[POLL] Should 1st Rates be Considered "Rare"

[Slim McSauce]

With the new patch comes new outrage, a line has been drawn in the community between those who believe that 1st rates should be end game, hard to come by and costly to maintain; And those who believe anyone should be able to get a 1st rate with relative ease, all players of any creed should be able to sail a 1st rate.

WHERE DOES YOUR ALLEGIANCE LIE?

[Serk]

They can be rare once we have mon interesting 3rd rates. We have 3 more coming and that should spice things up  

[OneEyedSnake]

i believe they should be hard to get. but not impossible to get for smaller nations THAT CANT WIN  MORE PORT BATTLES THAN LARGER NATIONS IN A WEEK. 

[Anolytic]

I can't really choose either option. 1st rates can be rare and hard to make without being exclusive, which is what they are being made into.

[Sea Nettle]

This is literally POTBS all over again. The same exact discussions.

It will end up, quite frankly, in the same state.

RvR focus is precisely why this will happen.

To answer your question they should be as rare as the people who earn them choose to make them.

You can not, and succeed, make the game arbitrarily prevent success by a group of players who dominate others.

That rewards failure and punishes success.

This exact topic was on POTBS because France could field them at will and other less pvp inclined nations struggled to keep up in the race.

But frankly it wouldn't matter as those same nations would still win in lesser ships.

It would simply lower the cost of entry into RvR reducing risk, inflating the economy and create a disinterest from the players.

Imagine a culture of PBs in cutters. Everyone could do it endlessly but it would become tedious.

Risk and loss are what make the game.

It doesn't matter how much risk averse players cry otherwise the only aspect to this game that keeps players playing is succeeding with something on the line. The further that goes to nil the fewer players you retain.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Sea Nettle

[William Death]

No. Absolutely not. 

We've tried this numerous times. You cannot make first rates rare and have a happy playerbase. Forcing people to sail some class of ship they don't want because they can't afford/obtain the one they do want will cause them to quit the game.

 

Fine woods, conquest marks, victory marks, high grade notes...the list goes on. How many times will we try these failed ideas again before people realize that it is not what the majority of actual players want, only what some of the vocal forum-users want?

Your crafting level and warehouse contents should be the only things dictate what you can craft. I'm also against all types crafting permits and expensive mark-purchased blueprints.

Furthermore, encouraging nations to zerg the map every week in order to have first rates is NOT a good strategy. It encourages strong RvR nations to look for the weakest nations and take them out quickly, eventually moving on to stronger and stronger nations until there are only a few competitors left in the Victory Mark Race. We saw it on PvP2 when, after a few weeks, it was only GB and Pirates that had were in contest for the Victory Marks every week. US was in third place, but most other nations had only a few ports and no real chance to capture enough to even begin to contest GB or Pirates. I was in the Pirate Nation and it was encouraged to snap up all the neutral ports and hit any "easy targets" to quickly increase our dot count on the map and get the easy ports before GB did. Only once we ran out of those targets did we start to focus on fighting GB.

 

If you want to sail second, third, and fourth rates because it is "historically accurate for a nation to only have a few first rates," more power to you; but don't force others to comply. Oh, and here is something for the "this game is a historical naval combat game" crowd to think about: if a nation could afford to field a fleet of first rates with some smaller support ships, or a fleet of 3rd rates with a couple of larger supporting ships to a battle, which would it choose? You see, the primary purpose of building 2nd and 3rd rates was to save money, not because the 2nd or 3rd rates were an advantage in a line of battle. Their combat advantages were a shallower draft and a bit more speed to chase down a fleeing target (a 3rd rate chasing a frigate).

Maintenance cost should not even come into consideration. It is just silly: this is a video game, not a simulator.

[Jarlath Morrow]

2 hours ago, Anolytic said:

I can't really choose either option. 1st rates can be rare and hard to make without being exclusive, which is what they are being made into.

I agree. Even if 95% of all active players got heavily involved in RvR (we will ignore for now if this is desirable and/or practical), is it best to ignore the other 5%?

[Ligatorswe]

I have no problem with 1st rates being rare. Nut then the devs have to change the port battle system. They have to make it MANDATORY to bring in 3rd rates. Otherwise few can participate in PBs

That can be done by limiting the number of 1st rates that can participate in every portbattle. For example maximum 5 in the highest PBs. Maximum 5 2nd rates. The rest 3rd and 4th and such...

[Doug Maoz]

I have a hard time voting, because I feel they should have a special role (ie. they should not be able to go super fast) and should not be in every fleet, but it is wrong to lock them behind highly exclusive mechanics.

Exclusive rewards should be cosmetic or marginally better, not an entire ship class better. The thickness of first rates currently makes them the mandatory core for port battle fleets; everyone else has already well stated the snowball problem, so I won't go into it.

Making 1st rates more expensive may be a good approach to this situation, rather than placing them behind an arbitrary wall (PvP, RvR).

[Guest]

The devs really don't have a clue what they're doing, just introducing and withdrawing mechanics and calling it experiments and content.

Would happily see 1st rates being rare, but the best way to make it so (economy) is messed up yet again. Gotta love how they've made RvR super-important with one hand and a dumb mess with the other.

