Patch 26. Spanish Frigate Diana, BR rebalance - Diana is a timed reward.

[admin]

8 minutes ago, rediii said:

He means that you board and disengage only to hold someone in place so other people can shoot double broadsides without him being able to shoot back.

 

it is somewhat realistic. Both victory and redoutable and all other ships who were on boarding during Trafalgar did not lay any substantial fire at other passing targets

[Licinio Chiavari]

25 minutes ago, admin said:

we are buffing barricades to be an amazing defensive upgrade. On the UI patch or right after we plan to give crew damage to BOTH ships participating in boarding if someone is raked during boarding.

that's sounds a bit strange, granted Barricade (+20% defense and FP) is already very strong in defense (already making an attacker unable to break - killing more than losing - throught a smaller defender in brace - it could be fine if in defense...)

[William Death]

I'll wait to comment on the boarding changes till we test them, but they do seem bad to me. Seems like it'll promote light, fast ships, loaded up with marines. Pull alongside a slower, tougher ship and board it. No need to chain, no need to grape, no need to worry about your hull damage (because even fir/fir can stand up to one-three broadsides from a similar classed ship made of teak/wo). No skill, easy win.

Glad I've been building fir/fir again lately  But I'll hold final judgement till its tested. Cautiously optimistic that it'll work out, only one way to know for sure.

 

Regarding the speeds of Constitution and several other ships.

The hull speed formula with 1.34 as a constant is pretty universal across all displacement hulls. Perhaps there is some "other constant" to use with older vessels, but I've never researched it. Wikipedia says the constant is usually between 1.34-1.51.... I've always gotten by with 1.34. It is usually only used as a rough estimate, after all.

So take hull speed with a grain of salt, as it is only a theoretical "speed cap." Think of it as the point of diminishing returns (up till the hull speed, adding more power will increase speed by a decent amount; past hull speed, you have to add drastically more power to achieve a little more speed, until you force the ship over her own bow wave and onto a plane [its possible but the ship may not withstand the stresses]).  Also, I can't imagine too many square-rigged sailing warships ever approached their hull speed, for the simple reason that adding more sails (more horsepower) is only effective till you begin snapping yards, springing masts, or pulling out your chainplates/sever rigging damage. Not to mention that adding more sail area can push the bow down, or make the ship heel over and change the waterline profile, etc. There are so many variables at play, that hull speed is really the least of concerns, I'd say.

And even log reports can be misleading. Wind conditions change, how were the holds stored differently, how hard was the ship driven, how clean was the bottom, what was the tide doing (this is a big one, I've boated in an area where tides are fairly moderate, and they can affect ship speed [even in the ocean] by 0.1 - 2.0 knots, occasionally more depending on moon phase; and lets not forget about the underwater currents that wind their way across the oceans), etc.

 

Back to the game:

For some reason, it is decided that wood type should have a massive effect (where IRL the differences would be smaller) on ship speed, and because of this, we have to remember that Naval Action is a game, and we must have some balance between ships. If you give Constitution LO/WO historical values (say LO/WO makes 12.5kn when copper plated and proper speed books are used), then a fir/fir would be pushing what? 15kn+? Thats not a good balance. At the same time, if you continue with this trend and give Bellona (as a representation of 74s) historical stats, then a WO/WO Bellona will need to do what, 13kn? I think I've heard some 3rd rates were even faster than that, in the right wind conditions (isn't the light Spanish 3rd rate we're getting supposed to have sailed at over 14kn?). And thats not good balance. So lets not go too far down the rabbit hole when it comes to historical realism.

I'm in agreement now (I wasn't at first, I'll admit [I thought the base speed of Constitution was fine]) with those who suggest we buff her speed a small amount, to maybe 12.0-12.2 base. Taking care not to make her performance eclipse any of the lighter frigates that should remain faster, but less powerful and weaker hulls.

There was a time, long ago, that a Live Oak/Pirate Refit Bonus/Speed Constitution with Copper Plating, blue staysails, and blue studdingsails  could reach 13.2 knots. I enjoyed that ship, but there were Bermuda versions doing well over 14kn, and that was broken.  You cannot balance the ship's stats for one build, without taking into account what will happen at the opposite extreme. 

So we either ditch the notion of drastic speed differences between wood types and go for a mod-dependent system with little variation in ship speed among wood types (not a good idea, with the state of mods, IMO), or we stick with what we have and invent speeds to make the ships balance. After all, what is speed, but a number? Ignoring any semblance of realism for a moment, does it matter if a fifth rate does 20 knots, as long as a first rate is proportionally slower (maybe 16kn)? What I'm getting at here is this: as long as speeds are balanced between ships, it doesn't matter what the number on the knotmeter says (within reason).

