Doubloons in shipbuilding

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

31 minutes ago, Jan van Santen said:

This. It also had 2 more advantages: 

1) you could fedex precursors to a free port near your crafter

2) Very little randomness. Quality could be added by "gold coins" iirc.

And yes, permits obtained by crafting also made sense, bec specialized crafters gained an advantage, while the uprising ones could still gain exp by crafting precursors.

I never understood why you gave up that system and put effort into a worse crafting....

"Never change a winning system"...and that was, what you did to crafting imho. 

It took a while to assemble a ship this way. I know the industry system I described but in those times I already did it all by myself.

So that caused people to complain, they wanted quick results and sail out to pew-pew. (now they have dlc ships for immediate combat...)

Whined about having to click often...

While people like me enjoyed the anticipation until a ship was completed. True, it took a while. Always some part was missing... but you had a feeling of achieving something big.

ahhh - 3 gold ingots missing... ahhh - oak used up again for a part before in the list... ahhh - where I can buy more oak now? So it went. And it wasn't bad.

The main argument however is, all players in clans organized to contribute to the ship building by delivering sub parts collected experience, like some of us point out.

--

PS: The gold coins for improving the result however I don't remember, it was before my time (came to NA in late 2017). I belong to the player faction who likes randomness and less predictability, so all was fine with me.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Cetric de Cornusiac

[van stiermarken]

2 hours ago, admin said:

which old crafting are you both talking about? The Unlock one? Like craft 10 trincomalees to unlock a constitution or what crafting?

no, the old one in the early days. where you needed carriages and tar and different type of ship planks for instance and such things. it was more or less a 2 day job where one or more people where crafting the parts and one then could build the ship (because of not so much labor hours available).

Edited June 2, 2020 by van stiermarken

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, admin said:

which old crafting are you both talking about? The Unlock one? Like craft 10 trincomalees to unlock a constitution or what crafting?

The one where it meant something to be a level 50 crafter cause you could craft Master Craft stuff.    Honestly levels mean nothing other than more labor hours now and even than you don't even have to be maxed out to have enough.   

2 hours ago, rediii said:

The craft barrles, medium notes etc one I guess

It was fun, but I do think there was way to many mats back than, it did need to be toned down a bit.  Just not completely dumb down.

1 hour ago, Christendom said:

yet it created a need for additional crafters in the clan rather than alts + labor contracts.  Also helped new players earn cash (that's how I started out) and allowed them to learn the ropes with entry level crafting.

Yep I know ya'll lost a crafter or two when it changes and so did we along with many others.  There are folks that actually liked that stuff over PvP and it gave them something to do.  I remember back than we had folks that would dedicate to nothing but crafting.  We just made the sub parts for them and they would make us ships and we never ran out of them.   Hell it was partly the reason I have 6 chars.  Well 5 back than was casue I used almost all but two for econ buidling and crafting my own ships.  Now that we have so many building slots and they dumb down crafting so much I only play with three chars in Dutch and one pirate.   Back before I had all 5 in pirates and the 6 was in Dane with the chinese to play with them during there prime time.

Don't get me wrong I kinda like how it's more simple now, so I don't understand why it's being changed once again.   For those that don't like crafting they have DLC's and can just buy.  Sounds like we are running out of crafters so they are trying to make it simple for those that want crafted ships but have no craftes.  Why not give more incentive to crafting than make it even more dumb down?   I said in the past there is no incentive any more to craft......cause DLC make for cheap ships.   If a crafter got higher odds at better ships than DLCS (which I think should never be purple or gold, should only be blue).   Also stop hiding all the permits that folks want the most behind RNG loot drops.  Keep that as a free way to get the permits, but put them all back in the store and you will see more folks crafting ships.   

Maybe allow crafters to pick the perk that the ship gets (Fast, Strong, Sturdy, etc) with chance of the better perk?

Maybe add in regional bonus to that list that the AI get, why can't a certain region make the Bermuda refit, another regoin another one?   Players should be able to have a chance to craft all those too.

There are so many things they can do to make crafting more intersting and get players back into it instead of trying to dumb it down.  Specially when REALS are a bitch to grind unless you do a bunch of trade runs all the time.   We are going to be right back where we are, doing a bunch of PvE to get crafting resources.

