Patch 14: Part 2 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

[Farrago]

Spent all day sailing a turn tuned Bellona trying all sorts of techniques to tack. Never was able to do it without going backwards making sort of a modified K turn. I sort of suspect that’s not the type of turn intended but I have zero experience with real world sailing.

[Malachy]

38 minutes ago, Farrago said:

Spent all day sailing a turn tuned Bellona trying all sorts of techniques to tack. Never was able to do it without going backwards making sort of a modified K turn. I sort of suspect that’s not the type of turn intended but I have zero experience with real world sailing.

Same here, most ships end up turning that way. That said, there are maneuvers you can use in pvp using the reverse momentum

[victor]

On 12/9/2017 at 11:12 PM, Malachy said:

Something they did really screwed up the Connie. It turns worse than a 1st rate now, quite a letdown from 14.1. At this point you may as well not have screwed around with them, it handled much more realistically before you fiddled with it. The Connie is and was a frigate and should handle as such. It handles worse than all the lineships. If you plan on leaving it like this you may As well remove it from the game. Its main purpose is to handle better than the heavier armed 4th rates and with your so called fix, it handles much much worse.

like I said, I have had the pleasure of sailing on the Connie (the real one) and she handles like a dream. You might want to seriously rethink these changes because you really got it wrong in this case. @admin

It's clear that devs hate so much the connie. A ship that should be the best all around frigate in game ends up being just the most nerfbatted ship in naval action history.

Edited December 11, 2017 by victor

[DeRuyter]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 7:11 PM, Farrago said:

Spent all day sailing a turn tuned Bellona trying all sorts of techniques to tack. Never was able to do it without going backwards making sort of a modified K turn. I sort of suspect that’s not the type of turn intended but I have zero experience with real world sailing.

Yes this did happened IRL but most ships including well handled 3rd rates (74s) should be able to complete a tack without making sternway. Certain ships were dull sailors or known to be "dull in stays" meaning that they did not tack well and those would end up doing the K turn type maneuver. Of course IRL you had weather and crew training/experience variables as well. Also IRL a ship has to go from about 70 degrees or more on one side to 70 degrees on the other for a successful tack.

[maturin]

2 hours ago, DeRuyter said:

Yes this did happened IRL but most ships including well handled 3rd rates (74s) should be able to complete a tack without making sternway.

That's my understanding as well, but IRL there is probably a less strict understanding of sternway. Speculating a bit here.

The game has a super-accurate knotmeter, so players use the strict standards of no sternway = no water moving forward from the stern.

But for the sailing master, what matters is that the ship has not lost ground during the evolution. When luffing up, the vessel gains a few shiplengths to windward, some of which will probably be lost to leeward or sternward drift as the vessel pays off under the backed foresail. It's hard to imagine a ship actually accelerating while the foresail is backed, after all. So the ship will be making a bit of sternway, but probably at a slow speed and oblique angle that doesn't result in much ground lost to leeward.

So here's Charles W. Morgan, coming about amazingly well. Just 2 minutes from 'rise tacks and sheets' (double-tap Z) to 'let go and haul' (double tap Q). The other minute-and-a-half is just her regaining momentum.

Given these excellent times, full sailplan and short hull, it's hard to imagine a 74-gun ship doing much better.

She seems to 'hang' in on spot for a long time. Naval Action's somewhat squirrel-y sailing model would probably have her making -1.5 kts within a few seconds.* And even -0.3 would offend players as 'sternway', when she is really just turning on her heel.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe someone with experience from Rose or Hermione will show up and say that they really do have a knot of headway while paying off after 'let go and haul.'

 

*Very hard to split the fine hairs and balance the physics model for these little threshold moments, of course.

Also, everyone should look at how fast the main yards are braced around at 0:55. That's what happens when it's done right.

[Quineloe]

Also check out the Star of India video linked right there as well. It's a bit longer, but with an actualy description of what's going on.

Apparently we also need Spanker control.

[Hethwill]

Yes. Also demands less canvas open to even being able to turn the yards and not injury any crew if it fails.

[Hodo]

Just now, Hethwill said:

Yes. Also demands less canvas open to even being able to turn the yards and not injury any crew if it fails.

So what you are saying is we need a viable use for battle sails?

[Hethwill]

10 minutes ago, Hodo said:

So what you are saying is we need a viable use for battle sails?

I can think of a ton others.

Like firing cannon at high heeling... No sane captain would do that in the age of sail. They would aim high or aim low, the pieces... not the ship :). No cannonade at the extreme hull angles like we make in game  without risking serious damage. 

[admin]

17 hours ago, maturin said:

That's my understanding as well, but IRL there is probably a less strict understanding of sternway. Speculating a bit here.

