Endurance and Final exams - How to pass them (in new damage model)

[Liq]

21 minutes ago, admin said:

Bots do not run the mast protection mods that a very important in pvp  
But demasting is harder now than before (i think). It is easier to demast by raking.

It takes 5 hits to take out a whole mast. With some practise you can dismast 2 masts of a ship with one broadside, as shown in video. 

If you MUST run mast mods to be competetive in PVP - something isn't right IMHO. 

Mast HP requires buffing and mast mods should only buff HP and not thickness, so it doesnt become impossible to dismast but rather takes longer.

[admin]

Just now, Liq said:

It takes 5 hits to take out a whole mast. With some practise you can dismast 2 masts of a ship with one broadside, as shown in video. 

 

i cant do that. i dont know about removing skill oriented mechanics, as such aiming as yours is definitely skill
and if it is soo easy why not everyone is doing it.

[admin]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

Because it is boring meta that doesn't fit the historical videos everyone has seen/ books read. continue

you mean unhistorical like this?

[admin]

6 minutes ago, rediii said:

Pretty sure that happened by broadsides and not by mastsniping with 80% hits

Also the mainreason you can't implement this is the whole mechanic NA is based around, sinking ships. If NA would be morale/crew/boardingbased I would be fine with it but if ships sink after ~6 broadsides then weak masts cant be in the game 

Edit: Ofcourse they can be in the game but it is rather boring for players that know the trick/are on the receiving end  

 

Any reason why we dont decrease accuracy by a lot? (horizontal x3, vertical x2 or something like that) Cannons were not that accurate I guess

if @Liq agrees to lose this skill then we could consider. This is annoying to get mast sniped like this. But we read anecdotes on mast sniping in literature. On several ships of the royal navy there was a 1 gold guinea reward to a gun crew who could fall an enemy mast with a single shot. 

[van der Clam]

9 minutes ago, rediii said:

In my oppinion a highly skillbased mmo is good up to a certain point. If the game gets too skillbased you actually lose more players than you gain.

In the old NA days most nations had 25 people fleets and were roughly the same strength so at most PBs you didn't know the outcome. It was more fun than the current days were you know the good fleets that wreck everyone

@Anolytic @sveno @BABAY @Christendom @King of Crowns @Rabman @Reverse correct me if i'm wrong

@rediii Please tell me you are not suggesting we waste all this dev progress and return to the old mechanics? To me, I feel the only thing needed with this new model is to HP boost the lower sections of the masts so they don't come down so easily. I find it odd to chain someone to 40% and then fire a broadside at the middle or top sections and somehow see the entire mast drop. It also feel weird to have the middle structure bar around 25% and then the entire mast drop. I don't really know how to fix the oddity, so my only suggestion is a HP buff. What suggestion would you have?

[Slim McSauce]

25 minutes ago, admin said:

if @Liq agrees to lose this skill then we could consider. This is annoying to get mast sniped like this. But we read anecdotes on mast sniping in literature. On several ships of the royal navy there was a 1 gold guinea reward to a gun crew who could fall an enemy mast with a single shot. 

Sure, the difference is that those ships don't have gyro stability and near perfect accuracy at 100m. The demasting we have now would work, if it's gunnery counterpart was authentic, since it's not we pay with unauthentic demasting. You can buff/nerf masts more, but it will never feel right, you won't be able to convince your senses that demasting actually works like that, because it just doesn't IRL.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[jodgi]

13 minutes ago, rediii said:

In arenagames you have matchmakers that make people roughly play against the same skill players.

Not in WoT, WoWs or WT modes that are used the most. WoT devs even say that pros dislike being matched up with equal skill players, so they only do that for special game-modes. "If you have skill, you have the right to pwn" is what SerB said over and over. 

About historical demasting: I've seen people here say that the French purposely targeted rigging (our equivalent is sniping masts).

Like others I want there to be balance, kiri, elite french and stacking mast mods take demasting out and in my view skill based PvP suffers.

[Aquillas]

1 hour ago, admin said:

It WAS a rule in the royal navy. Midshipmen who could not pass the lieutenant exam remained midshipmen and were never assigned to commandeering duties.

I would agree to test that rule of the game (Important test to be done, to see if this wouldn't be so discouraging for real new players that it send them out of the game).

But in this condition, resetting your account completely should reset the obligation to repass the exam. Not sure this would be acceptable for most of veteran players...