[Stilgar]

Please correct me if I am wrong, the whole point of dubs in crafting was slow down crafting of SOL's and make frigates ubiquitous. However, more recently devs changed mantra from "frigates must rule the waves" to "3rd rate were back bone of the navy" , and things have changed ... Namely, with 3rd rate and 1st rate DLC as well as ability to capture any AI ship, dubs in crafting make no sense. So, the move makes perfect sense to me.

Furthermore, as far as I can see players prefer to sail throw-away ships, DLC ships, whereas properly crafted and fitted ships are fewer in between, mainly sailed by veteran players in organized groups. With dubs removed we might see more decent quality and affordable crafted ships for sail, but more importantly players might be less hesitant to sail those. 

On a more general note, let's not pretend economy or crafting was ever a strong point of this game. Most endure the grind, imperfect roe rules, very basic rvr, and peculiar DLC strategy for the sake of experiencing the combat. All those secondary aspects need to be accessible, be a bit fun, give players to do smth between battles and create opportunities for battles. That's it.

As for dominance of SOL's in OW and rvr, this clearly remains a problem regardless this change and it should become devs priority to give to all ship types / rates some place and role in the game.

P.S. Btw, removal of dubs form crafting might result in some depreciation of dubs, but now players can divert them to the infrastructure investments, which still require considerable amounts, certainly for casual players. If infrastructure investment for individual players will be become more accessible, loss of those will be less painful and rebuilding easier. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Stilgar

[Creme Anglaise]

The thing ppl complained about with the old crafting system was you couldn't type 500 in a box and make 500 of an item you had to click soooo many times, otherwise it was popular and for the love of god let ppl get crafting xp for all crafting. Give a bonus if crafting ships if you absolutely must.

[Robert Lance]

The only thing the Devs need to be doing, is to work on getting the population back up. Anything they are playing with in the game that is not working towards that end is fricken waste of their and our time.
Devs it not easy to balance this type of game play. I understand that. But you keep dicking around in a lost cause. Give people that like to craft what they like to do. It keeps them happy. The biggest problem I see with the direction the Devs have been focused on has been group play. Will here is a simple fact and a reality check. If you do not have the people to group up with. That becomes a pointless feature in the game. Most of players that are left are solo players. When we get a good population up and running then bring back the group features of the game. 
 

I am one of the few players that made the Devs change the game. Without saying anything to them. I had a lot of players say it for me. I am the very person that brought the basic cutter into play. When they first put in the PvP zones. I was the one who used the basic cutter to sink many ships in the PvP zone. The players I sank complained right off the bat. The first thing the Devs changed was the combat marks reward. It was giving to much. Even with the change. I was still making a lot of combat marks. Plus getting more PvP kills. Then the Devs added the kill ring. Which helped me even more in PvP zone, because they could not run from me. I even warned players to not try me. Some players would either just run out into the kill ring and die. Or just surrender. I then showed others how to do what I was doing with the basic cutter and they would continue to show their friends what they had learned from me. Till it got pretty big. That the Devs had no choice but to change the basic cutter. Which they did at the release of the game. They took the 6 pounders off the basic cutter. Then put the 4 pounders on that you see now.

I believe it was a very good change and believe the Devs made the right choice in doing so.
I had my fun with the basic cutter, but it needed to be changed.

We as players that like the game need to change as well. Players need to see past their play style and be open to other players style of play. We really need to find a end game, to the map for the rvr. So that there is a fresh start. That is the only true way to keep people interested in the game. Some how we need to have a map wipe that allows us to keep our ships and stuff that we collected.

I made the Devs change the game and for the better. Question is can you the players now playing the game, make them change it for the better.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Robert Lance

[Farrago]

13 hours ago, admin said:

Often people have imaginary solutions to real problems due to lack of experience or because they seen it working somewhere else (without full understanding why it works somewhere else).. Advice based on Intellect without experience can bring more harm than good. 

crafting is not good in 99% of MMOs and lots of pvp games somehow survive without crafting.  99% of posters who suggest vibrant dynamic economies have never implemented them anywhere and have zero clue how hard (almost impossible) it is. 100 people teams were not able to do it, demanding vibrant economies from a team with 1 programmer is more than puzzling.

