out of the woodwork to criticize every minutae of every admin announcement have finally scuppered the enthusiasm for discourse.

It's always the same folks too ... you know who you are

The thing is devs are not working fueled by their enthusiasm. THey are working being fueled by $$$ from sales. Just po point out facts NA sold on steam 100-200 thousands copies , so just do the math. Considering it;s a small indie studio with few devs it isnt that bad of a profit. Good enough to start acting as professionals. I kind of get ppl defending devs as if they were snowflakes who cant get any bad input or they will jsut go away and we cant have that to our beloved project Sweet talking other side in professional relationship wont end well.. THE TRUTH IS IT IS DEVS WHO SHOULD TRY TO GET COSTUMERS APPRECIATION NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

2 hours ago, Norfolk nChance said:

A Balls of Steel move would be to Un-Ban everybody from the last month as an amnesty…

Noble idea. Let's assume for a moment among the delinquents there are some who are able to appreciate the offer and learn better conduct.

Nevertheless... If I would be admin, I would exclude guys who are on a retaliation crusade in media, spreading disinfo and actively damaging my reputation and that of my game development studio in the hope to reduce my sales. There is a 'point of no return' willingly crossed by someone's hostile actions. Admin isn't Jesus, to forgive anything and offer his other cheek for more slaps to come.

[AeRoTR]

16 hours ago, van der Decken said:

They have a red Announcement button. Perhaps people should get used to clicking that? But yes, I could see a pop up at log in that states, "Since your last log in, these things have changed:  ...."

Hmm now do not be smart, may be some people are not as smart as you ?

Are you sure that red announcement button has updated patch information ?

Red button is good (why doesn't it flash if there are new changes or pop up?), but should be always up to date and even when you login to your game and port window, there should be one time "latest news/patch info pop up" and also latest changes patch notes from in game menu. Even hyperlink to forum patch update page is better than red button with not updated information.

Some of my clan mates did not know about "removal" of reinforcement thing, I do not think that they are not smart or they are stupid.

----------------------------------------------

@admin respect your decision, but please put some survey/poll into the game. Ask people how they feel about stuff or changes, do not even publish the results, just use it to make the game optimal for wider base of players. We are passionate about your game, so sometimes we can cross your border, you know this happens in relations  , we want it to be best.

Edited April 3, 2019 by AeRoTR

[Snoopy]

1 hour ago, Norfolk nChance said:

[..]The first thing I notice is Testers stop testing and start playing the game. They don’t understand the difference. Me included. Both Dev’s and Testers are at fault here.[..]

This is a very good point. The problem is that Steam doesn't really make it clear enough that you are a tester and everything in the game can change in EA titles. You have paid like a regular finished product (there are even DLCs available) and there is the lunacy of the review button during EA which the devs can be held hostage with.

I think the contract between GL and their customers ("there will be rough edges" both in the game and in communications) was somewhat better understood during the pre-Steam sales because in order to take part in the development of you had to go through a few hoops.. in other words you really really wanted to be here.

Having said that, mistakes were made on both sides. Example: going back on the stated goal of "xp = safe", even if that is the right thing to do (imho), will cause ruffled feathers and it was made worse by wielding the ban hammer so indiscriminately.

In the same vein, the video trying to list all the things GL has done to "wrong their customers" was over the line as well, the guy didn't even know which end on the rating system was up for crying out loud. If you go on a public crusade and use youtubers to broadcast your grievances you have broken anyone's trust. "Even" game developers need to be able to protect themselves. 

[mikawa]

12 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

Some of my clan mates did not know about reinforcement thing, I do not think that they are not smart or stupid.

This game requires so many special knowledge, that a documentation is mandatory. I understand people who are angry (remember we are all testing this game, how can you test without background knowledge?) about not existent information flow between devs and testers. It is a pain figuring all out from scratch. For example: where is written that you cannot enter a foreign port in a warship? New players do deliveries maybe in a lynx or prince only to find out they cannot enter destination port? So people spend a lot of time figuring things out instead of testing.