[jodgi]

6 minutes ago, rediii said:

I don't understand why we can't have lower accuracy so you have to use broadsides to demast or take longer to mastsnipe

We had good balance before OW mods bonanza:

 

[Aquillas]

11 minutes ago, rediii said:

Upgrades you have to have to be competitive in pvp are bad for the game in my oppinion. It only supports the idea of "only pvp with the best equipment possible else you lose".

I don't understand why we can't have lower accuracy so you have to use broadsides to demast or take longer to mastsnipe

In some very successful games, like IL-2 Sturmovik, there was no upgrading possibility. The on line community was strong and based on team work more than individual skill.

[Aster]

18 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Where they die right away....easy meat

They will but that is some what the point. To teach them that the world is not safe and people want to kill them. I like the way EVE does it where there are mission lines that teach you aspects of the game, they generously reward you with basic ships, and gear. So when your a noob then do something dumb and die it isn't really a crushing blow. More like a small prick in the right direction. Also 5th rates should be relatively cheap and plentiful they are the best ships to learn with.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Aster

[Sento de Benimaclet]

17 hours ago, Aerospace said:

At least excluding final exam, any player should finish tutorial, only way to become M&C rank. This should be the rule at War Server.

This is a game, sometimes it seems that you forget.

1 hour ago, admin said:

It WAS a rule in the royal navy. Midshipmen who could not pass the lieutenant exam remained midshipmen and were never assigned to commandeering duties.

But they only did it once. No British command or other nationality was sent back to the naval school to assemble again as a midshipman.

1 hour ago, admin said:

you mean unhistorical like this?

 

 

These are idealizations of the painter of naval battles. Apart from being war propaganda. It is true that sometimes masts fell, but it was not normal, but a matter of probabilities. What mattered was sinking or incapacitating the enemy crew with shrapnel to board the ship.

[jodgi]

6 minutes ago, rediii said:

IL-2 is no MMO tho. I think MMO's need upgrades because it create goals players can achieve

Aces High is an MMO that has been running from 1999 and is still running. It has completely unmoddable vehicles and OP vehicles are behind something like combat medals walls.

I object to the inclusive MMO term being used to exclusively mean eco-MMO, sandbox-MMO, grind-MMO or MMO-RPG.

I get that some people need those frikkin' PvE carrots to feel that their life has meaning but it is possible to give people something to work towards that does not exclude us from maintaining balance in the combat department. The combat is the most important quality this game has on offer, whatever the weak-minded carrot-munchers may think. 

[Angus MacDuff]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

About historical demasting: I've seen people here say that the French purposely targeted rigging (our equivalent is sniping masts).

Not exactly.  The French did like to target rigging, but it was broadsides of chain and bar shot, not ball.  The idea was to slash the opponent's rigging (ropes) and sails in order to slow him down.  This targeting was widespread over the entire area of the rigging and sail plan.  Sometimes (lucky hit) it would take out the smaller, upper masts and spars (Top-Gallant and Royals), but it would never bring down a lower mast.  Mast sniping did not exist.  No canon was accurate enough to purposely hit a mast from a moving ship where the target is another moving ship.  Masts came down from a combination of losing a high percentage of their standing rigging and/or volume of fire and lucky shots.  The raking damage that we are experiencing now from broadsides is a far more realistic model for how full masts were taken down.

[van Veen]

From what I know, masts mainly came down because of damaged rigging, i.e. shrouds, spreaders, fore and aft stay. Having a lot of canvas up and losing one out 4 windward shrouds in a good breeze lets the mast fall immediately. 

However, the game has no hitboxes for the rigging and it'd be a lot of work to implement it into all ship models. Easier approach: perhaps the damage done to masts can be increased by the same percentage as the sails are damaged? Example: Sails damaged to 90% means mast hits inflict 10% more damage, sails damaged to 74% means 26% more mast damage etc. Assumption is that shooting sails also damages part of the rigging, therefore increasing chances of losing a mast.  

[Hethwill]

1 hour ago, rediii said:

IL-2 is no MMO tho

Go play The Air War (TAW) server and then we talk about that. Most hardcore feature is "dead is dead" brother. Very very few become aces before they go down in flames.

Characters are pesistent... until they die. And then, all awards, all medals, all streak, are gone.

