Forthcoming shipbuilding changes [Heavily Moderated]

[Jack Jones]

ammo supply will work like double charges

we find it very strange that a cutter can fire 10000 shots in battle. We believe it should be a player choice. If you want your ship to be a little bit faster or agile and you are confident that you shoot well take less shots per gun. (But they will still refill after every battle to save your time) they will only matter in the instance).

Same with the unbalanced ships potential.. if you remember the gunboat capsizes this bug could be spread to all ships - make your ship too fast (lots of sails) you might capsize if you don't control wind pressure at extreme angles of heel

Awesome. I like it its realistic.

What will happen to our existing ships?

Will we be recompensed r will we all be in Cutters?

Good move.

[Elouda]

Overall I like the suggestion. Also completely approve of wiping legacy ships with it - this should honestly have been done every time there were major changes to ships/crafting, otherwise the legacy stuff can skew the data.

 

As for the 'rare' BPs - you really need to reconsider this frankly stupid manner of handing them out via tournaments. On top of that - all of the 3 'rare' BPs (Heavy Snake, Aga and L'Ocean) are arguably 'top tier' vessels in their own port battle brackets, which makes this twice as bad. I honestly would not really care nearly as much if 'special' or 'interesting' ships (like Santa Cecilia) are handed out this way, but making key PB/RvR vessels unavailable to the general crafter? Thats a hell of a motivation to quit, I'll tell you.

[Bountyhunter]

Announce more changes that make playing or crafting until then pointless, see you learned nothing from the loss of players leading up to the port wipe. 

[Fenris]

Hehe

All the precious pixel wiped out.Luv it

[dhyran]

The whole idea is great!

I like those changes!

 

Bring it on 

[Neverdead Ned]

I think this is a step in the right direction although I really haven't minded the previous ways to craft different types of ships.  I think you have to realize two things...1.  No matter what you implement, there will be people who don't like it so DO NOT GIVE INTO THEM.  2.  No matter what type of personalization choices you make (be it a tier system, or wood quality, or upgrade choices) people will eventually settle for cookie cutter builds.  While variety of choices in personalization is appreciated, you can't force people to diversify.

[admin]

 

As a way to hand out "special" ships or BP - it blows great chunks. There are plenty of good players who didn't/couldn't/won't make the tournament - why punish them by rewarding only the "elite" with the cool ships?
Even RNJeesus shines on the so-so player from time to time.
I am now officially boycotting your "special" ship hand out method ....

 

Well what do you mean by "punsh" i am sorry. Every good player should participate in the future tournaments. We are making them a game functionality thanks to community who made the first 3v3 tournament happen.

 

Psst. maybe you can bring out your Agamemnons (that mostly british players have) and capture those Santa Cecilias?

 

 

So Admin, you just gave me a santa cecilia just to take it away again in a few months time?

 

You are going to make me cry :*(

Well as a honorable Gentleman from the North you probably know that it is a good idea to express gratitude for unexpected gifts

[Hagen v Martius]

I am sorry, but are you actually trying to kill this game? MONTHS to build ships? Our hundreds and in some case thousands of hours of crafting and sailing in this game being "unusable due to database changes and will have to be removed from the game. " 

Read the post again... 

You are raging about the possibility that there is going some sort of unique/special looking ship that is only available with some special hoops.

That bit was NOT talking about regular ships.

[Jeheil]

Having pondered long and hard on this, I have consolidated my thoughts. Its an instantly better conversation now it has an approx ETA and we all know dev cycles and accept slippage/changes.

 

Wipes are totally key for testing. No problem at all. But so are players (who are your testers). BALANCE THIS.

 

So when you implement a big change like this (not the big wipe it should be pure). Just give us each say 5 redeemables (they can be one dura) so we aren't all sent back to day - zero. Give us all a shallow, frigate, line and a couple of traders (shallow and deep). Thus your player base won't be crippled.

 

I very much like the idea of more versatile crafting system (see previous post on SWG model). And would be more than happy to help test it to make this fantastic game the complete article.

 

I like the idea of 'loadout' (cannons, powder) effecting the weight/hold capacity. I don't like having to sail back to port every 15 mins to restock...especially because the new (much improved) combat missions need more sailing to get there.