[Teutonic]

I eagerly wait to test these changes.

[Licinio Chiavari]

20 minutes ago, William Death said:

...

I'd only dare "correcting" the perfect above noted post on the "promote light, fast ships, loaded up with marines".
IMO will promote having, more or less, all ships ablet to defend from, or fight back ALSO during a boarding.

Aside making ships more real (almost any ship had marines) having to devote a couple books to boarding defense (atm solved with a simple Perk) could (conditional: we obviously need to see it implemented) reduce the mod stacking... because overstacking some mods/books will make the shiny ship really weak on boarding side and easy a prey for boarders (yes: unskilled ones too).

PS: Not to mention (more important IMO) a great stop to small nimble ships even daring to camp and kill big SoLs.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari

[Archaos]

I have my doubts regarding how the new boarding mechanic and changes to DD is going to work out. I see no mention of the distance off before boarding can be initiated. If it is any greater than actually touching I think there will be total confusion. If this applies to AI then it will be ridiculous, remember when in fleet battles the AI would ram and board people head on during the first pass, well we will see the same again but this time while you are close by matching speeds and firing broadsides.

 

[Teutonic]

I think this boarding change will change how i setup my ships with books and mods.

Which is honestly a good thing - we now must be prepared to get into a boarding whether we want to or not. I now fancy marine 5, or maybe 1-2 slots for boarding instead of just speed/cannon books (because lets face it, we used DD to be able to practically ignore boarding).

I do agree though that fir/fir marine loaded ships may cause trouble - but again this needs to be tested.

I honestly think this will enhance the game more. I do however feel that we will have to continue tweaking the numbers until we find the right balance. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Teutonic

[Teutonic]

I am sorry for the post spam --

Does anyone know the current distance in order to initiate a boarding?

I hope that the distance stays relatively short - maybe within 20-30 meters?

We should be able to understand that if an enemy comes within a certain distance that we can assume boarding may happen.

[Slim McSauce]

13 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

I think thus boarding change will change how i setup my ships with books and mods.

Which is honestly a good thing - we now must be prepared to get into a boarding whether we want to or not. I now fancy marine 5, or maybe 1-2 slots for boarding instead of just speed/cannon books (because lets face it, we used DD to be able to practically ignore boarding).

I do agree though that fir/fir marine loaded ships may cause trouble - but again this needs to be tested.

I honestly think this will enhance the game more. I do however feel that we will have to continue tweaking the numbers until we find the right balance. 

which is fine, what I don't like is how locked in boarding is, once you're in you're stopped completely, unable to do anything but do 15 second rock paper scissors while enemy ships surround you. This may be realistic but what isn't realistic is that there's no way to beat back grappling attempts besides sailing away, you get insta snagged and that's pretty much the battle in lots of cases. It was already bad because ramming and hugging, now it will be worse.

[Guest]

Just now, Slim McSauce said:

which is fine, what I don't like is how locked in boarding is, once you're in you're stopped completely, unable to do anything but do 15 second rock paper scissors while enemy ships surround you. This may be realistic but what isn't realistic is that there's no way to beat back grappling attempts besides sailing away, you get insta snagged and that's pretty much the battle in lots of cases. It was already bad because ramming and hugging, now it will be worse.

I don't think boarding should stop you anymore, it should trap your ships together, nerf your speed about 25% each and both ships should sail side by side in rigging shock while performing boarding. This would solve everyones main concerns about using boarding to hold people in place.

[Slim McSauce]

1 minute ago, Flinch said:

I don't think boarding should stop you anymore, it should trap your ships together, nerf your speed about 25% each and both ships should sail side by side in rigging shock while performing boarding. This would solve everyones main concerns about using boarding to hold people in place.

Agreed! That's a fair compromise for gameplay and realism. Ships rigging tangles, so nerf speed a bit but let us remain in control of our vessels! If you don't have me tied down physics wise and I mean like physically I either don't have the sailforce or maneuverability to wiggle out, then yes I deserve to be locked down. But if I still have 100% sails going 13knts down wind and another ship approaches me at the same speed and grapples, no you shouldn't be immediately locked down for that.
That's all I'm saying, @admin please consider this in our testing!