Patch notes are far too less informational.

Please, please, please: Give us detailed information or publish this game. I have no patience to go on like this for months.

Edited April 3, 2019 by mikawa
typo

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, mikawa said:

It is a pain figuring all out from scratch?

Despite its dizzying complexity, Naval Action currently lacks any kind of in-game tutorial mode, a fact which has led many to brand it too obtuse and difficult. However, Zasov claims that he and his team have had feedback from numerous players who say they actually prefer learning the ropes (no pun intended) for themselves.

"Some players do prefer it this way!" he says with a laugh. "They don't want the game to do a lot of handholding. We trust our player intelligence and most of the core mechanics are done in the way that players can learn them themselves."

Source: https://www.redbull.com/in-en/naval-action-interview-red-bull-games

 

Probably Devs believe this is still the case today... Although the tutorial is already in game meanwhile.

[mikawa]

12 minutes ago, Joernsson said:

Probably Devs believe this is still the case today... Although the tutorial is already in game meanwhile.

I did not mean tutorials. I mean explaining and documenting the game mechanics. Where is written that you have to convert fish to provisions? You only know you need them by trying to craft a ship. There are thousands little things a newbie must know. And even an "old" player like me has to figure out all changes by scratch using try and error. This is tedious.

Edited April 3, 2019 by mikawa

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, mikawa said:

I did not mean tutorials.

I know. I meant that Devs probably still think that numerous players [...] actually prefer learning the ropes [...] for themselves.

Which also includes the examples you brought up like explanations/documentation etc.

So overall I fully agree with you

 

 

[mikawa]

BTW: thanks for the interview. I didn't know about it yet.

[manuva85]

How can you give correct testers feedback without math in patch and basic testers tools? We used to have damage dealt reports, we dont have them anymore. We used to have controllable enviorament of lobbies, we dont have it anymore. How can you test and give factual feedback? Other than saying that you like/dislike current changes. Bcs that is what you get here, not actuall feedback that could help anyone.

[Norfolk nChance]

A Little update…

@Cetric de Cornusiac

I agree it is a balls out move, but how much more harm can it actually do? How many more bad reviews will be written? However, I think a YouTube wide post and some gesture like this might do some actual good.

@Snoopy

Just look at this on STEAM. Your point proved TESTER…? Bear in mind the FORUM is a tad aggressive. the #27 POST

https://steamcommunity.com/app/311310/discussions/1/1771511442689858469/?ctp=2

Regarding a YouTube saying what GL have done wrong is not quite what I was trying to get across. My fault entirely. The First YouTube would be were the game stands right now and what the Dev’s are looking at short to medium term. The Monthly Video, would highlight patches and forth coming items near term. Then maybe highlight well viewed posts or some ideas posted selectively…

“Norfolk’s Idea call the Equalizer, seems ok on the surface but impossible to code…”

“PVP on PvE Server was a popular topic, however our stance is final PvE is PvE…”

“We miss judge the lower BR attacker and exit or retreat window. Will play with some ideas on this…”

No need to answer all subjects, but it gives blanket wide coverage. Also what they’re looking at like the BR comment.

Dev Blogs

These are some Dev blogs, at least watch the EvE one…

ARMA II Basic Dev overall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srn2Sp6L708

EvE Online Dev Blogs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgt_aR0SOuY

WoWs Dev Diairies

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVmXzlhZvJVRF1k1CD98EmOXQYaVhLVUN

 

Norfolk

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Norfolk nChance

[vazco]

On 4/2/2019 at 11:47 AM, admin said:

Removing the open communication will remove the sources for frustration. 

It's drastical, but effective change. If you did this eg. 4 years ago, you would have better reviews and more sold copies of the game.

Just to clarify though - it's not about communication per se, it's more about going into discussion with people, and about social media crisis management when it appears. Teaching a mod or two how to handle crisis could be still helpful for you, even if you don't communicate directly 

 

 

Anyway, I wish you all the best. Keep up the good work! ( and your greatest work is when you create awesome stuff ) I know I'll buy everything you create.

