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Chain shot limitations - advanced warning


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3 hours ago, admin said:

 

  • This also means that outnumbered players will have easier time fighting against bigger groups who rely on active chaining as the ONLY tactic. 

Please start thinking about new tactics and of course.... discuss. 

I am interested in any new tactics suggestions and how you and the community envision that this will make it easier for smaller groups to fight bigger groups. In the past, one of the few tactics I saw for a smaller group to effectively deal with a larger force is by limiting their movements and ability to consolidate their forces so that they can be dealt with separately (or even to escape to fight another day). In NA that is often done by chaining or demasting.

 

1 hour ago, admin said:

 

  • Chain DOES NOT not have ANY tactical depth.
    •  It is just ololol clicker heroes currently. CS FN P90 has more tactical depth than chain in Naval Action.


 

1 hour ago, admin said:

For chain there is no tactical depth becuase you just click fire by KD. Tactical depth in shooting


Limited chain is a win win feature. There are no losers
If you plan to fight and you fit for strong rig it will be harder to chain you non stop
If you plan to run, if you really really want to run limited chain will actually make running easier.

 

While there are obviously some chain griefers, I disagree with your assertion that use of chain is not tactical. See my above comment.

Anyway, we don’t know how limited chain will be so let’s test.

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Captains Amount of chain shot carried by a ship will be limited next patch (so called tutorial patch) No perk will be required for use of chain (at least for now). Reasons Historically s

Limiting munitions and not repairs is a mistake imo. Also, players that cannot dismast are now hurt even more.... 

Limited chain and maybe even limited grape is the final icing on the cake perfecting our amazing  combat model. Of course it will be paired with damage changes and repair tuning. Captains asking th

1 hour ago, DeRuyter said:

For anyone questioning where this idea came from it has been discussed before, see this thread:

 

For the historical context @Fluffy Fishy posted numbers on the HMS Victory in that thread:

Figures for HMS Victory:
Round, 32pdr: 2400.
Round, 24pdr: 2800
Round, 12pdr: 4200
Round, 68pdr Carronade: 84
Grape, 32pdr: 90
Grape, 24pdr: 112
Grape, 12prd: 168
Grape, 68pdr carronade: 7 Case shot, 7 Grape in tin.
Double headed (Chain/Bar), 32pdr: 90
Double headed, 24 pdr: 84
Double headed, 12pdr: 126
Paper cartridge (Gunpowder), 32pdr: 2580
Paper cartridge, 24pdr: 2996
Paper cartridge, 12pdr: 4728

From my post on the USS Constitution:

In 1797 she carried 85 round shot per 24 lb gun and 15 chain per 24 lb gun. In 1813 she carried 100 round and 40 chain. I also note that no chain was carried for the carronades by either ship. Each navy had different standard load outs of specialist shot.

Obviously now we have multiple repairs so that will have to be balanced, but @admin has already noted that will happen. The announcement is about limiting chain shot and does not even talk about how much chain shot you get, yet the doomsayers are out in force. At least wait and see how it effects your game play before ranting about the change.

 

So limit all ammo types, and I expected SoL to carry less chains due to the very role of the ship. That the connie ends up with almost a third of its ammo being chains is a bit surprising tho..

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4 hours ago, admin said:

Captains

Amount of chain shot carried by a ship will be limited next patch (so called tutorial patch)
No perk will be required for use of chain (at least for now).

This is right up there with the best changes you've ever made to the game. I will start playing again once this patch goes live. Thank you very much.

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2 hours ago, admin said:

Look at the difference

  • Hull damage has some tactical depth
  • Raking and grape has a lot of tactical depth
  • Chain DOES NOT not have ANY tactical depth.
    •  It is just ololol clicker heroes currently. CS FN P90 has more tactical depth than chain in Naval Action.

It's a  serious misconceptions.

Example:

1 st group - 3x midspeed ships

2nd group - 2x fast ships (fir/fir) + 2x heavy lowspeed

1st make decision to run
2nd chasing

The only right tactics for mid and fast ships now is sail shooting. It's sail wars and its big part of gameplay now, continue decrease enemy speed until heavy and slow mates can effective shoot balls. And it's not have tactical depth?