Edited September 17, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Agreed! That's a fair compromise for gameplay and realism. Ships rigging tangles, so nerf speed a bit but let us remain in control of our vessels! If you don't have me tied down physics wise and I mean like physically I either don't have the sailforce or maneuverability to wiggle out, then yes I deserve to be locked down. But if I still have 100% sails going 13knts down wind and another ship approaches me at the same speed and grapples, no you shouldn't be immediately locked down for that.
That's all I'm saying, @admin please consider this in our testing!

Not exactly what I meant, I still think boarding while in motion would be fine as long as you continued to sail in a straight line so you weren't a total sitting duck for the enemy fleet swallowing you up.

 

Edit: This would also have a strategic choice of risking getting yourself isolated if you board someone then end up sailing away from your fleet in a random direction.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Guest

[Sir Texas Sir]

4 hours ago, rediii said:

What about the idea that you can still sail while in boarding giving you the chance to disengage by normal sailing and not letting you die without the chance to do anything because you were downwind against a upwind fleet

edit: why not enable everything?

Crew will go also into boarding but you also can shoot cannons and sail.

 

That would make boarding pretty intense

You mean if you do a broadside in boarding it actually fires your cannons into the other ship?  That would be kinda interesting as there was times when during boarding they tried to sink the other ship by firing into it at point blank.

 

I'll wait and see how this turns out, but i get a feeling there is going to be way more rage boarding.  It seems most of the fights i been in lately have been nothing but Vets rageboarding the crap out of others.  I still think DD should been tied to board prep, but this just means we have the board mechanics AI uses, they won't pull you unless they have more crew.  

[admin]

3 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

 

I'll wait and see how this turns out, but i get a feeling there is going to be way more rage boarding.  It seems most of the fights i been in lately have been nothing but Vets rageboarding the crap out of others.  I still think DD should been tied to board prep, but this just means we have the board mechanics AI uses, they won't pull you unless they have more crew.  

Barricades will turn into a great defensive upgrade. They will be able to counter most 4/5 boarding setups. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

25 minutes ago, Flinch said:

I don't think boarding should stop you anymore, it should trap your ships together, nerf your speed about 25% each and both ships should sail side by side in rigging shock while performing boarding. This would solve everyones main concerns about using boarding to hold people in place.

This now makes me wonder how many folks started to bitch about the anti board pit move.  I done this a lot in the past with AI and players before the Requin over crew crap happen.  I have pulled ships in fight or let myself get pulled in my Mortar brig in the shallows.  Only they didn't know I was running barricades and axes on the ship.  I'll let the other ships on my team core them out and than I disengage to watch them sink as I take off.  Guess that option is going to be more limited now, or you have to get your speed slow so others can us the move and sink them.

[Sir Texas Sir]

Just now, admin said:

Barricades will turn into a great defensive upgrade. They will be able to counter most 4/5 boarding setups. 

I know I think I'm one of the few who has ever escaped a board fit Requin pull in a Naigara.  300+ crew vs my 170 and I was able to escape with 90 crew left, but I was running barricades (what most folks don't use), axes and 5rings.   I call it my anti board set up as I used it many times to be pulled, but hold the rageboarding while teammates sink them.  Than release them just as they are into the structure and taking on water.   

Like I said we will test this, I actually do a lot of boarding myself in fights even against AI (it some times make the fights shorter if you know what your doing).  Just get that big patch done with and in game please.

 

#WHENSEPTEMBERENDS

[Angus MacDuff]

1 hour ago, admin said:

@Fluffy Fishy @Sella22 @z4ys @maturin @Malachi and many other forum members versed in the history of the age of sail (sorry if i missed everyone else)  will confirm that just getting side by side would be enough to entangle rigging for a couple of hours. Lets see how it works now. After large patch we will also add weight difference to it. Right now DD will act as a weight difference deterrent.

Getting side by side at speed would cause severe damage.  Getting side by side and entangling rigging, would cause catastrophic damage to rigging, spars and masts.  These ships didn't move in a single plane.  Great weight plus speed gives a massive amount of inertia and that energy will do a lot of damage.  If these experts you mention are well versed in the age of sail, they know that you don't come alongside at speed.  I've only been a professional sailor for my entire adult life, but I admit, its all steel.  I still know you cant do that.

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

that's sounds a bit strange, granted Barricade (+20% defense and FP) is already very strong in defense (already making an attacker unable to break - killing more than losing - throught a smaller defender in brace - it could be fine if in defense...)

