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Chain shot limitations - advanced warning

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1 hour ago, Fletch67 said:

You are removing the one defence  the one chance newer players have of taking down the big bad wolf that hangs around in the green zone.

Whats happened? Has Captain reverse lost too many ships in the last few days? These guys will be sailing around taking off peoples masts at will but no one can counter it by chaining them down sometimes I really feel this game is set up so experienced players can slaughter noobs with impunity.

You will have limited ammo. To take out big bad Woolf you need a group with x2+ ammo amount. Teamwork will be a key. 

Edited by Project Pluto

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1 hour ago, Percival Merewether said:

That's not true, after the last patch almost any ship can be penetrated by smaller caliber guns - I often sail an Agamemnon using 4lb longs on the quarter deck (I have my reasons! :D). They frequently penetrate frigates in battle, sometimes ships of the line too.

Speaking of the pickle, it should not be able to stand up against a frigate in a fight. A small ship should almost always be ineffective in fleet engagements - there's a reason why John Richards Lapenotière didn't join the fight at Trafalgar to chain the enemy.

EDIT: @admin With this change, can I suggest the option to load different ammunition types on one broadside (eg. Chain for the weather deck and double on the gun deck)?

6lb longs do nothing at over 200m range against anything above an indefat (unless you get perfect angling and they are weak woods). And ok sure in real life an unrated vessel wouldn't stand a chance, but two things:

1 Letting them have chain still makes them stand a chance 1v1. Thats not what I was saying. A pickle will still die to a single broadside from most ships, but by staying out of range and maneuvering they could still have fun.

2. In real life 90% of people wouldn't be in LOWO ships of the line. Unrated ships are already severely underplayed and taking away one of the precious few ways they can be effective in fleet engagements is not going to help that. A lot of people seem to feel that small ships should only exist to train people for the "real" ships but I disagree.

All i'm saying is don't make this apply to unrated ships, or at least give them more broadsides worth of chain. 

Edited by Capt Aerobane
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I'm happy to test it but I think this is a mistake. Avoiding getting chained is a great part of the combat mechanics. It involves angling your ship and turning your sails and de-powering which costs you speed and positioning. You also do not know what your opponent is loading, so you might turn to avoid a chain but they have loaded ball and you take a broadside. You have to make a tactical decision as to whether to go for hull or maintain sail pressure and force your opponent into making a difficult sail or hull repair decisions.  I had a great Bellona v Bellona battle recently where this was happening, trying to out guess what the other was loading and which repair they would use.

As soon as chain is expended all these tactical elements are taken out of the engagement. Perhaps, as others have said, it can work with limit to sail repair and/or buff to chain damage. but as it stands I think this has just simplified the tactics and that's bad. Let's test.

 

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So with limited chain, the era of any small ship capping a much larger ship is over? The days of my surprise capping a 1st rate were nice. 

Unfortunately its beyond possible to demast a 1st with 9 pounders or anything lower :(

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37 minutes ago, pit said:

So with limited chain, the era of any small ship capping a much larger ship is over? The days of my surprise capping a 1st rate were nice. 

Unfortunately its beyond possible to demast a 1st with 9 pounders or anything lower :(

You can but only mizzen by shooting a lot of balls into the stern so they hit the mizzen root. Even 4pds can chop a vic mizzen that way.

Edited by z4ys

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11 minutes ago, z4ys said:

You can but only mizzen by shooting a lot of balls into the stern so they hit the mizzen root. Even 4pds can chop a vic mizzen that way.

After hours of balling and them repairing I might finally have my prize lol

Edited by pit

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9 minutes ago, pit said:

After hours of balling and them repairing I might finally have my prize lol

acutally its not that long maybe 6 good passes. At least with 18pd carros close distance.

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1 hour ago, Hullabaloo said:

As soon as chain is expended all these tactical elements are taken out of the engagement. Perhaps, as others have said, it can work with limit to sail repair and/or buff to chain damage. but as it stands I think this has just simplified the tactics and that's bad. Let's test.

I guess in some ways it could bring in new tactics. How do you know all of their chain is expended, maybe they saved some for later in the battle. So there could still be some tactics involved. With repairs and limited chain, you wouldnt want to use up all your chain at the start of a battle. But as you say lets test it and see how it works out.

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21 hours ago, RKY said:

Just watch reverse's wasa: Bermuda/fir

elite Spanish rig refit

navy hull

Copper plate

 

treatise on square sail

art of ship

optimized ballast

study sail

Combat carpenter

 

That is no naval warfare, that is an abomination.

 

 

There is a fine line between speed and armor. Finding that line is the difficult part. 