The game has a super-accurate knotmeter, so players use the strict standards of no sternway = no water moving forward from the stern.

But for the sailing master, what matters is that the ship has not lost ground during the evolution. When luffing up, the vessel gains a few shiplengths to windward, some of which will probably be lost to leeward or sternward drift as the vessel pays off under the backed foresail. It's hard to imagine a ship actually accelerating while the foresail is backed, after all. So the ship will be making a bit of sternway, but probably at a slow speed and oblique angle that doesn't result in much ground lost to leeward.

So here's Charles W. Morgan, coming about amazingly well. Just 2 minutes from 'rise tacks and sheets' (double-tap Z) to 'let go and haul' (double tap Q). The other minute-and-a-half is just her regaining momentum.

Given these excellent times, full sailplan and short hull, it's hard to imagine a 74-gun ship doing much better.

She seems to 'hang' in on spot for a long time. Naval Action's somewhat squirrel-y sailing model would probably have her making -1.5 kts within a few seconds.* And even -0.3 would offend players as 'sternway', when she is really just turning on her heel.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe someone with experience from Rose or Hermione will show up and say that they really do have a knot of headway while paying off after 'let go and haul.'

 

*Very hard to split the fine hairs and balance the physics model for these little threshold moments, of course.

Also, everyone should look at how fast the main yards are braced around at 0:55. That's what happens when it's done right.

i think the boat has some sternway on the video which could be very fast as well .. you can judge it by the small boat moving across the bow (a bit behind the ship) at 1.27. 

[vazco]

4 hours ago, admin said:

i think the boat has some sternway on the video which could be very fast as well .. you can judge it by the small boat moving across the bow (a bit behind the ship) at 1.27. 

There's a kilwater in front of her as well at some point, she definitely has some sternway

 

4 hours ago, Hodo said:

So what you are saying is we need a viable use for battle sails?

It's already there. Try turning on battle sails, you won't get a sternway most of the time

[maturin]

2 hours ago, Hodo said:

So what you are saying is we need a viable use for battle sails?

Battle Sails would be a lot more useful if it was just a toggle button that could work with any sail setting. It should just be a 'furl main/fore course' button. (Also the lowest staysails on some ships.)

That way we could get the lower sails out of the way without sacrificing so much speed in a game that is often about energy control. It's pretty clear that the sailing model can support this level of granular detail, especially with the recent patches.

Yard rotation speeds should be a lot better without the main and fore course set.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

45 minutes ago, maturin said:

Battle Sails would be a lot more useful if it was just a toggle button that could work with any sail setting. It should just be a 'furl main/fore course' button. (Also the lowest staysails on some ships.)

That way we could get the lower sails out of the way without sacrificing so much speed in a game that is often about energy control. It's pretty clear that the sailing model can support this level of granular detail, especially with the recent patches.

Yard rotation speeds should be a lot better without the main and fore course set.

I'd still like to see a good chance of fire or some other mechanic to encourage players to use battle sails for.....wait for it.....battle.  Tooling around at 14kts trading broadsides is a bit excessive.  

Past that, agreed on yard turn speed - feels too ponderous right now.  A perfect world would have yard TS also affected by % of sailors assigned to sailing vs. total possible as well (maybe this is already in and I haven't noticed it though). Thinking on it, this has been in for a while, don't know why I didn't remember that. 

 

2 hours ago, admin said:

i think the boat has some sternway on the video which could be very fast as well .. you can judge it by the small boat moving across the bow (a bit behind the ship) at 1.27. 

Watch the national flag on the after stay.  When it's shadowed by the courses, you can see it flying "against" the wind - this is, I believe, another pretty good evidence of sternway.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Henry d'Esterre Darby said:

I'd still like to see a good chance of fire or some other mechanic to encourage players to use battle sails for.....wait for it.....battle.  Tooling around at 14kts trading broadsides is a bit excessive.  

Past that, agreed on yard turn speed - feels too ponderous right now.  A perfect world would have yard TS also affected by % of sailors assigned to sailing vs. total possible as well (maybe this is already in and I haven't noticed it though).

Like how when you disable one side of guns your crew requirement visibly goes down, same thing should happen when you drop sails.

[maturin]

1 hour ago, vazco said:

It's already there. Try turning on battle sails, you won't get a sternway most of the time

I just tried tacking Agamemnon with battle sails and couldn't even get my nose into the wind. I also tried tacking with 9 kts of headway, then switching to battle sails when I was head to wind. It took an eternity to pay off under backed foretopsail.

I sure won't be trying that again!

I'm thinking that different ships behave very differently now.