 

I hold true to the design principle that those who put in more effort, take more risk, reap greater reward.

 

Give us some sugar with the test. When adding in this new model, why not add in ship naming and think about micro-transaction ($1) skins, figureheads, sail decals etc

 

It is super important you 'clear' to test. It is super important there is enough of us here...having fun...building reputation etc.

 

Oh and the angst in many posts to your idea...is a reflection of how much YOUR playerbase has invested and love your game...so even if its not well voiced, doesn't align with your perspective at the very least recognise this.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Jeheil

[HoopDreams]

Honestly announcing this with so much time before the update actually takes place - just look at what happened with the lastest update, it was said to happen in early September, but it ended up being released almost 2 months after the announcement. This caused so many players to stop playing, and because it wasn't just a week or two, many still have yet to come back.  We are likely to a similar thing.  Also, announcing with out having a plan on how to compensate people who have spent countless hours being able to craft in this new system, or those with rarer ships that they are likely to not be able to get again, or can't craft themselves, seems really silly and is going to cause people to get upset (rationally or not, but either way it can be back for the game).

[The MetaBaron]

you have my support, I like the direction this is taking!

[Destraex]

I think this sounds like a move in the right direction. You cannot beat human nature and this patch will go with the flow.

I agree that from what I have seen nobody will build anything but gold no matter how hard you make it.

The differences in a ship now should be randomly generated and determined by upgrades as well as the traits chosen during upgrade.

I think we have enough variety of wood types and ship building options to make this interesting without needing specific quality levels. This will also mean most ships are at least ok for any noobs and make the game more reliant on player fighting and crafting skill even if they are new.

 

Please don't move testing to an internal build. This will just negate the feedback you will get that you got to bring these new ideas  for this ship building modification forward and cause pain further down the road. Stay the course.

 

Unfortunately another human trait we have running here is that people seem to be playing the game and pouring huge hours in like it was permanently released. I am referring to those that could not stand to lose ships. This is again human nature and I suggest you give people equivalent to what they have now in the new database (which you may have intended anyway). This should keep your testers playing and they will still replace ships as they lose them.

As long as we are talking about human traits... please remove GREY from the game all together and replace it with a colour like green or blue for captured ships. Otherwise people may not use them. Heck why not leave them gold? Apart from 1 dura they will have similar stats will they not? Or do you want people to build ships by virtue of captured ones being unviable and have all ships be 1 dura?

 

P.S. I hope gunpowder/shot is not too much of a pain to aquire. But just prevents people using unrealistic amounts in smaller ships to smash first rates from behind which would never have happened in cutters.

 

P.S.2. Will ship colour scheme be a crafted by region and wood type combo thing?

 

P.S.3 I agree that everybody hates the tournament/event blue print drops or rare drops. The problem is they are too pinpoint and most of the time only a select few powerful clans are successful at them or can attend the correct time zones. Rare things should be acquired with a more equal chance for all imho...  

[Helbent]

 2.  No matter what type of personalization choices you make (be it a tier system, or wood quality, or upgrade choices) people will eventually settle for cookie cutter builds.  While variety of choices in personalization is appreciated, you can't force people to diversify.

 

I think this is a good point. There are some key ship parameters which 95% of the player base will care about. You can spend a lot of effort on adding lots of customization which ends up really not being used. Finding the core values and focusing on how to do those seems like a better way to get to the result as quickly as possible and get something out to test.

 

I would honestly break things up by ship and crew... Key ship parameters like speed, hull strength, crew size, hold size, etc... can be tweaked by shipbuilding, while "crew" parameters like reload, boarding, tacking, etc... are things tweaked by upgrades. 

[Destraex]

I think this is a good point. There are some key ship parameters which 95% of the player base will care about. You can spend a lot of effort on adding lots of customization which ends up really not being used. Finding the core values and focusing on how to do those seems like a better way to get to the result as quickly as possible and get something out to test.

 

I would honestly break things up by ship and crew... Key ship parameters like speed, hull strength, crew size, hold size, etc... can be tweaked by shipbuilding, while "crew" parameters like reload, boarding, tacking, etc... are things tweaked by upgrades. 

