Why ReClassifying or Buffing of 3 Ships Is Needed

[van der Clam]

This image is a great visual to see precisely how many ships require permits that are purchasable only via Combat Medals. It also shows which ships are out-classed by ships of lower class. Please answer the Poll that relates to this image.

First section highlights which ships are not craftable without permits (denoted with *) or because they are DLC/Gift ships

• Notice only 2 of 4 4th rates are available; 50% - 1 of these 'uncraftables' being reclassified up to this class that has lower stats than the others
• Notice only 9 of 17 5th rates are available; 52.9% - 2 of them being Trader Ships, leaving only 7 craftable warships
• Notice only 7 of 12 6th rates are available; 58.3% - 2 of them being Trader Ships, 1 of them being only for Port Battles, leaving only 4 craftable warships
• Notice only 6 of 11 7th rates are available; 54.5% - 2 of them being Trader Ships, leaving only 4 craftable warships

Remaining sections highlight which ships have worse stats than ships in rates below it. Categorized by:

• Guns
• Crew
• Broadside

Notice how the 3 recently re-categorized ships fall significantly behind, not just slightly. This means that these ships are no longer usable in missions for these rates, means they are no longer usable in PvP Zones for these rates, means they are no longer usable in Port Battles because of their new BR. Frankly, it means these ships are worthless for anything but completing generic missions against lower rated NPC ships. Sure, they might be usable in PvP, but only against lower rated ships. Even adding the best buff mods you can, these ships will still under perform against ships of lower class with the same buff mods. An now with Rare Woods, these ships stand no chance if they are made of less quality woods. Add onto it the Crafting RNG that makes 90% of the ships only 3/5s.

I suggest:

• Changing the USS United States, Constitution, and Indefatigable back to their respective Rates
• Making only 1 ship per rate uncraftable without a permit (except for DLC/Gift ships, of course)
• Decreasing the RNG effect as we level up in Crafting XP
• Getting rid of Rare Woods
• Making 4th Rate NPC capturable

Discuss.... 

Edited April 3, 2019 by van der Decken
Fixed typos and set bolds

[Angus MacDuff]

I voted but to be fair, this poll comes too soon and with the low population will not give a good sampling.  It's fairly easy to get combat medals now so I'm not sure that there is any problem getting permits that way.  The tougher challenge is to get the permits from chests only.  It's looking like the only way to get a SOL permit is from an Admiral's chest and the only way to get that is to kill 10 players in SOLs.  In addition, I would say that the rare woods issue is going to be a bigger detriment to crafting than the permit wall.  As far as the different ratings for a particular class of ship goes, im not sure I care.  If you don't like a particular class or rate, you just don't use it.  One ship is always going to be the worst of it's class.

[Ligatorswe]

19 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I voted but to be fair, this poll comes too soon and with the low population will not give a good sampling.  It's fairly easy to get combat medals now so I'm not sure that there is any problem getting permits that way.  The tougher challenge is to get the permits from chests only.  It's looking like the only way to get a SOL permit is from an Admiral's chest and the only way to get that is to kill 10 players in SOLs.  In addition, I would say that the rare woods issue is going to be a bigger detriment to crafting than the permit wall.  As far as the different ratings for a particular class of ship goes, im not sure I care.  If you don't like a particular class or rate, you just don't use it.  One ship is always going to be the worst of it's class.

I voted but dont mind if it stays as it is. I just think that constitution should get a buff. It is a ship close to my heart. ❤️

Combatmedals are easy to get. And you can buy them on the market, they are cheap. One trade mission, 30 minutes on sea, and i can buy 8-10 of them (if i visit one harbour).

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

The Connie and her sister felt off moving to 3rd rates. I am fine with indefat being a 4th. It never felt right as a 5th rate. There are a few of the 5th and 5th rates that require medals I feel could be dropped. The woods are fine. Getting enough as is.

[Archaos]

I do not think the ships permits behind CM's is the problem its the ones behind the RNG chests from PvP. At least with CM's you have a target and various ways to achieve it, but with RNG you could be unlucky and not get the permit you want for a long time.

[James Cornelius]

I think this is a great poll and it would seem I agree with most players.

 

However, I highly doubt that any changes will be made based on this poll.

[van der Clam]

48 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

.....It's fairly easy to get combat medals now ...

Indeed it is, however, I wish I had added a Poll Question about the ease of CMs. IMO, CMs should be available for only PvP IF there were only 1 ship per class requiring marks....which I thought they would be. As I remember reading a post from admin, only the best ships in each class was going to require Permits.  It's kind of sad to me that one can farm NPC in the PvP Zones to get CMs. Even more sad is that that is what I do most of the time, because in my TZ rarely anyone shows up in the PZs...and too often the PZs are in the Bahamas, which to me is no fun because of the DLC ships always out classing me. Altho, come to think of it, the only PZ I've done there is the Nassau one, which is 6th Rate, but sharks circle me in their 5th rates. heh

I would like to see some more responses on the Rare Woods, Crafting RNG situations, too.