Remember also that when that patch drops there is going to be a mod stacking changes too so your not going to have guys with 50 board fit mods either.  You will have to pick and choise the ones you combine with other things.

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, admin said:

it is somewhat realistic. Both victory and redoutable and all other ships who were on boarding during Trafalgar did not lay any substantial fire at other passing targets

But they could still fire broad side at each others. I know we have the board actions, but maybe is there a way we could still fire our cannons while in boarding so that it can be also very devastating to pull some one if your a smaller ship you could be sunk by the broad sides or even loose sail/mast/crew depending what was loaded into the cannons.  I think this would make trying to rage board certain ships a very very very risky act.  Specially when we are talking about say a fir/fir rage boarder vs a LO/WO SOL

2 hours ago, rediii said:

@Havelock @Palatinose @Abram Svensson and me actually talked about this too and think on ramming both parties should get a crew shock simulating that rigging stuff aswell as the crew getting thrown around etc.

 

Maybe when you board there is rigging damage if you disengage to both ships.  Though I agree ramming needs more hazards like leaks and damage as I seen to many folks ram (in Requins) and it does nothing to them or the effects or so little they get over it quickly.  Even if the leaks are small and slow, but it makes it a hazard to who ever did the ramming.

1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

@admin

Do you have any idea when the big patch will land?

 

It will get here when it gets here, remember your words over and over to me.....

#WHENSEPTEMBERENDS

With that if it doesn't come in the next two weeks we better get some chest of paints.  Hell I still think we all should get a chest of paints just for the long wait we been having.

#WHYNOPAINTSINGAME?

[DeRuyter]

@Fluffy Fishy @Malachi I posted the link earlier in this thread, or one of the other recent Constitution threads, to log entries from 1813-1814 noting a speed of 14 knts. Most of the time she was logging 11-12 knts though. @Fluffy Fishy you are right about modifications to improve speed, one of which was to get rid of the 42 lb carros, that the United States kept but she was known to be a slower sailor than her sister ships. I would say though that the weight of the wood used for framing can be misleading, you need the sail area to displacement ratio to find out the effect of the heavier construction. Of course we don't have variable wind conditions that was an important factor distinguishing the sailing characteristics the different builds and ships IRL.

Also just FYI she did sail again in 2012 for the anniversary of the battle vs. Guerriere . My understanding on these sails is that the wind speed has to be less than 15 knts so nothing gets damaged.  In 1997 the wind speed was only 5-6 knts which should put the 3.1 knts speed into perspective. The day before in more wind she made 6 knts for a practice run. 

Kinda like  @William Death point about hull speed - it is a theoretical maximum, you rarely get conditions to even get close to it. Most ships are sailing faster than the constant in game wind should allow anyway. 

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, Teutonic said:

(because lets face it, we used DD to be able to practically ignore boarding)

That was my main take-away too. Whatever other problems may arise; This sounds like an overall improvement. I don't mind the "shitty" boarding stuff, I'm fine with lower crew count being a vulnerability, I think I even like it (Hello Sea Trials mechanics!).

19 minutes ago, admin said:

Barricades will turn into a great defensive upgrade. They will be able to counter most 4/5 boarding setups.

Oh, dear! Current DD reborn? Hey, leave at least one vulnerability in. Imma watch this space...

[Licinio Chiavari]

14 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Remember also that when that patch drops there is going to be a mod stacking changes too so your not going to have guys with 50 board fit mods either.  You will have to pick and choise the ones you combine with other things.

A reduced mod stacking (that's great IMO) coupled with over buffed barricades (as states) could end up making impossible a boarding attack.

This could be good or not (didnt see why still) but on the other hand, coupled with easier starting boarding, could end in a kinda weird tactic: boarding even bigger enemies (having barricades) to let mates (so an help to gang up vs 1) sinking the boarded on other side.

Moreover the (apparently) intended nerf to small sterncampers could not work: the sterncamper put the buffed barricades and a second boarding defense mod, and or the big ship has a true lot more crew and boarding fitted... Or the small ship will easily disengage and restart camping.

[z4ys]

1 hour ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Getting side by side at speed would cause severe damage.  Getting side by side and entangling rigging, would cause catastrophic damage to rigging, spars and masts.  These ships didn't move in a single plane.  Great weight plus speed gives a massive amount of inertia and that energy will do a lot of damage.  If these experts you mention are well versed in the age of sail, they know that you don't come alongside at speed.  I've only been a professional sailor for my entire adult life, but I admit, its all steel.  I still know you cant do that.

