Testbed Feedback - Battle UI, Localization, Patrols, Delivery quests

[Vernon Merrill]

2 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

This is the root of the argument and something that I hope Devs will take into account.  I am a fan of realistic broadsides doing crippling damage to much smaller ships, but that in itself should not be the only thing modified.  As you say, there are many aspects to a naval battle and modding only one puts a serious imbalance into the equation.  They have not addressed the manoeuvrability of the smaller ships with this mod.  A snow with carros will be able to sit behind a 1st rate and destroy it with raking broadsides. 

No.  No it won’t.  The HUGE carros on the back are sufficient to sink the snow before the 1st rate suffers any significant damage.  

Any sort of strategy or sailing skill has been lost to pure DPS.  

Its purely math now. 

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

@admin can we please put a pin in releasing the cannon changes for now? I think majority here are just frustrated with the timing. Can we focus on the battle ui and then focus on econ changes since getting reals have become an issue. Then when finalizing RvR changes go and introduce them? Being that these cannon changes are such a significant move it should stay up on the testbed however and continued to be tested.

[admin]

13 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

No.  No it won’t.  The HUGE carros on the back are sufficient to sink the snow before the 1st rate suffers any significant damage.  

Any sort of strategy or sailing skill has been lost to pure DPS.  

No. Strategy and sailing skill is not lost. Its a different story.
If you believe that a 200-300 ton light boat should have a chance versus a first rate you are advocating a MOBA where every class and every ship is equal in one sort or another. But even balanced games like CS do not balance AKs against pistols. You can have fun with pistols as much as you want, but for a pro match you will take AK and M4. 

Snow should not have any single chance against a commandeered first rate in the game that has realistic in the marketing message. It only will have a chance if a 1st rate is engaged by something else and is not paying attention.

Heavy 5th and 4th rates though now have much bigger chances than before due to heavy calibers

[Vernon Merrill]

A) while I like historical accuracy, at the end of the day this IS a game.  Playability should always win out in an argument between historic and gameplay.  We are not all real naval officers who have demonstrated the needed skill to command ships. 

b) A bullet to the face from 9mm pistol fired from an SAS member will kill you just as fast as ten 7.62 rounds sprayed from an Somali goat farmer.  It was ALWAYS hard for a Snow to take down a line first rate, but it was a mark of your skill.  And many people died trying I’m sure.

Now I fear we’ll just have seas full of Somali goat farmers, but now with ballistic helmets.   

But i’ve Been wrong before and I may be wrong again.   We shall test and find out   

 

[Jan van Santen]

25 minutes ago, admin said:

No. Strategy and sailing skill is not lost. Its a different story.
If you believe that a 200-300 ton light boat should have a chance versus a first rate you are advocating a MOBA where every class and every ship is equal in one sort or another. But even balanced games like CS do not balance AKs against pistols. You can have fun with pistols as much as you want, but for a pro match you will take AK and M4. 

Snow should not have any single chance against a commandeered first rate in the game that has realistic in the marketing message. It only will have a chance if a 1st rate is engaged by something else and is not paying attention.

Heavy 5th and 4th rates though now have much bigger chances than before due to heavy calibers

In reality a snow would not dare to attack an SOL because of factors the game doesnt have: eg a suddenly calming wind or an accidental hit from the stern guns or a sniper from the SOL's masts shooting the helmsman of the snow or a frigate from the sol's fleet etc etc. The risk was just to high bec any of these little accidents could lead to total destruction.

Getting this "no chance" into the game w/o these accidental things seems the problem. Solving it  via vulnerability seems an okay option.

However: on the same lvl of reality argument no trader would have dared to exchange broadsides w a frigate or tried to fight when boarded. They would try to run and once they couldnt get away, they would surrender.

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Jan van Santen

[Norfolk nChance]

Obviously being away far too long, but balancing is still the issue I see.

The distinct difference between Real-Life age of sail and Naval Action is ship to ship dependencies not taken into account at all. Real-Life a first rate even in a first-rate line needed 74-gun support. In Naval-Action focus is always to the individual ship, book and mod in total isolation.

@Grundgemunkey point is valid 1^st Rate ships NEVER sail alone.

Third rates rarely

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Droits_de_l%27Homme_(1794)

Frigates then, normally dispatch carriers or in small wolf packs. Out right solo hunting yes, normal behavior probably not.

First, Second and Third Rates should have a dampener when sailed in isolation. Like wise boosts when sailed in the right combo... This in fact with all rates.

VERY easy for me to say I know, but these problems will not go away. Looking at the problem in a more real life setting rather than the 1v1 encounters. A single lone cutter should never be able to face a first rate at all... in my opinion.

 

A pinch of salt,

 

Norfolk

 

[Tom Farseer]

I originally had one question to all the people who say this change will force everyone to sail 1st rates only.

Why?