32 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I do not think the ships permits behind CM's is the problem its the ones behind the RNG chests from PvP. At least with CM's you have a target and various ways to achieve it, but with RNG you could be unlucky and not get the permit you want for a long time.

I'd like to see each of these permits be available on random NPC ships. Say I want the Wasa permit. I hunt some Wasa and the permit happens to be on some. Let that be the RNG....as long as it's not 1 in 100, or something ridiculous like that.

[Teutonic]

I am thankful to gain a position to allow my clan to extract rare woods. Personally I am with @Velhelm Von Marrius on this matter that it seems fine as is, we get all the woods we need and haven't had much problem. to be fair that is before the doubloon mission changes, so we will have to see.

I dislike how the permits and RNG permits have created such a limitation, and currently it's not doing us any good, mainly because many players still... STILL have ships from before the changes. You want these ships to be difficult to get or not a lot of them out in the water? sure, fine. but we clearly haven't seen how it'll play out and can't give a proper response to it.

Connie and USS should be 4th rate, Indefat is fine as 4th rate if i dare say so myself.

I'm not sure about making 4th rates captureable...I am on the fence and side with no at this time.

[van Veen]

Ship rating is not so important although it bothers me because of inconsistent application of historical facts. Agamemnon and Ingermanland are 3rd rates. NA is advertised as historically accurate, but who cares? Putting super-frigates in the 4th rate makes sense somehow, as the game treats 4th rates as frigates in many ways and not as SOLs. But a frigate as a 3rd rate? Come on! Anyway, this is not a real game breaker. 

Inaccessibility of woods, permits and RNG is a game breaking issue. The multitude of currencies is the main problem. It serves no purpose other than channeling rewards to associate certain gear with certain activities. In effect, it enforces a certain style of playing. This is bad game design in an open world sandbox game per se. But what makes it a game breaker is the style of playing which yields best output: ganking in the patrol zones. This is killing not just the open world sandbox, but also the casual player base. 

 

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

5 minutes ago, van Veen said:

Ship rating is not so important although it bothers me because of inconsistent application of historical facts. Agamemnon and Ingermanland are 3rd rates. NA is advertised as historically accurate, but who cares? Putting super-frigates in the 4th rate makes sense somehow, as the game treats 4th rates as frigates in many ways and not as SOLs. But a frigate as a 3rd rate? Come on! Anyway, this is not a real game breaker. 

Inaccessibility of woods, permits and RNG is a game breaking issue. The multitude of currencies is the main problem. It serves no purpose other than channeling rewards to associate certain gear with certain activities. In effect, it enforces a certain style of playing. This is bad game design in an open world sandbox game per se. But what makes it a game breaker is the style of playing which yields best output: ganking in the patrol zones. This is killing not just the open world sandbox, but also the casual player base. 

Inger and Aggy our out dated 3rd rates is why they are moved to 4th rates.  Well more the Ingermanland was.

[Saint George]

Ship Rates as most of us know were historically based on number of guns. For example the history books state that "A third rate was a ship armed with between 60 and 84 guns, usually on two or more continuous decks, with the 74 gun ship of the line being the most common."

Now, since firepower can vary considerably between ships of the same gun number, but having different gun sizes, it makes sense in a game like this to base rates on the maximum attainable broadside weight of a ship as armed with the largest caliber / pound shot guns it can equip.  

Other factor like Hit Points should only be used to determine rate if the ship is sort of "on the fence" between one rate or another.

This would prevent ships with similar HP, like the Constitution and Bellona, being rated the same, even though the Constitution can only muster a broad side weight of 704 in game but the Bellona can achieve a broadside weight far greater at 1064 in game.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Saint George

[Saint George]

48 minutes ago, van Veen said:

Inaccessibility of woods, permits and RNG is a game breaking issue. The multitude of currencies is the main problem. It serves no purpose other than channeling rewards to associate certain gear with certain activities. In effect, it enforces a certain style of playing. This is bad game design in an open world sandbox game per se. But what makes it a game breaker is the style of playing which yields best output: ganking in the patrol zones. This is killing not just the open world sandbox, but also the casual player base. 

Exactly.

[James Cornelius]

21 hours ago, van Veen said:

Ship rating is not so important although it bothers me because of inconsistent application of historical facts.

I agree with this perhaps as strongly as I've agreed with anything on these forums in a long time.

 

The developers, and many players, have what appears at times to be a slavish devotion to "historical realism". Yet, in many situations, it is a very subjective devotion as so many decisions are made or rules enforced in the name of realism, but in so many others realism is tossed aside for very arbitrary decisions. 