[Lz3]

They should be much rarer than they are now but you should NOT need to RvR and be in the top 3. 

[GhastlyGhost]

Should be rare ?

- Yes 1st 2nd should be rare ! But firstly need nerf. 2nd rate have no chance against 1st rate, the armor is too high. And we need BR adjustment. 

Should we go the way that Admin propose ?

- No ! They cant force the players to do RvR . They will just leave the game ....

And there will be snowball effect that nation that win will always win.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by GhastlyGhost

[Sir Texas Sir]

3 hours ago, Jarlath Morrow said:

I agree. Even if 95% of all active players got heavily involved in RvR (we will ignore for now if this is desirable and/or practical), is it best to ignore the other 5%?

I kinda like having special content stuck behind the RvR and PvP play of the game, but with that the other guys need content too.  Maybe they don't get the 1st rates we can get through RvR, but like POTBS had a trade ship that was a SOL that could still be brought into port battles. (a PvE means to get a SOL).  Thinks like this would improve the play.  Other wise if you want a 1st rate you need to do the game play to earn it and that is RvR.  It doesn't mean you have to do only 1st rate port battles. If you can gain the points through any port battles.  While I'm against giving freebies to folks that don't fight, but I think every one that is involved in a port battle (one battle) gets a VM at the end of the cycle. 1st place gets 3 victory marks, 2nd two and third one.  Pay out every three weeks so folks are still getting marks if they fight back but don't win the top three spots.  

[RedNeckMilkMan]

I wan third rates to be the main RvR ship. They are more interesting, more fun to sail, and more realistic to the time period. 

We desperately need BR adjustments in the game. Wasa needs a higher BR all of the first rates need much higher BR etc.

As far as victory marks. It is absolutely the wrong move to limit who can get them. It will only punish people for trying and failing at RvR which is what the Devs want. What is a nation/clan supposed to do when they lose their PB fleet? Just not RvR? Buy an alt and put it in the top nation. Try to get someone from the top nation to give them victory marks at an insane price? It is going to further kill the player base of this game. 

I voted for more rare 1st rates but not through only giving a couple of nations access. Through making them expensive assets or having a captain requirement. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by RedNeckMilkMan

[Hawkwood]

I don`t understand why AGAIN this beating on a dead horse. Why should 1sts be rare?

[Thonys]

Upgrades make ships RARE

 

not first rate in particular ,it can be any vessel to become rare

OT: so, no:  not in particular

(look at EVE  Officer cruisers and frigates , who are worth billions x  against a 10 million battleship)

(even the captain [clone] can be pricelessly  expensive a clone for 100 k or just 2 billion )

Edited December 22, 2017 by Thonys

[Hethwill]

Rare ?!... as in...Ships belonged to the Admiralty not the Captain.... Navy Board assigned Admirals/Captains ships for the missions.

Each captain in game is his/her own Admiralty/Navy Board.

Only way to make them rare is by - economic path ( irl how much time and millions of puzzle pieces it takes to build one ? ) or achievements.

Take your pick.

[Thonys]

18 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Rare ?!... as in...Ships belonged to the Admiralty not the Captain.... Navy Board assigned Admirals/Captains ships for the missions.

Each captain in game is his/her own Admiralty/Navy Board.

Only way to make them rare is by - economic path ( irl how much time and millions of puzzle pieces it takes to build one ? ) or achievements.

Take your pick.

Thats one of the reasons i said that using forged papers makes you captains rank first , but nobody seems to understand 

 

[Farrago]

Trick question in the poll. I believe 1st rates should be rare but believe the new mechanic is the wrong way to go about it.

Rare yes. But rare because they are expensive to obtain and maintain, not because they are exclusive to being on (or willing to change to) the “winning” team. They should also be rare because they have a highly specialized, single purpose: heavy fleet line ship port battles. When such ships are impenetrable by ships below their class or can be made fast enough and maneuverable enough that they are first choice in every situation, then that makes it out of balance.

Having exclusive capability to own op ships may be a nation’s goal in real a world, but it does not make a good game.

I’m fine with having map victors get special awards for their efforts but they should be getting “awards” anyway: easier access to trade and materials, freedom of movement, safety for newer players, etc. In a game there needs to be a path — even a more difficult one — for weaker nations to gain strength.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Farrago

[fox2run]

When we had multi-duras they where rare as you only had one dura first rare. The system worked pretty well and players fielded many ships on the map and could go to battle every night of own choosing. Why in heavens sake did you leave this very good system? Now the game is a dead horse.

[Hethwill]

Maybe because most players simply broke down a 4 dura ship ? Felt dirty without being 5... 

[Pada]

They should be super rare. Only one 1st rate allowed per clan.

[fox2run]

2 minutes ago, Pada said:

They should be super rare. Only one 1st rate allowed per clan.

Hell. With this elite-exclusive-approach you end up with only one player per nation anyway.

[Seraphic Radiance]

If NO wins then you know you have to apply YES. 

[Vintorius]

Just make it so players have to work up to crafting first rates themselves. Prohibit first rates from being sold in port(most players sell them for crazy absurd amounts anyways). That will force players to work towards something and get their crafting levels up but not make it impossible to obtain.  But at the same time it will make it so there's a bit less out there to be had.