Anyone can still take any frigate out to play, you just have to stay the hell away from heavy lineships.

Then I doublechecked the current sailing profiles.

With the current sailing model a Fir/Fir Victory will be faster than a Live/White Indefatigable at any point of sail!
So the thing we need is a speed reduction for the large classes.

Because yes, a lone frigate should not be able to go hunt 1st rate lineships for sport. But a Lineship (at least anything above 4th rates) should not be able to catch a frigate, no matter the wood combination. Once that is implemented I'd personally be fine with Ball damage and Ship HP based on mass.

[Malcolm3]

4 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

But a Lineship (at least anything above 4th rates) should not be able to catch a frigate, no matter the wood combination

Actually there were examples when 74s were faster than frigates, especially in heavy seas. It depended on crew quality mostly

[Thonys]

  9 hours ago, Thonys said:

exploding ships (the possibility to fuse a ship on your own command)

CECIL SELOUS:

quote; While I mostly agree with the rest of your post, I can't get behind this. It equals consensual mass suicide of up to a few hundred men. Shouldn't be a thing.

 

well, the reason i say this is because the time when having fire chock and the actual time when a ship explodes even when ship saving is off, takes way-way way to long...

so if development is not balancing it.... i would suggest to take matters on our own..... and ask for a detonation fuse.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Thonys

[admin]

1 hour ago, Vernon Merrill said:

 

b) A bullet to the face from 9mm pistol fired from an SAS member will kill you just as fast as ten 7.62 rounds sprayed from an Somali goat farmer.  It was ALWAYS hard for a Snow to take down a line first rate, but it was a mark of your skill.  

 

9mm will not penetrate advanced helmets with face shields and armor (you will have to go for the legs) 

Sinking a first rate in the snow was of course a mark of skill  - we do not argue that.

But this skill was buffed and supported by an inverse DPS model and specially narrowed difference in hp which had zero relation to any historical considerations.
Because damage and hp was tuned for the lobby moba (unlike other parameters like yard power and such, that were tuned later) and its time to bring them to at least partially to historical patterns. This moba balance was hurting us, it was breaking the balance between classes and was lowering complexity due to bow and stern tanking and easy sterncamping. By fixing it  we are increasing complexity further.

This balance is going away. The game will value gameplay - but progression is part of the gameplay and changing ships too. 

Somewhere deep you know snow would not have a chance against a first rate. Every new buyer knows it. First rates are becoming kings of the sea and it is a good thing because everyone expects this. Do not hold on broken old mechanics you liked. They are bad for growth because they are completely ahistorical and if they are a-historical and cannot be supported by any logic (even with long stretch logic)  they will be removed

[Tom Farseer]

25 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

Actually there were examples when 74s were faster than frigates, especially in heavy seas. It depended on crew quality mostly

I know there were 74 going faster that some frigates. But at some point the compromise between playability and realism has to be found. If Bellonas can hunt any frigate with impunity then anyone not able to crew a 3rd rate will have a hard time getting there.

[DeRuyter]

35 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

Actually there were examples when 74s were faster than frigates, especially in heavy seas. It depended on crew quality mostly

It depended on the wind conditions. Stronger winds and as you note seas that we don't have in NA. Of course there is a situation where the heavy seas work against the 74 forcing her to close the lower gun ports losing the heaviest guns from the broadside. Again not replicated in NA. Without that frigates should be faster and more maneuverable than SOL. 

[jnovotny6]

Devs, remember no matter what changes you make there is always going to be a vocal minority that will hate anything you do. There is no need for this sky is falling attitude, over all these changes are good and it will all be tweeked as time goes on. It always has.

[admin]

2 minutes ago, jnovotny6 said:

Devs, remember no matter what changes you make there is always going to be a vocal minority that will hate anything you do. There is no need for this sky is falling attitude, over all these changes are good and it will all be tweeked as time goes on. It always has.

We are just trying to explain the rationale. But remember - we explain and reply because everyone reads this (not only who post in this topic). we know people will love this new model where lineships are POWERFUL rulers of the sea, where bow and stern tanking is removed, where raking is devastating and demasts, blocking escape of light targets.

Pure frigate enthusiasts will adapt and enjoy new challenges (will be harder and more exciting) too. Those who dont understand yet will see it in practice.

[jnovotny6]

Pure frigate enthusiasts need St Cecilia asap pleeeaaase

[Cabral]

On 2/11/2019 at 2:48 PM, Intrepido said:

SoL never sail alone.

Check your facts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_of_the_Glorioso

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_8_April_1740

 

Catalan vs Mary

 

Stanhope captured by Blas de Lezo

 Both solo missions ended bad for them, so Grundge point still stands.