32-gun British frigate HMS Ambuscade and the French 24-gun corvette Bayonnaise

...

As the frigate sailed on the port side of the corvette on a parallel course, overtaking her, Bayonnaise backed sail and turned hard to port, ramming Ambuscade. The bowsprit of Bayonnaise cut down Ambuscade 's mizzen, wounding part of the crew standing on the poop deck, and entangling the two ships.

...

Edited September 17, 2018 by z4ys

[Sir Malachy Karrde]

7 hours ago, Percival Merewether said:

Actually @Grundgemunkey made a mistake in his post, the description he posted is from the August 2012 cruise. She was in a dry dock  from 2015 to 2017. She has only sailed twice in the past century under her own power; once in 1997 and once in 2012.

She is towed out to sea every year and turned around so that the weathering happens evenly on both sides of the ship. But this does not happen under her own power.

@Sir Malachy Karrde You have NEVER served on the Constitution, drop the conversation now and end whatever it is you're trying to achieve. You will not convince any of us...

EDIT: USS Constitution's state during her alleged 2016 cruise:

 

7 hours ago, Percival Merewether said:

Actually @Grundgemunkey made a mistake in his post, the description he posted is from the August 2012 cruise. She was in a dry dock  from 2015 to 2017. She has only sailed twice in the past century under her own power; once in 1997 and once in 2012.

She is towed out to sea every year and turned around so that the weathering happens evenly on both sides of the ship. But this does not happen under her own power.

@Sir Malachy Karrde You have NEVER served on the Constitution, drop the conversation now and end whatever it is you're trying to achieve. You will not convince any of us...

EDIT: USS Constitution's state during her alleged 2016 cruise:

You sir are mistaken. Additionally, the US navy doesn't always publicize when they take a ship out to sea, even the famous ones. You can believe what you wish, I've nothing to prove to a bunch of forum idiots who haven't served. There are videos of half a dozen of her cruises on YouTube. One of them even has me in it  I'm still in the Navy reserves and hold the rank of Commander to this day. I'll have my 25 years in (8 active duty, 17 reserves) next fall and intend to retire then. 

For the guy who said something about me being disrespectful toward the British navy, I did not mean to come off that way. I was merely pointing out that during the 1800s, the admiralty resisted change and were slow on the uptake when it came to new innovations. I personally have quite a lot of respect for the Royal Navy, both when it was the most powerful navy afloat to modern times. One of my uncles served as a heleicopter pilot for the RN actually. 

[Fluffy Fishy]

29 minutes ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

You sir are mistaken. Additionally, the US navy doesn't always publicize when they take a ship out to sea, even the famous ones. You can believe what you wish, I've nothing to prove to a bunch of forum idiots who haven't served. There are videos of half a dozen of her cruises on YouTube. One of them even has me in it  I'm still in the Navy reserves and hold the rank of Commander to this day. I'll have my 25 years in (8 active duty, 17 reserves) next fall and intend to retire then. 

For the guy who said something about me being disrespectful toward the British navy, I did not mean to come off that way. I was merely pointing out that during the 1800s, the admiralty resisted change and were slow on the uptake when it came to new innovations. I personally have quite a lot of respect for the Royal Navy, both when it was the most powerful navy afloat to modern times. One of my uncles served as a heleicopter pilot for the RN actually. 

I think there would be a fair amount of publicity if she went to sea during the middle of her most recent restoration work as she would have been at the bottom of Boston harbour. They stripped away the planking and caulking to the point she was no longer watertight to conduct major structural work to stop her collapsing in on herself under her own weight. It was a complex and intricate repair job that required her to be in dry dock for a long period of time so as to be done properly, famously making HMS Trincomalee the oldest floating warship in the world for the entirety of the 2 year period the repairs took place over before her recent refloating last year. By all means share these youtube videos though.

Here is an article from the navy times that briefly discusses her refloat announcement
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/04/05/uss-constitution-to-return-to-water-after-latest-restoration/
Here is the museum blog which contains some detailed step by step information of her restoration (you do have to click "+ load more" a few of times though to get the whole 2015-17 period)
https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/blog/

You mean the British admiralty? The same period where they appointed people like Robert Seppings to important positions and adopted some of the most significant changes and adaptions to ship design of the entire age of sail era, The Napoleonic era spurring forward one of the most innovative periods of naval development and pathed the way to the end of the age of sail in its entirety as Britain invested in its wooden walls.

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Fluffy Fishy