[vazco]

22 hours ago, Palatinose said:

According to an old saying there usually is a silent majority, mostly more conservative. To both ends of the spectrum there usually is also a more radical and more noisy crowd. Open communication means to deal especially with these tips of the range. 

There is three basic points to consider for @admin imo:

1) do you believe to have created a better product thanks to communities feedback or not?

2) do you believe the consequences of open communication are a reason to sell more or less copies of your product?

3) are the ressources you put into open communication (nerves, time,...- as non-PR person it's not primary your job) worth it?

Pala, there are many ways to communicate. I understand that devs will not go into discussion with people, but will still post patch notes and read what people reply. There will be also mods who still will care for the community. This is a good change, and don't prevent exchange of information and feedback.

 

It works when on every idea, even the stupidiest ones, you say "thanks for feedback", or don't say anything, and then do what YOU think is best. You only risk misunderstanding someone's idea when you don't go into discussion. Weighting it out, it's less of a risk than enflaming people due to going into discussion.

[vazco]

20 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I said it many times in the past they need to do in game surveys cause most of the players never get on the forums. You want the best feed back than ask in game.  Just have a pop up when they log in and ask a few questions and be done with it.

Creating good poll and reading it's results well is hard. Creating KPI's and reading results is easier and better.

I think devs already have a good way to communicate - just talk with a few people, who can act as liasons. It doesn't even need to be formal  It doesn't even require you to define KPI's.

[vazco]

On 4/2/2019 at 11:47 AM, admin said:

cultural differences

Just to clarify, it's not a cultural difference. Same things work all over the world, with just slight modifications. Crisis management in social media works everywhere the same.

 

(ok, that's the last post form me. Being on a sick leave makes me spend too much time here  )

 

[admin]

14 minutes ago, vazco said:

I think devs already have a good way to communicate - just talk with a few people, who can act as liasons. It doesn't even need to be formal  It doesn't even require you to define KPI's.

Passionate people cannot control emotions but it creates rage and misunderstandings on both sides. Its not even cultural differences its just emotion control. 
Engaging in direct discussion (thinking you are talking to friends in the bar) does not work when some things you say are twisted and misrepresented.

There will be no more discussions in public.
There will be community liaisons selected from players and nations who will talk to a general public and pass information we should look at to us. 
More information will follow some time in the future. 

 

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, admin said:

Passionate people cannot control emotions but it creates rage and misunderstandings on both sides.
Engaging in direct discussion (thinking you are talking to friends in the bar) does not work when some things you say are twisted and misrepresented. There will be no more discussions in public.There will be community liaisons selected from players and nations who will talk to a general public. 
More information will follow some time in the future. 

 

Sounds like a better approach.  it's sometimes hard to read though all the finger pointing and tears.  As long as our feedback is getting to you, there's no need of a wide open forum discussion that accomplishes nothing. I'm looking forward to the release!

[Norfolk nChance]

15 minutes ago, admin said:

Engaging in direct discussion (thinking you are talking to friends in the bar) does not work when some things you say are twisted and misrepresented.

There will be no more discussions in public.
There will be community liaisons selected from players and nations who will talk to a general public and pass information we should look at to us. 
More information will follow some time in the future. 

@admin

Although I understand your action and point of view, I hope you’ll review this situation in the future. I Will continue to support you and Game-Labs, with half-baked hair brain ideas and suggestions over glasses red.

Closed testing for both U-Dreadnaught and U-Age of Sail has worked really well with the testers focusing on the Dev’s and each other’s feedback. The only worry is the tester group will need to grow as each game comes closer to development.

 

Norfolk nChance

[p i t]

21 minutes ago, admin said:

There will be no more discussions in public.
There will be community liaisons selected from players and nations who will talk to a general public and pass information we should look at to us. 
More information will follow some time in the future.

Then we the testers should have the right to chose selected people. Otherwise this is bogus