 

The inclusion of the Constitution and now United States as 4th rates makes/made sense based on the historical capabilities of the ships. To put them as 3rd rates is both ahistorical, as they were never considered as such by the contemporaries, and ridiculously unbalanced compared to other 3rd rate ships of the line in the game.

 

This entire process is yet the latest example of the developers "reinventing the wheel" every few months for some magic level of balance, realism, fun, etc that is never going to exist. The more they change this or remove that, or add this, the farther and farther it gets from what used to be a very enjoyable game. 

 

MMOs like this have had a rough go of it lately. Games like Fractured Space and Dreadnought, while focused on space combat, had a very similar kind of niche and have now basically folded (FS already and DN pretty soon I think). NA, largely through poor decision making by developers but aided and abetted by a player base that often didn't know what it wanted and drove away the casual base of players that would have made the game successful, now has a "Mostly Negative" rating on Steam. Why is that? I'll tell you one thing it's not: it's not some conspiracy to bomb the ratings as some might suggest.

 

It's because this is a game that seemed on its surface to be about something very clear and obvious, but under the hood could never figure out what it wanted to be. Yes, it's in Early Access but it has been for three years. The wild swings in balance and play style have been completely unnecessary and have driven countless players away. 

 

I have a love/hate relationship with the game. It was one of the games I was most excited to ever play - and I've been playing PC games since my first computer in 1992. Its promise has been totally squandered and, at this point, I hate to say it but NA will NEVER be a successful game no matter how much some of us might have wanted it to be.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Lord Robert Calder

[Malachi]

48 minutes ago, Lord Robert Calder said:

-snip-

A most excellent post, sir.

[van der Clam]

I'm no moderator, but to future posters, please do not stray from this OP topic. We don't need any more threads turning into dev bashing, game bashing, references to Steam reviews, etc. I'd moreso like to know how the subjects in the poll have affected your game play, if any at all. Certainly, we value everyone's opinions, but trying to state your own opinion as facts to predict the future of this game and dev group are not required. Remember that there are indeed others with the opposite opinion. 

TY & carry on...

Edited April 3, 2019 by van der Decken

[AeRoTR]

Combat Medals are acceptable, "RNG PERMITS" is the real problem. Yet increasing required combat medals by 300% or more, also made combat medals the second problem. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by AeRoTR

[Sir Texas Sir]

8 hours ago, van der Decken said:

This image is a great visual to see precisely how many ships require permits that are purchasable only via Combat Medals. It also shows which ships are out-classed by ships of lower class. Please answer the Poll that relates to this image.

First section highlights which ships are not craftable without permits (denoted with *) or because they are DLC/Gift ships

• Notice only 2 of 4 4th rates are available; 50% - 1 of these 'uncraftables' being reclassified up to this class that has lower stats than the others
• Notice only 9 of 17 5th rates are available; 52.9% - 2 of them being Trader Ships, leaving only 7 craftable warships
• Notice only 7 of 12 6th rates are available; 58.3% - 2 of them being Trader Ships, 1 of them being only for Port Battles, leaving only 4 craftable warships
• Notice only 6 of 11 7th rates are available; 54.5% - 2 of them being Trader Ships, leaving only 4 craftable warships

Remaining sections highlight which ships have worse stats than ships in rates below it. Categorized by:

• Guns
• Crew
• Broadside

Notice how the 3 recently re-categorized ships fall significantly behind, not just slightly. This means that these ships are no longer usable in missions for these rates, means they are no longer usable in PvP Zones for these rates, means they are no longer usable in Port Battles because of their new BR. Frankly, it means these ships are worthless for anything but completing generic missions against lower rated NPC ships. Sure, they might be usable in PvP, but only against lower rated ships. Even adding the best buff mods you can, these ships will still under perform against ships of lower class with the same buff mods. An now with Rare Woods, these ships stand no chance if they are made of less quality woods. Add onto it the Crafting RNG that makes 90% of the ships only 3/5s.

I suggest:

• Changing the USS United States, Constitution, and Indefatigable back to their respective Rates
• Making only 1 ship per rate uncraftable without a permit (except for DLC/Gift ships, of course)
• Decreasing the RNG effect as we level up in Crafting XP
• Getting rid of Rare Woods
• Making 4th Rate NPC capturable

Discuss.... 

Could you maybe color code this so that the DLC's are one color, CM permited ships another color and RNG loot drop permits another color?  That would maybe give us a clear picuture of what is going on.  That are link the spread sheet so we can edit ourselves.  

 

Oh and how the hell do we get LGV refit these days?  I was thinking of getting another and can't find it any where.  DOn't tell me random loot drop ship too?

 

[van der Clam]

23 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Could you maybe color code this so that the DLC's are one color, CM permited ships another color and RNG loot drop permits another color?  That would maybe give us a clear picuture of what is going on.  That are link the spread sheet so we can edit ourselves.  