Crafting was added by player suggestions (players did not want to capture ships and wanted to build them), it was always advertised as basic (even in steam greenlight), you got what we advertised, your dreams about HMS POTENTIAL, will always break on the iron broadsides of USS REALITY.

Of course. Thanks for taking the time to respond. My comment was not meant as negative criticism of your team’s decisions nor to imply crafting/economy was necessary for a successful game. I apologize if it seemed so. I realized long ago that we weren’t going to be able to head in that direction. My hundreds of dollars spent and continued thousands of hours and daily play evidence that I love this game. Thank you for making it.

It was just wishful/hopeful thinking for a future game. I’m like that. Hell, I even want someone to invent a transporter like in Star Trek for my real life use.

Fair sails.

 

[Never]

2 hours ago, Stilgar said:

Furthermore, as far as I can see players prefer to sail throw-away ships, DLC ships, whereas properly crafted and fitted ships are fewer in between, mainly sailed by veteran players in organized groups. With dubs removed we might see more decent quality and affordable crafted ships for sail, but more importantly players might be less hesitant to sail those. 

This is a fantasy. In what world you think doubloons are keeping people from crafting competitive ships? People don't craft more cause of seasoned wood. What's the point in a Wasa or Bellona that costs no doubloons if you don't have seasoned wood for it? Who wants to sail a non seasoned into open waters filled with DLC redoutables and DLC Victories. 

If you wanted to make crafting easier then it would make more sense to remove seasoned wood or make it a lot easier to get. Doubloons are not the bottleneck of ships crafting. 

[SeaBrig]

10 hours ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

sorry to say, but that´s also a ship-meta-issue and not only dlcs fault. many players seem to never sail inferior ships.

i think the wrong ships are locked behind permits, say the Cherubim frigate was the only 5th rate that didnt need a permit, we would see alot more frigate gameplay atleast from other ships such as essex, belle poule, pirate frigate etc. But when you have the trincomalee, WITH NO DOUBT the third best 5th rate (behind endymion and diana) available for no permit you would be stupid to craft an inferior ship for such a small difference.

Of course it would be hard to balance it out now since we have a dlc 4th rate, 3rd rate and 1st rate, but it would help alot imo to bring some varieties

[Captain TShirt]

On 6/1/2020 at 3:55 AM, admin said:

Doubloons in shipbuilding will be removed.
Please avoid overspending as ship blueprints will change this week

The cost progression will be based on power that patch and will only require reals (pieces of eight)

Hell yeah! Love it.

Since starting the game in August of last year, I've NEVER seen ship sale prices outstrip their Doub cost (at exchange rate) enough for it to make sense to build/sell ships as an income source vs. selling the Doubs straight-up.

Doub supply was always too pinched for the exchange rate to settle down -- this is a great change. Good call, devs. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Captain TShirt

[Conte D. Catellani]

6 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

I mean the system with intermediate parts, which created sub-industries with the players and production chains.

Like players who specialized in making light/heavy carriages, knees or whatever and delivered them to the shipcrafters who put all together.

And all of them gained experience.

I think it was in autumn 2018 when that was exchanged for current system.

i noticed  some post in the forum about that system and i was really sad to dont try it..anyway now a solution like this one  will just reward big nation with big clans well organized.

is like going to a restaurant, is nice to have new menue with a lot of oprions but  if you dont have money you just take a main course and some sides.. if you are rich you can take starter, ,main second ,sides, dessert and coffee and tips for the waitress

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

43 minutes ago, Conte D. Catellani said:

i noticed  some post in the forum about that system and i was really sad to dont try it..anyway now a solution like this one  will just reward big nation with big clans well organized.

I am sure you would have loved it, as I recognized similar taste in suggestions during our time on the forum.

But you are wrong the complex old ship crafting system was for big clans only. Best example is my humble self. I did it all alone... you could also buy intermediate premanufactured parts in port shops if you had them not in your own warehouse. I admit the peace server is better for this elaborate system we had, on war server too much can happen which interrupts your  transportation network. A single barrel missing would delay a whole ship getting finished.

[Conte D. Catellani]

1 hour ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

I am sure you would have loved it, as I recognized similar taste in suggestions during our time on the forum.