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@admin I really enjoy this idea, however I may suggest something, can you make it to where loading chain is an option for carronades? I like to run carronades on the top decks of my frigates a lot, and I normally just turn it off with F1, however the thing is if chain is limited I would like to focus my chaining on guns that I like to use the chain on, such as my medium cannons or Longs specifically. Rather than the 10-12 carronades loading chain automatically when I load it. Those 10-12 chain shot could be used better on my lower deck. Otherwise, I enjoy the idea of chain in a “strategic” sense rather than a spam sense, good job on the dev team for coming up with a brilliant idea.

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5 hours ago, Archaos said:

I am not so sure your assessment of this is correct. Ask yourself why players got into the habit of spamming chain and I think you will find that it was to overcome the speed meta. The only chance they have of killing you is if they first ensure you cannot run. If they had started doing serious hull damage to you, then you would probably have run.

You are correct they may have miscalculated by staying on chain too long without seeing that they were taking too much hull damage, but I do not believe limited chain would have allowed them win this battle. They may have had to start using ball when they ran out of chain, but without destroying your ability to run they would still not win the battle. You probably attacked them knowing that you had a good chance of winning and if it went bad you could escape.

As someone pointed out earlier, limited chain may make the speed meta more important unless repairs become limited.

ohhhh im not sure, take a look in this video from rediii, they kept chaining him even at 30% lol. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Wyy said:

ohhhh im not sure, take a look in this video from rediii, they kept chaining him even at 30% lol. 

Yes, and they lost the fight because of it?

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I still don`t understand why some are against this change. We had already UNLIMITED chains and the possibility to REPAIR only ONCE in a battle.

Again, from my pow, this change is basically the same, just the other way around.

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9 minutes ago, Eyesore said:

Yes, and they lost the fight because of it?

yes because you cant kill people with chain, i hope you know that

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3 hours ago, Project Pluto said:

You will have limited ammo. To take out big bad Woolf you need a group with x2+ ammo amount. Teamwork will be a key. 

Yes and the big bad wolf can mend sails while running away at full speed.

Limit chain if you have to make it realistic,    but why not make sail repair realistic,  make people  drop their sails to repair it. The more sails you drop the more repair you can do,  instead of doing it on the run.

This just stinks of purely stacking the odds against the less experienced but more numerical players.  Just so people can post look at me screen shots

Edited by Fletch67
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41 minutes ago, Wyy said:

ohhhh im not sure, take a look in this video from rediii, they kept chaining him even at 30% lol. 

I was not saying they were right to keep chaining, but that limiting the chain they had would most probably not have made any difference in that battle. The attacker had taken them on 1v2 and must know he had a good chance of beating them or of it started to turn bad he could run.

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4 minutes ago, Wyy said:

yes because you cant kill people with chain, i hope you know that

I'm not saying it's a smart thing to do :-p    But eventually they will learn?  I find that video a bad example, it's extreme chaining yes, it makes no sense to me either, i was hoping to see a nice fight, perhaps even a close one for Rediii ... it was just painfull to watch these guys.  There are videos were people don't protect their flanks, maybe we should limit broadsides, because new guys don't understand how things work yet?

I'm not questioning your quality as a player here (or anyone elses for that matter).

I don't mind testing, or end up playing with limited chain or even general ammo. Admin already stated (don't know how many pages ago) that there will be balancing and repairtests to go along with it. Nothing more to say about it.

It may be an opening to bring back limited repairs, atleast for rigging. Or make ammo have weight. Or make it possible to decide on your own personal preferencial loadout? Etc.

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29 minutes ago, Eyesore said:

I'm not saying it's a smart thing to do :-p    But eventually they will learn?  I find that video a bad example, it's extreme chaining yes, it makes no sense to me either, i was hoping to see a nice fight, perhaps even a close one for Rediii ... it was just painfull to watch these guys.  There are videos were people don't protect their flanks, maybe we should limit broadsides, because new guys don't understand how things work yet?

I'm not questioning your quality as a player here (or anyone elses for that matter).

I don't mind testing, or end up playing with limited chain or even general ammo. Admin already stated (don't know how many pages ago) that there will be balancing and repairtests to go along with it. Nothing more to say about it.

It may be an opening to bring back limited repairs, atleast for rigging. Or make ammo have weight. Or make it possible to decide on your own personal preferencial loadout? Etc.

im only in for the limited chain if they somewhat limit the repairs in one way or another either adding penalty cooldown for each repair,  make repairs weigh more or that you only can use a certain amount of repairs per battle, but also knowing you cant have a designated chainer in your team is also good i think

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Why not limit the amount of damage chain can do to sails? I think it's 69% now, make it 80% and if someone wants to chain at that point, let them?

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10 hours ago, Project Pluto said:

You will have limited ammo. To take out big bad Woolf you need a group with x2+ ammo amount. Teamwork will be a key. 

 

If the Woolf has northern carpenters you will need 3.

If the woolf has expert northern carpenters and steel toolbox you will need 4

etc etc..

If you going to limit ammo then limit them all, let players decide what load out they will have up to a "magazine weight" and balance via shot type weights.