Seems the MMO definition is highly diluted these days.

[HachiRoku]

Just now, van Veen said:

From what I know, masts mainly came down because of damaged rigging, i.e. shrouds, spreaders, fore and aft stay. Having a lot of canvas up and losing one out 4 windward shrouds in a good breeze lets the mast fall immediately. 

However, the game has no hitboxes for the rigging and it'd be a lot of work to implement it into all ship models. Easier approach: perhaps the damage done to masts can be increased by the same percentage as the sails are damaged? Example: Sails damaged to 90% means mast hits inflict 10% more damage, sails damaged to 74% means 26% more mast damage etc. Assumption is that shooting sails also damages part of the rigging, therefore increasing chances of losing a mast.  

Mr Doran has a nice thread about masts. His penitration values look good an the rest can be balanced with hp. If mast sniping is to easy buff hp until it feels good. Mast sniping is OK but I dislike it because ships with no mast mods can be sniped in 30 seconds and ships with mods cannot be sniped. Dorans thickness combined with good hp values could work. The hp part would take a hot fix or 2 to get ideal values. Mods should only give hp buffs. Ships should always be dismastable. It's already super easy to repair at perfect time. 

[HachiRoku]

Sol masts are a bit to strong hp wise however 

[Tom Farseer]

7 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Seems the MMO definition is highly diluted these days.

MMO - Massively Multiplay Online.
Hardocre of not has nothing to do with that...

EDIT: Sorry for off-topic. But someone was wrong on the internet 😁

Edited March 13, 2019 by Tom Farseer

[Hethwill]

6 minutes ago, rediii said:

How many players has it?

Concurrent ? As many as the server handles. Across campaigns ? More than you can count.

Enough of it  ; we not discussing what YOU think a mmo is, nor what I think, nor what jodgi thinks, nor what all others think.

Gear is NOT what makes a MMO. For me that's it.

...

massive is not a boss instance with 12 guys, nor a instanced area with 64.

massive is, for example 250 in the same instance, or even more  

[Hethwill]

Stop acting like you know it all. 

Naval Action is awesome. Glad we both like it.

[jodgi]

26 minutes ago, rediii said:

upgrades/gear dont make a MMO but it adds something to a MMO

And it can take away... I suppose that is why we fight on this point. What are the most important things for what and for whom? How do we prioritize?

<humming Queens of the Stone Age> "Mods they giveth and they taketh awaaaaahey, aaaoaaa, Mods they..."

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, jodgi said:

And it can take away... I suppose that is why we fight on this point. What are the most important things for what and for whom? How do we prioritize?

<humming Queens of the Stone Age> "Mods they giveth and they taketh awaaaaahey, aaaoaaa, Mods they..."

Mods are a good thing. Hard to believe I said that right. Mods make every ship a different ship. It gives players hundreds of ways to build a ship. Meta mods are bad. I am with rediii on this one. He is a bitch but I agree with him

[Rabman]

3 hours ago, rediii said:

In my oppinion a highly skillbased mmo is good up to a certain point. If the game gets too skillbased you actually lose more players than you gain.

In the old NA days most nations had 25 people fleets and were roughly the same strength so at most PBs you didn't know the outcome. It was more fun than the current days were you know the good fleets that wreck everyone

@Anolytic @sveno @BABAY @Christendom @King of Crowns @Rabman @Reverse correct me if i'm wrong

I think its a fair point, unfortunately our current population has put us into this situation, imo. You either had 25 men ready to go, or you didn't go to the PB. I know with certainty our small modern fleets are definitely better than the old 25 man crews (from a skill perspective), where we needed every body we could get, and skill levels were all over the place. We had guys who didn't know how to manual sail or guys who didn't know how to board, etc. (they were definitely fun though) and yet we would win battles frequently with this mismatch of skill.

 

I'm honestly of the mind to essentially make frigates/4th rates free or have 5 durability again so it removes the sting of loss and more fighting is had, we're only going to get more people if access is easier. This is coming from someone who loved the austerity patch.

 

[jodgi]

38 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Mods are a good thing...Meta mods are bad.

 

Sure thing!

How do we keep mods as a good thing and stop meta mods?

Speed failfit solo is fantastic group tackler (META)

Invincible masts (META)

Some qualities become meta real fast while others like pen, turning, heel, hp, thickness and aiming have more wiggle room before META sets in.