But you are wrong the complex old ship crafting system was for big clans only. Best example is my humble self. I did it all alone... you could also buy intermediate premanufactured parts in port shops if you had them not in your own warehouse. I admit the peace server is better for this elaborate system we had, on war server too much can happen which interrupts your  transportation network. A single barrel missing would delay a whole ship getting finished.

I was imagining a design as the devs know how to do, with the style of the time. for example an arsenal with a dry dock, cranes, stacks of timber and, gradually as the various pieces are made up, you can see the ship taking shape .. it does not need to be 3d enough in perspective but with the style of the designs of the time. for each ship the different shapes of the eyelashes of the trees .. maybe just a perspective rendering of the various components of the 3d models that are available with some sepia and artistic filters

in the background, a drawing table with inkwell squared compasses and goose feathers

Edited June 2, 2020 by Conte D. Catellani

[Sir Texas Sir]

4 hours ago, SeaBrig said:

i think the wrong ships are locked behind permits, say the Cherubim frigate was the only 5th rate that didnt need a permit, we would see alot more frigate gameplay atleast from other ships such as essex, belle poule, pirate frigate etc. But when you have the trincomalee, WITH NO DOUBT the third best 5th rate (behind endymion and diana) available for no permit you would be stupid to craft an inferior ship for such a small difference.

Of course it would be hard to balance it out now since we have a dlc 4th rate, 3rd rate and 1st rate, but it would help alot imo to bring some varieties

My crafter is only like 360 crew and I thought about  making some base wood ships (I got tons of WO) to put in his fleet and go grind to level him up and open some slots.  The problem with that is unless I'm fighitng higher tier ships the Doubloons, Reals and drops aren't worth it, they barely pay for the repairs.  So you have to fight above your weight class and with chance of some one jumping into your fight and taking you out cause your damage is a bit risky.  If they are going to remove the doubloons from ship crafting and bump up the REALS needed they need to bump up loot in fights.

 

I'm actualy waiting for this DLC to work on the Trinc so I can use those ships.   

7 hours ago, Creme Anglaise said:

The thing ppl complained about with the old crafting system was you couldn't type 500 in a box and make 500 of an item you had to click soooo many times, otherwise it was popular and for the love of god let ppl get crafting xp for all crafting. Give a bonus if crafting ships if you absolutely must.

Remmeber when your crafted ships actually earned craftins XP so they wouldn't have to go out and grind to level up?  Something like that would be nice and we should be gettting crafting xp for other thins instead of just ships.  Maybe not on the level they had the repairs for a while where you could level up very fast by making repairs, but at least something.  That is why I also mention doing travel xp shoulid go towards ships too so to help you level up your trade ship slots.

[Macjimm]

3 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

I am sure you would have loved it, as I recognized similar taste in suggestions during our time on the forum.

But you are wrong the complex old ship crafting system was for big clans only. Best example is my humble self. I did it all alone... you could also buy intermediate premanufactured parts in port shops if you had them not in your own warehouse. I admit the peace server is better for this elaborate system we had, on war server too much can happen which interrupts your  transportation network. A single barrel missing would delay a whole ship getting finished.

I agree that the old crafting system was well suited to solo players, but disagree that the peace server was better.  I liked the risk of transportation in a world where loss was possible.  Demand was higher also.

I was not in a clan when I had a small crafting businesses on the PvP2 server.  I played occasionally on the PvE server, but made most of my money selling Barrels.  Just Barrels, as a standalone enterprise that I could easily do by myself.  I harvested resources, transported them to my workshop, crafted the Barrels and then transported my Barrels to markets.  It was more exciting on the PvP server.   Fast ships with light loads would usually be successful reaching port, without falling victim to the gankers.  I could usually outrun them.

 I also sold my labor hours daily to a few friendly shipwrights who would give me the raw logs, I would cut them into planks and the same shipwright would buy the planks from me.  The shipwrights paid well because they lacked the labour hours.   It was fun and interesting, but best of all it encouraged players to interact and make some friendships.  I liked to think I was using my crew to earn their keep, rather than letting them loaf and sit idle in the tavern.   It was a fascinating time.  Great ideas for  imagination.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Macjimm

[Sea Archer]

7 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

I am sure you would have loved it, as I recognized similar taste in suggestions during our time on the forum.