It seems this is what they are doing by denying some crafting attributes if others are chosen. If they are all valued attributes then people will outfit a ship for a specific purpose leaving them vulnerable to other specialised builds. I originally wanted tell tale graphical signs in the battle instances on ships that showed this... 

[Cecil Selous]

 

I would honestly break things up by ship and crew... Key ship parameters like speed, hull strength, crew size, hold size, etc... can be tweaked by shipbuilding, while "crew" parameters like reload, boarding, tacking, etc... are things tweaked by upgrades. 

 

Interesting thought. I for myself would like to see that some minor upgrades will stay for the ship (maybe you already need them during the crafting process, like they are build in everytime + 1 permanent and 1 regular upgrade slot where you can customize a bit) and everything crew related like reload, boarding and tacking be based on experience which the crew members gain over time. Therefor crew must become persistent. Not all of them need a name or something similar deep, but it would be nice if the game could keep track of their status somehow. For this the doctor perk must become a standard game mechanic since we lose so much crew at the moment, that this feature wouldn't justify the effort to code it. 

[Pagan Pete]

I am Pagan Pete, and I approve these changes.

 

[Bart Smith]

Stop building ships and just take those you own for PvP and learn, practice have fun! Simples 

[Wesreidau]

So these people winning exceptional ships through tournaments.

 

They'll be the people already sailing exceptional ships.

 

And you've otherwise killed the mid to end game by removing quality levels. And Rear Admirals will be buying frigates with their ten million gold from the same pool that lowly First Lieutenants shop in. So we'll see prices spiral out of control for the new player, as there are no low or mid-tier ships for low levels to shop among while high levels playing in frigates buy the exceptionals.

[Slamz]

Regarding "removed from game" --

 

How hard would it be to break all ships down into components and mail them to people, similar to the server transfers? Could even bottle up the labor hours used to make them.

 

That should eliminate quite of lot of the general tears and seems fairly straightforward to do. People could largely turn around and remake the ships using the new system, +/- whatever the new recipes require.

[z4ys]

I like your proposal but I have a couple of suggestions.

First I like to say:
I like to pvp and do hardly no pve. In pvp equipment matters because of that I hardly use one dura ships for it. Why I do so? Its hard to obtain modules and equip a ship only to lose it in an blink of an eye. Because in pvp there are always people that are better. The effort it takes to outfit a captured ship is much higher than outfit a crafted ship. (not talking about Sols i never use them)

Because of that my suggestion is:
Every crafted ship is basic ship with no inbuilds. The only thing a crafter can change is the woodtyp and some ship specifics like bigger cargo hold... (and it would be possible to make all ships 1 dura).
So you buy such a basic ship. Now you sail with that ship to a region. Every region offers a special setup of inbuilds like we have now with the regional inbuilds. Inbuilds are sorted in groups (like copper plate and speed trim belong to the group speed). Its only possible to obtain one inbuild per group.(lets make the choise hard like the officer perks) Furthermore make some regular modules to officer perks like we already have the pump perk.
A nation would have to conquer to get specific inbuilds like its now with the regional inbuilds.
Ship inbuilds can be bought for money and labour hours at that ports but no materials which make everything so grindy and there is only one grade of inbuild so no grey or green ....

Captured Ai ships can have inbuilds from regions that are under control from ther former owner. But they can be refitfed. Removing inbuilds cost labour hours and money too.

In my opinion that make everything less grindy and get player faster into action. Furthermore the fear of loss is reduced cause it is easier to get a new ship.
 

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

I have cleaned up this topic.  The topic is the potential new shipbuilding changes and your thoughts and feedback on that system.

 

While Admin has been kind enough to respond to some off topic posts, and I have left those posts and a few of the responses to them intact, we need to get back on topic here.

 

• If you want to complain about event/tournament rewards - there's a thread for that.  Please search.
• If you want to complain about the numbers of players playing right now, I'm not sure if there's a thread for that - maybe go create the great "Where did all the players go and why!?!?" thread in General Discussions.
• If you want to complain about the "fairness" of some ships being harder to get than others, let's create a thread for that too - General Discussions would be fine..
• If you want to discuss (in the abstract) gaming theory and the idea that because everyone paid for a game they should get the exact same things in the game regardless of effort or time put in - please create a thread for that discussion in the Tavern and keep it apolitical.  It is way off topic for these forums.