 

Oh and how the hell do we get LGV refit these days?  I was thinking of getting another and can't find it any where.  DOn't tell me random loot drop ship too?

Good call on the LGV Refit. It used to be available in Admiralty with dbls. Info on my sheet is from https://na-map.netlify.com/

Here's the file, what I posted was an image of it merged together. Feel free to post your edited version in here: MessedUpRates.ods

Edited April 4, 2019 by van der Decken

[Slim McSauce]

Unpopular opinion: I actually like the patched economy. I think once reals moved over into their own missions they became valuable again, people can afford to put in more money into the general economy because that's where reals are with ships and upgrades. Combat Medals are ok for me, I'm sort of OK with the rng, it promotes missions. PvP missions still lacking imo. Doubloons are useless now, again one currency is devalued by the others, but I think permits for doubloons would be the icing on the cake, giving each currency their spot.

On topic: Controversy for ship ratings, I don't mind too much Constitution at 3rd, it has the thickness and health to be classified as one, but everything else on it is trash and same the the USS United States. Broadside weight doesn't compete with even 4th rates like the Ingermanland and the Indefagitable, turn rate is plain bad, it's the 3rd rate you're going to get raked over and over, except without the all you need is one wrong move and the enemy is wrecked. So for me I would have to say either buff it's turn to 4th rate levels to compensate for it's attrocious broadside weight to other 3rds and even some 4ths, or just it back down to 4th where it will compete with the Aggamenom, the Ingermanland and the Indefagitable, or the ships that are considered outdated or undersized SOL's.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Hethwill]

Balance is blind to individual human concerns.

Hence voted for balance and hope for the best.

 

[van der Clam]

19 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Unpopular opinion: I actually like the patched economy. I think once reals moved over into their own missions they became valuable again, people can afford to put in more money into the general economy because that's where reals are with ships and upgrades. Combat Medals are ok for me, I'm sort of OK with the rng, it promotes missions. PvP missions still lacking imo. Doubloons are useless now, again one currency is devalued by the others, but I think permits for doubloons would be the icing on the cake, giving each currency their spot.

On topic: Controversy for ship ratings, I don't mind too much Constitution at 3rd, it has the thickness and health to be classified as one, but everything else on it is trash and same the the USS United States. Broadside weight doesn't compete with even 4th rates like the Ingermanland and the Indefagitable, turn rate is plain bad, it's the 3rd rate you're going to get raked over and over, except without the all you need is one wrong move and the enemy is wrecked. So for me I would have to say either buff it's turn to 4th rate levels to compensate for it's attrocious broadside weight to other 3rds and even some 4ths, or just it back down to 4th where it will compete with the Aggamenom, the Ingermanland and the Indefagitable, or the ships that are considered outdated or undersized SOL's.

IMHO, I like the new econ too, altho the missions rewards are quite lacking, and I'm no fan of the rare woods.

As I saw the Connie and USSUS  they both barely competed with the Aggy and Inger having 10 - 8 less guns than each. Now they're in a class with 20+ less guns than others. Same for the Indef; it just cannot compete with other 4th rates due to lack of guns. 20+ more guns means a buttload of more damage dealt...especially against something with so much less armor.

[Guest]

IMO the thickness should reflect a ships quality in real life in this game the HP should reflect where it fits. Admin said that the USS United States and Constitution had so much hp because of their density and real life quality, i feel this is a wrong therm to balance them, as its unrealistic. Yes the USS frigates  are super heavy frigates, and they along with maybe indef deserve the rate as a 4th(light) rate. Those 2 ships had great thickness compared to other frigates of that era and that should be their immense advantage over other frigates, but the would struggle fighting a equal sized lineship, because of their density and those 4th rate sols where built to stay in a line of battle against ships sometimes double their sides.

So to round it of the USS frigates and maybe indef should stay as 4th rate for what they are and have HP fit for a frigate but of course higher than usual maybe 11k or something

[Sir David Green]

22 hours ago, van der Decken said:

Good call on the LGV Refit. It used to be available in Admiralty with dbls. Info on my sheet is from https://na-map.netlify.com/

Here's the file, what I posted was an image of it merged together. Feel free to post your edited version in here: MessedUpRates.ods

 Made my edited version of the spreadsheet. Orange = You must get a RNG permit for, can't get, and the alpha ships (Yacht). Red = Permit can be gained from admiralty. Green = DLC Ship. Blue = Event ship. Purple = Trader ships. White = The combat ships that we can actually craft without having to get permits and such.

[Teutonic]

@Sir David Green I believe a slight correction - the Christian can be crafted now. If I am wrong then someone please correct me.

[van der Clam]

Well done. Makes it look like crafting is even more bleak than my sheet. 😕