But you are wrong the complex old ship crafting system was for big clans only. Best example is my humble self. I did it all alone... you could also buy intermediate premanufactured parts in port shops if you had them not in your own warehouse. I admit the peace server is better for this elaborate system we had, on war server too much can happen which interrupts your  transportation network. A single barrel missing would delay a whole ship getting finished.

Yes, this system was great. I used to craft nearly everything myself, but many new players could make a pretty penny by selling their LH. Todays system is quite boring.

Though it can be discussed if carriages should be most LH-consuming items...

[BoomBox]

15 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

I mean the system with intermediate parts, which created sub-industries with the players and production chains.

Like players who specialized in making light/heavy carriages, knees or whatever and delivered them to the shipcrafters who put all together.

And all of them gained experience.

I think it was in autumn 2018 when that was exchanged for current system.

butt wasn't that the one where you blueprints were rng ? i loved that system but i know a lot of ppl hated it.

 

Plus there werde a lot of ppl on the forums yelling that crafting was too much clicking and complex

Edited June 3, 2020 by BoomBox

[Slim McSauce]

Looking back, old crafting was really good. Though it was mature but unrefined system with how much clicking was involved (old UI problems), the attention to detail was second to none. hate to say it but crafting should have stayed how it was.

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Slim McSauce

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

1 hour ago, BoomBox said:

butt wasn't that the one where you blueprints were rng ? i loved that system but i know a lot of ppl hated it.

 

Plus there werde a lot of ppl on the forums yelling that crafting was too much clicking and complex

Yeah, for them it was a "clickfest" and devs streamlined the process because of such complaints.

This morning I wonder if it would be worth a "future feature proposal" in DLC section: recreate the old ship part crafting system for DLC buyers, which in return for their extra effort get a way to improve their ship results. Everybody else aka "clickfest complainers" can stay with existing streamlined process and get their fast results, but miss a chance of getting a reward for intricate crafting...

But as I noted somewhere else, the complicated ideas don't get attention there, majority goes for easy advantages, and "clickfest complainers" will vote it down anyway, so possibly not worth the effort starting it.

[Slim McSauce]

Crafting was the entire premise of a functioning economy but then gamelabs took a big stinking shart on it. Too bad because if economy got better from that point we may have normal cosmetic transactions like csgo and the devs would be wealthed up staying away from anything remotely p2w.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Slim McSauce

[Slim McSauce]

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Edited June 3, 2020 by Slim McSauce
deleted

[HachiRoku]

18 hours ago, rediii said:

Just scrap the whole crafting and OW and focus on battles everyone likes that we saw that in naval action legends!

Oh wait ...

Oh wait what? You mean that no one played it? Legends was not even given a chance. The matchmaking was basically broken so no wonder it failed. A legends style free to play game would be a nice idea. Sell players half the ships and give them the biggest of every class for free. Legends was a closed alpha game. It had potential but was practically none functional. It would need to be a separate ip in the steam store and people would play it. I'm sure of it. 

[Sir Max Magic]

17 hours ago, van stiermarken said:

no, the old one in the early days. where you needed carriages and tar and different type of ship planks for instance and such things. it was more or less a 2 day job where one or more people where crafting the parts and one then could build the ship (because of not so much labor hours available).

Many thanks for grabbing this old screenshot  

I LOVED it !

When i came to NA and dived into crafting, such a system was all i was expecting from an Open World Sandbox MMO

Sounded near perfect to me and i never understood why it was replaced for a watered down, randomized system...  

 

[Sir Max Magic]

17 hours ago, rediii said:

Small adjustments? Crazy man

@rediii, can u pls stop your sarcasm now ?

We all know, you are getting over of NA, which most people are sad about...but deriding every topic with your (often well placed) sarcasm doesnt help to make NA better

 

...and yes, some of us have still hope  

 

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

Just now, Sir Max Magic said:

Many thanks for grabbing this old screenshot  

I LOVED it !

When i came to NA and dived into crafting, such a system was all i was expecting from an Open World Sandbox MMO

Sounded near perfect to me and i never understood why it was replaced for a watered down, randomized system...  

 

Same here Max! That crafting-system was so immersive and made me feel a real shipwright!