If it isn't pleasant to you that someone long and absurdly shoots chain  - make efficiency of their firing about zero, but leave it for those who are able to use it.
1 vs 1, 10 vs 10 - same double/charge quantity it's normal (maybe) because it's buff and I can use balls, but chains....

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3 hours ago, admin said:
  • Not agressive (you can outrepair damage)

Why everyone has to be aggressive?

Provide a possibility to play not so aggressive?  Play less aggressive but smart for example?

Too many repair kits simplify the game, make it one dimensional.

Makes also wind less important from combat perspective as it forces you to be aggressive.

 

3 hours ago, admin said:

When replying to Christendom i think - i mentioned that of course limitations of chain will come with changes in their damage and tuning of repairs
The main goal is simple
Remove mindless chaining from any distance
Force the player to think when to shoot and at what angle. 

Look at the difference

  • Hull damage has some tactical depth
  • Raking and grape has a lot of tactical depth
  • Chain DOES NOT not have ANY tactical depth.
    •  It is just ololol clicker heroes currently. CS FN P90 has more tactical depth than chain in Naval Action.


 

This sound really good.  Please don't fail with the patch.

 

3 hours ago, admin said:

Wind change makes speed less relevant - as we want you to not run but fight. If you don't plan to run - wind change brings variety.

This also makes sailing profiles slightly less important.

You are able to keep the wind, maybe you have invested in a ship and upgrades that make it even easier.  Then the wind changes and takes your advantage.

Changing a bit too often right now?

...

I said earlier that the game is turning more and more SOL oriented. I hope you understand that with this change you may actually make SOLs even stronger. SOLs have now more firepower than ever before to shoot masts and SOLs have now stronger masts than ever before as well. Now we are about to reduce chain shots?

Some love for 5th and 4th rates? (In general, not just with chain shots)

Edited by Cmdr RideZ
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5 hours ago, admin said:

Casual PVP? Naval action is not a casual game. In fact we always said IT IS NOT CASUAL. 
Naval Action is a hardcore, realistic, and beautifully detailed naval combat sandbox immersing players into the experience of the most beautiful period of naval history - when sailing ships ruled the seas.

Bit sad to see the reply against a legitimate concern that a number of players have (spread across the player base). Personally making PvP more difficult for only newer players doesn't make it 'hardcore'.

Not exactly related to the thread but for me PvP needs to have real consequences for mistakes and failures to be hardcore. I'm all for new players having their world kicked in when they do something stupid but there needs to be that sort of risk for everyone in the food chain, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be that kind of danger for many of the big fish atm.

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3 hours ago, RKY said:

 

about what to say, if you can not even see the characteristics of my ship through the included stream?)

know why I use such ships? because a very large part of the "smart and professional players" hunt me through the stream, and I have no choice but to use such ships. Otherwise, I can remove the game, or stop streaming. I'm not going to do this, so I take it and adapt it.

sorry for google translate :D

 

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More close combat = more fun :)

Today it occured that a Bellona rigging shocked a Victory with chains from close distance. 26% sails in one broadside. Sure that's not something occuring too often but boiii I'm glad those brainless tactics of spaming chains from big distance could be reduced. As @Havelock said, those battles in which people are so afraid that they chain one to death while heavily outnumbering their foe are the worst. No problem in losing them, @HachiRoku agreed the many should win this fight. But instead of being killed in ten to fifteen minutes (because one wants to fight and doesn't even run) one only gets hello kittyin chained to 40% (twice!!!) so one barely goes 4knots downwind and therefore can't move - is just annoying (I would say it's close to griefing, the French, DNP and WTF would probably  say it's smart gameplay). In this style there is no skill. Chain can and should be devastating if used from proper distance and angle. 

Edit: Chaining is still easier than demasting. 

Edited by Palatinose
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37 minutes ago, Borch said:

One more thing. People providing you with feedback before change is not useless feedback but developement cost reduction. Some things are easy to predict.

Simple guide on what is feedback and what is not as you seem to be missing the point

This is Feedback
I don't like this feature AT ALL it really sucks for my playstyle because a)..... b)...... c).....  it would be much better if you did this   x)  y) z)

This is Not feedback
Idiots, this is a final nail in the coffin of a dead game 

We are all members of same community and are here to have a good time playing and making the game.
People who will interfere with building a nice friendly community will get removed first from forum then from game chat. As they just scare the new players away. Here is the reminder on the rules.