[Archaos]

31 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Of course, but you weren't doing it alone outside of a reinforcement zone because a group of hunters in 4th rates might come along and sink you. Now you don't even have to fear that. 🙄

 

I did most of my grinding of SOL slots from a port outside the reinforcement zone and never once got caught by hunters and most battles were against multiple NPC 4th and 5th rates or a few NPC SOL's and at no time did I ever really feel threatened by them because of the way NPC play. I think with the new damage model you would actually have to be a bit careful facing too many 4th and 5th rates even in a tanked out 1st rate because they like to snipe through the stern and if this happens to take out a mast you could be in serious trouble.

I tried it on the test server and although you take out individual ships very quickly with broadsides the sheer number of them means you are always taking damage through the stern which means you are losing structure and have a chance of losing a mast. 

Also now taking on 3 or 4 similar class NPC SOL's will not be viable as you will take too much damage.

[huliotkd]

2 hours ago, admin said:

So while i understand what you are trying to say, for me it reads: please keep frigates very easy. We have to think for all players so we have to bring the balance to the universe for all ships, not only ships YOU like to sail.

AMEN

 

anyway, i'm reading a lot of whinig from vets...i have to suppose they still must learn how to play and sail a ship.    1st rate are dangerouse ONLY IF YOU DO MISTAKES AND PUT YOURSELF SIDE TO SIDE WITH IT!!!!!

now the skill, real sailing skill, is the preparation of the match...you have to know the role of your ship, know where and when move to a precise direction, when angling and most of all WHEN IT'S TIME TO LEAVE THE BATTLE!!!

damage patch improves your awareness of the battle...from the post i'm reading i understand a lot of player have to start improving it

 

 

[Cabral]

4 minutes ago, huliotkd said:

know where and when move to a precise direction, when angling

 We don't know yet if in the next patch your angling will still work, with new penetration values, angling won't serve you much.

[Hethwill]

6 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

We know those stories because they had an outcome. We dont know how many SoLs were alone around the seas and nothing happened to them.

Grunde only said SoLs never sailed alone.

Yes we do. There's accessible documentation for all of them from the various officers on board.

Thank the spanish for extremely detailed logs by the way. They are really priceless. Many sea rover names and stories and feats wouldn't be known if it wasn't for the extremely detailed logging of events that the spanish main navy officers kept.

[Vernon Merrill]

Lol at certain people named <redacted>  and <redacted> trying to tell people how to sail.   It will be hilarious when these “real ship” captains start losing their prized possessions and can’t afford new ones.  

[huliotkd]

3 minutes ago, Cabral said:

 We don't know yet if in the next patch your angling will still work, with new penetration values, angling won't serve you much.

wrong...angling now must match with moving. an immobile ship is a dead ship so you must always keep moving angling when enemy fire and continuing moving while enemy is firing at you once you started angling.

btw , angling still works on testbed but the angle is smaller and you have always move your ship when receiving balls on hull

[z4ys]

@admin will sailing profiles and lineare yard movement be addressed too? Will convince of sailing into the wind changed to fit more historical/rl values especially in battle instance? Will gun crew size be set to historical values too?

[van der Clam]

1 hour ago, Tom Farseer said:

With the current sailing model a Fir/Fir Victory will be faster than a Live/White Indefatigable at any point of sail!
So the thing we need is a speed reduction for the large classes.

Because yes, a lone frigate should not be able to go hunt 1st rate lineships for sport. But a Lineship (at least anything above 4th rates) should not be able to catch a frigate, no matter the wood combination. Once that is implemented I'd personally be fine with Ball damage and Ship HP based on mass.

This I agree. I propose no amount of speed upgrades should make a higher rate ship faster than 2 rates below it. i.e.

Speed and wood combos can make 1st rates as fast as 2nd rates, but not as fast as 3rd rates and below. Close but not.
Same for all other rates, 4th rate can be as fast as 5th rate, but not 6th rate.

I also feel this is how hull durability should work but inversed:

Wood and upgrades should be able to make a 4th rate stand up to a 3rd rate, but not a 2nd rate.
Same for all other rates.

Of course there would be a couple ships that would bleed through...Notably the Victory could be as fast as a couple 3rd rates, but not faster. The Bellona could be as fast as some 5th rates like the Indefatigable, but not all. And roughly the same would happen with ship durability against higher rates....some might bleed through like maybe the Constitution could be almost as durable as a 2nd rate...or the Indefatigable almost as durable as a 3rd rate...but never better than, no matter the upgrades and builds.

As it is on the live server...ships mods are making lesser ships way too strong. On the testbed it is making them way too weak. 

But this response was mostly about speed and durability with included mods and trying to balance them out better between rates.

EDIT: Perhaps include Agility with Speed...as a Vic with upgrades should never be more agile than a majority of the 4th and 3rd rates.

Edited February 12, 2019 by van der Decken

[z4ys]

In my opinion Max speed can stay for sols if they would actually start to suffer at wind angles below 90° just like normal rattle does. The only square rigger that feels kind of real.