 

Unlimited ammo is no more  rediculous than repairing while in battle. The amount that people can repair per use with buffs is to put it mildly silly, If you want to limit ammo amounts then there need to be serious down powering of current repair per use amount.

Edited by Dibbler
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39 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

 

If the Woolf has northern carpenters you will need 3.

If the woolf has expert northern carpenters and steel toolbox you will need 4

etc etc..

If you going to limit ammo then limit them all, let players decide what load out they will have up to a "magazine weight" and balance via shot type weights.

 

Unlimited ammo is no more  rediculous than repairing while in battle. The amount that people can repair per use with buffs is to put it mildly silly, If you want to limit ammo amounts then there need to be serious down powering of current repair per use amount.

I think each ship should have a set magazine/accessible cargo weight capacity and you can take whatever ratios or amounts of gunpowder, cannon balls, chain shot, and canister shot as you like so long as it is within the weight constraints. Have fire-ship fitting give no benefit to explosive radius, and have that be determined purely by the amount of gunpowder on board: If you want to go full fire-ship, you will have to lose a lot of combat effectivity by replacing ammunition and possibly also repairs with large amounts of powder.

Double shot consumes cannon balls 2x as fast, double charge consumes powder 2 or 3x as fast. If you run out of cannon balls, which is unlikely unless you spam, you can board or use other types, and if you run out of grape to you can always use scattershot (improvised grape shot made of nails, shards of glass, and whatever rubbish can be found) If you run out of gunpowder, you done screwed the hell up.

Have repairs linked to a similar system, repairs based on planks, rigging parts, canvas rolls, coardage/oakum, and spare cannons if you want to replace those.

This would have to be a separate compartment from the hold: This makes sense, as a lot of cargo in the hold might not be accessible while at sea, certainly not at short notice on a large ship. Light ships might not have this problem, again giving them a unique role to play in fleet combat. Solo duels would be largely unaffected because when fighting few opponents running out of ammunition is highly unlikely, again unless players spam ineffective broadside for a long time. 

This would make repairs more interesting and balanced, and also make life BETTER for light ships because they can now ferry supplies to larger ships in the middle of a battle or the open world which would be fun (at least for me). Perhaps let them transport crew as well and ditch "rum" although that would be of questionable use. I suppose a brig could drop off 80 or so crew and have a skeleton crew sail it out of combat, which while not a massive aide could be important for a SOL.

What do you guys think?
 

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18 hours ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

Please tell me how to get a 30% thickness ship. You have a distorted view of how the game works. Just because there is a stat cap doesn't mean it is realistically obtainable or viable. 

You certainly can't have them all capped. 4/5 and 5/5 ships are extremely rare. They require dozens of previously crafted ships and even then it is a toss up. Maybe 15% of players sail 4/5 ships and I haven't even seen a 5/5 ship in game.

The game has come a long way from impenetrable 1st rates with max repair. Thickness and repair have both been balanced. Speed has been balanced. Turn rates have been balanced. Dismasting is no longer broken.There is not a current broken meta in the game. I think the devs have done a good job of reworking systems in the game so far.

pls bring back 15kn 1st rates OMEGALUL

LO/WO: 20%, Navy structure: 2,5%, Cartagena caulking: 5cm (which is a hell of a lot more than 5% on most ships).. And no you can't reach all the hardcaps, IF you read my comment - I stated the hardcaps are WAY too generous, and the fact is that players will build the ships that increase their chances for survival - they will go for the meta and I don't agree that there is no meta. At the end of the day - I have mast upgrades - I don't get demasted - I demast the noob - the noob leaves the game because he has no way to counter the only playstyle that is left in PvP then.

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It's not the same. Repairs although too much add to the game. Limiting all ammos would be an annoyance. Chain should be limited because its a special ammo type that lets you play passively and do heavy damage with very little skill or tactics. 

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51 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

It's not the same. Repairs although too much add to the game. Limiting all ammos would be an annoyance. Chain should be limited because its a special ammo type that lets you play passively and do heavy damage with very little skill or tactics. 

I disagree.. Demasting doesn't require a whole lot of skill and it requires no tactics, and when the stacks are decked in favour of the mod-player then the game will be unbalanced and the noobs only defence is chaining. This change will force one type of gametactic and this will be unbalanced because skills has nothing to do with demasting, mods will decide the battles and more noobs will leave.

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5 minutes ago, Lars Kjaer said:

I disagree.. Demasting doesn't require a whole lot of skill and it requires no tactics, and when the stacks are decked in favour of the mod-player then the game will be unbalanced and the noobs only defence is chaining. This change will force one type of gametactic and this will be unbalanced because skills has nothing to do with demasting, mods will decide the battles and more noobs will leave.

Demasting objectively takes more skill than chaining. Don't forget you can also buff your sails same as your mast and even a 25% buffed mast will go down if enough shot hits it.

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