Now lets get back to chain. 

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5 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

I'm sorry, but if you have nothing smart to add, remain silent and stop insulting. Maybe @Lars Kjaer will calm you down. Players from Prussia can confirm my claims about Epic Events, I've been doing them since Devs added them to the game, just ask:

@Vile Executioner @Mikocen @vazco @Wyy @Tutanxamon or anyone else that has done them with me.

players that have to do epic events with chain. Git Gud

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5 hours ago, admin said:

Video of at least one of them? 
Maybe i am wrong and video will prove me wrong. But data shows that majority of battles end  pretty fast
there only reason for a long battle is when both sides are extremely passive, or extremely accurate and skilled. Being passive is and was discouraged historically as it always led to indecisive battles .  I will gladly check the video. 

You are KOTO right? Whenever i see your battles on the streams they always end up with full or partial annihilation of one of the sides.
PS. Patrol battles always end with death. 

think the problem is more that if you are 5 frigates vs 1 3rd rate or something they can withdraw from the battle and come back with basically full HP, and rinse and repeat

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5 hours ago, Pada said:

We don't even know how much chain we will have. Can't we just try it out instead of raging on the forums. Now we have the time to try things out at release it's too late.

people forget even thought it has been in a early access state for some years that it still is in development. Imagine this forum 15 years ago when Blizzard were worked on WoW, people would rage of how hard missions were and how long time it would take to travel.

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 I think done this way is a bad idea to be honest.

 Why not just make chain/grape/ball have a weight that adds to overall cargo weight?   That way people can decide to carry more ammo but at a price of top speed affected with heavier ship.

Seems bad that you limit only 1 ammo type, surely is better to let players decide ammo load out using cargo space as the limiting factor.

Edited by Dibbler
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@admin

What if instead have the constant 15 min timer on repairs, it increases itself each time you use an repair with an shared timer as it is.

You use Hull repair -> next repair either is rig or hull can  be used in 10 mins.

You use Rig Repair -> next repair either is rig or hull can  be used in 15 mins.

You use Hull repair -> next repair either is rig or hull can  be used in 20 mins.

You use Rig Repair -> next repair either is rig or hull can  be used in 25 mins.

 

Same with the grape just as it isn't any shared timer on it with the rig and hull repair, but with this you would have to make wise decisions on when to repair, what to repair and it wouldn't feel like you could repair all the time as you basically can now. 15 mins in battle feels like a blink of an eye.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

This is Feedback
I don't like this feature AT ALL it really sucks for my playstyle because a)..... b)...... c).....  it would be much better if you did this   x)  y) z)

Тяжело писать по английски много и глубоко.

Итак.

Мне вообще не нравится ограничение книппелей потому, что:
1. Парусный бой очень выжный аспект игры, а вы скорее всего его сломаете, пусть и на какое-то время.
2. Какую прожать ремку - сейчас наиважнейшее решение в бою, система сдержек и противовесов.
3. Комбинированная группа из легких кораблей перехвата и дамагеров это нормально. Единственное, что могут делать перехватчики это стрелять по парусам, вытягивая из противника ремонты, по метру выгрызая дистанцию для основных сил. Толком надамажить тяжа они не в состоянии, только подставиться. Отстрелялись и на выход? Не могу удержать остатки противника в бою, потому что нечем? 
4. То, что ганк группа не может вылезти из боя в зеленке, потому что им медленно и верно убивают парус это тоже правильно. Не имея в достатке книппелей реализовать свое численное преимущество зашедший подкреп не сможет.
5. Вообще непонятно, как это балансировать. Ограничение на даблы и чарджи - естественно и понятно, т.к. есть альтернатива в виде обычного ядра. Эффективной альтернативы книппелю нет. В бою 1 на 1 нужно одно количество, в бою 10 на 10 совсем другое. Сколько давать?
 

имхо будет лучше если Вы:
1. Не будете трогать книппели,  в игре хватает к чему приложить руки
2. Если причина *действительно* в бестолковых (как вам кажется) действиях игроков - снижайте эффективность бестолковой стрельбы, и пусть себе балуются.