[maturin]

37 minutes ago, rediii said:

Why did you even try that?

Quote

It's already there. Try turning on battle sails, you won't get a sternway most of the time

...

 

Meanwhile people on the Russian forum are claiming that Battle Sails are great in some situations. But it's a "secret"

[admin]

29 minutes ago, maturin said:

...

 

Meanwhile people on the Russian forum are claiming that Battle Sails are great in some situations. But it's a "secret"

they want battle sails to be great like in old sea trials where battle sails gave +15% turning bonus

[Bart Smith]

Just now, admin said:

they want battle sails to be great like in old sea trials where battle sails gave +15% turning bonus

and accuracy?

[maturin]

19 minutes ago, Bart Smith said:

and accuracy?

If heel is still modest, better to have more sail set for a steadier deck.

[DeRuyter]

5 hours ago, maturin said:

Battle Sails would be a lot more useful if it was just a toggle button that could work with any sail setting. It should just be a 'furl main/fore course' button. (Also the lowest staysails on some ships.)

That way we could get the lower sails out of the way without sacrificing so much speed in a game that is often about energy control. It's pretty clear that the sailing model can support this level of granular detail, especially with the recent patches.

Yard rotation speeds should be a lot better without the main and fore course set.

+1

Also the last thing you want whilst making sternway is the main course aback - very hard to work it around in that circumstance. Blanketing would of course provide another reason to clew up the courses....

[vazco]

20 hours ago, rediii said:

Why did you even try that? Only to not sail backwards?

To not to slow down during a turn, and thus turn quicker. I guess it depends on a ship and it's mods. For some, it apparently works. It's a "secret" though  

 

edit: I must try it on my 9-knot Endy with all the extra balast and weight that it carries

Edited December 13, 2017 by vazco

[Hethwill]

Each ship has its own sail plan, so yep. They act "unique" in some ways.

[GrubbyZebra]

On 12/7/2017 at 5:29 AM, admin said:

Captains

Part 2 of Patch 14 is being deployed today 

Ships of the line and frigates sailing performance is finalized based on:

• Sail percentages on individual masts
  • Spankers
  • Jibs
  • Staysails
  • Spirit sails
• Displacement to sail power (amount of sails in comparison to weight)
• Block coefficient
• Waterline length
• Width to depth ratios now better affect acceleration and deceleration
• Width to Length ratios now better affect speeds and turning
• Crew on sails are adapted to the square area of sails

Speeds, yard power, turning, sternway (backward speed), accelerations, decelerations were changed for all 3 masted ships.

As a result. 

Performance of vessels in combat is now extremely realistic. If your ships has a bigger spanker or more jibs you will see a slight difference on how this ship reacts to wind.
You can fail a tack if you do things wrong and do not use yards. If you try to tack at low speeds you will get completely stuck in irons if you don't use your yards. 

Example of the failed tack

Other changes

• Speed will be affected by structure damage. If your structure is below 70% you will see a degradation of speed and will have be more careful when conserving structure. In other words you will not longer see light frigates zooming away at 14 knots having 2 bars of structure left.
• Open world speeds slightly improved at bad winds (you will travel slightly faster) - this is done to compensate to significant changes to square sailer curves

Next patch: Part 3 will cover hp, br and speed performance for light vessels (2 masted and 1 masted ships)
 

some indicative stats
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vpd0gIGgJNqaRYqAppB3IbX_TX8zNhx-nVY1jq72QFA/edit#gid=0

Please use this topic to feedback on the sailing performance of frigates and lineships. 

@admin, the speed penalty for structure damage needs to be less dramatic. Right now, it's like no penalty until 70%, and then someone puts on an emergency brake. Maybe start it at a lower percentage of damage (like 30% or 40%) and have is scale 10% speed reduction per 6 or 7% of damage.

[Farrago]

1 hour ago, BPHick said:

@admin, the speed penalty for structure damage needs to be less dramatic. Right now, it's like no penalty until 70%, and then someone puts on an emergency brake. Maybe start it at a lower percentage of damage (like 30% or 40%) and have is scale 10% speed reduction per 6 or 7% of damage.

Yes. The loss in speed needs to gradual. Otherwise, a ship is more or less doomed before it can repair or disengage.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Farrago

[Yngvarr]

10 hours ago, Farrago said:

Yes. The loss in speed needs to gradual. Otherwise, a ship is more or less doomed before it can repair or disengage.

Well, the structure bar is divided into 8 blocks, so why not make it a gradual change per 1 block of structure lost = speed loss of 12.5 %

These number might be a bit too severe, losing 2 blocks of structure would result is a 25% speed loss.