 

It is VERY difficult for the developers to sort through a giant mess of off topic posts looking for genuine and legitimate feedback for this feature.  Posts going forward will be strictly moderated and warnings handed out.

 

Thank you for your assistance in providing feedback on this particular feature.

[Blaatand]

I Like addition of balanced properties and captured grey only.....

 

BUT NOT the simplification of ship levels

 

I have seen many inputs and many comments to durability, quality and crafting.

I do not think the current fine wood model is the key in itself....

 

I saw one post that concurs with my thoughts. Make time the delimiter for quality and ships.

 

I see it this way:

Material crafting follows current model

 

Ships crafting is separated into a Shipyard with 1 to 3 slots depending on crafting level or perhaps Rank

These slots can be used for

1 building ships (you can ONLY build a basic ship)

2 modifying ships  (change a trader to carry only aft guns or add chasers to another vessel - tradeoffs needed - one size smaller broadside guns for larger chasers??)

3 improving ships (2, 4, 8 day upgrades to finer qualities and only one quality level per time)

4 rebuilding durability (Ships have durability 1 but the wreck will be delivered to your yard)

5 Research (ALL blueprints are earned by researching a captured vessel - this takes time but NO drop rates and you need to capture or buy a ship first - NPC should only sell the basic ships)

 

to get a spread in ships qualities cost in materials and time to build MUST be exponential (2, 4, 8, 16..) - a linear spread makes the cost too easy to overcome and you will see grey golden only.

 

For time cost to build make it depending on crafting level, rank and ship rating. Basically making it impossible for a new player to build a 1st rate. Time requirements can be modified as the spread in ships become apparent.

To implement you HAVE to reduce ALL ships in game to grey and green. Then if it takes a week to make a golden people will settle for a blue - knowing that option 3 in the yard allows for a 3 day upgrade to purple later.

 

This method will both accommodate new and casual players AND the big hardcore clans - remember - diversity in population will be the only way to make this world perpetuate!!!!

 

I think this solves many of the current issues in one fell swoop :-)

 

Blaatand

[Magnum]

If the NEW shipbuilding system is more fair and egalitarian than a system where a few elite players get better ships than us plebes - I'm all for it

 

I think a system where ANY player can buy ANY Blueprint is a fair Blueprint system. A system where ANY player can buy ANY ship is a fair ship ownership model.

 

Why have in game money if it means NOTHING? - I have 200 Million in game cash and STILL can't build an Agamemnon because NO BP.

[BallsOfSteel]

Devs are correct, no one was buying colored ships. Only Gold. 

I make them for my use hauling stuff MC ships are fine with speed trim and copper.

Im more interested in the effect of the notes

[Dharus]

I like the main crafting changes.  Its true that people really try and get the "perfect" ship.  So having regular, gold, and special seems fine.  Special makes me worried a little about it unbalancing PvP but the way the ship tuning has gone I'm less worried than if this was another game.

 

The changes make me question way have so many crafting levels?  Are level 30 crafters going to be crafting ships equal to level 50 now as long as they have the BPs or are the ships still going to be level capped?  I wasn't a fan of the level progression setup in this game because it's pretty old school and grinding.  I still like the game so I just didn't bother maxing levels quickly.  I'd suggest toning down the grind per level.  If I were to redo from scratch though, I'd make the level reputation dependent (much like I'd do with combat levels in general) and crafters who make goods that are used somehow* gain reputation that could be applied to getting BPs.  Then you've solved the random BP dropping and change the feel of being a crafter from a grinding planks 24/7 to max level to more market savvy challenge.

 

*Gaining reputation could be similar to ships used by players gain xp.  In addition, each crafted item might be tagged as well and allow them to generate reputation xp when used in a recipe.  Though I think this might tax the server item table a bit.

 

-------------

 

I'm not sure about those additional changes.  It seems like its developer work that could be better spent on something else.