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11 hours ago, Lars Kjaer said:

So how low do we want the player numbers? As it is it is not a SKILL based game but a game where the battles are decided by: Shipwoods, upgrades and knowledge slots in that order. 

This is just false. How do you explain when two equal fleets fight and one wins?

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16 minutes ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

This is just false. How do you explain when two equal fleets fight and one wins?

How often do you see two equal fleets meet? - At the end of the day it's the shipwoods, upgrades and shipknowledges that decides the outcome. How come I hardly ever gets demasted? - I run mast upgrades. Could everyone do it? - yes. Can everyone afford it? - no. If this was supposed to be a skill based game why then can a ships gun dispersion be diminished by 40%? or the ship thickness by 30%? or the ship turning speed by 25%? In the end it all adds up and with the introduction of 5/5 ships it became even less balanced. It's not the player that decides the outcome of the battle it's far more often the upgrades, coupled with the insanely high hard caps, that decides the outcome of the battles. New players simply cannot compete in terms of ressources and will as a result more often than not experience what they perceive as unfair fights and leave the game as a result. And frankly, judging by both some players replies and the arrogance of the developers I can't blame them.

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6 hours ago, Palatinose said:

 

Edit: Chaining is still easier than demasting. 

I'll ignore your baseless comment on DNP (as I recall you tend to lose a lot of ships in the CS area.. We're ofc thankfull for the easy PvP marks) and just highlight the area I simply don't agree with. Chaining IS easier than demasting - because some ships are nigh impossible to demast due to mast upgrades and the moronic mechanic that enables mast hp to go from 1% to 100% in a hearthbeat - for those that knows that mechanic ofc. This however has nothing to do with skill but everything to do with upgrades - against a noob with no knowledge of the mechanic, no logic behind the mechanics and no access to the upgrades needed to make your ship demasting proof it will only mean that every PvP match is a onesided afair with no learning curve because no new player sticks around long enough to learn anything..

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14 minutes ago, Lars Kjaer said:

How often do you see two equal fleets meet? - At the end of the day it's the shipwoods, upgrades and shipknowledges that decides the outcome. How come I hardly ever gets demasted? - I run mast upgrades. Could everyone do it? - yes. Can everyone afford it? - no. If this was supposed to be a skill based game why then can a ships gun dispersion be diminished by 40%? or the ship thickness by 30%? or the ship turning speed by 25%? In the end it all adds up and with the introduction of 5/5 ships it became even less balanced. It's not the player that decides the outcome of the battle it's far more often the upgrades, coupled with the insanely high hard caps, that decides the outcome of the battles. New players simply cannot compete in terms of ressources and will as a result more often than not experience what they perceive as unfair fights and leave the game as a result. And frankly, judging by both some players replies and the arrogance of the developers I can't blame them.

Not sure if hyperbolic or ignorant of stat caps and mod limitations in game

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11 hours ago, admin said:

Can you elaborate in detail how does green zones relate to limited chain?

The statement have very little to do with the green zone. But very much in the shift in policy. 

When you made green zone it was to protect new and “PvE/soft core PvP” players. As you said at that time, if all the sheep left, what would be left for the Wolf.

Limit chain will hit the soft players harder than the hardcore player. Is that a problem? Why, well they can’t snipe an demast a ship in 10 min. So they will proberly just loose all mast and wait for the hardcore player to kill them of.

In my expirience players only fight if they belive they have a chance ore if they are forced to it. But NA is a game, not real life, so what happens if players are forced to do something they don’t want. They stop.

Maybe to go hardcore is the way, I don’t know. But when all the sheeps are gone, what then?

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50 minutes ago, RedNeckMilkMan said:

Not sure if hyperbolic or ignorant of stat caps and mod limitations in game For a statement to ignorant it would need to be either informed or uninformed. This is easy to clarify.

@admin I believe my statement on the hard caps are correct; could you confirm or deny these hard caps?

Turning speed: -25%

Sail hp: +30%

Armor hp: +30%

Hull thickness: +30%

Gun reload: -30%

Gun dispersion: -30%

speed: 15,5 kn.

If the numbers are correct then every player can use this website for upgrade infos and try jugling the different knowledges and upgrades on a 4/5 or 5/5 ship and see if they are still "ignorant" enough to believe that skill has anything to do with this game anymore.

http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

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