Why did players leave?

[Australian Minister]

I would like to know why would I play a Sovereign Nation v Pirate?

Are there CLEAR pro/cons?

Are there going to have CLEAR mechanics/resources to each Sovereign Nation?

 

The upcoming "Clan Wars" patch on having Sovereign Nation Capitals at the Edges and having them "Safe" by strengthening the defending area to then have the "Centre" of the map hostile is probably the most courageous move towards the positive.

Well done Devs.

[The Spud]

I think its just as soon as the word wipe drops, people just put the game on hold until its "wiped". It seems somewhere the word mapwipe got dropped and people just immediatly stopped the RvR, which is less people, which then causes the PvP oriented people to stop playing bit by bit. Its just how it goes.

Comes the wipe, people will be back, new conquest system, more ships, etc... there's even people holding off for the UI to be finished.

 

[victor]

7 hours ago, Pitxagorri said:

Why?

They can never be forced to introduce things they do not believe are correct, you are free to suggest but we are here to test and give feedback not to make the game to our liking.

True, but it is also true that a MMO that players do not like is a game that does not go too far and therefore feedback has also the purpose of making the game more enjoyable.

But - basically - Devs have focused the problem when they said that it was quite a mistake going too far by the path of the "super hardcore" game as they did in the last "mega patch". I foresaw that the "hardocore gamers" (which are actually a minority) would have quit the game for the lack of PVP caused by their own hardcore attitude (if you scare away the prey too much, the predator ends dying of starvation).

Actually I am still playing (even if a little bit bored, I admit), but I think that next change will make things easier and more funny (and - hopefully - that they will add some new kind of content just to give players some more options).

Edited September 1, 2017 by victor

[Hawkwood]

13 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Lack of content. RVR  is the worse offender, when it should be 1/3rd of the game (RVR, PVP, and everything else) Its barely 5% no one wants to touch.

Fix RVR and there's content to keep people engaged between patches, without it PVP dies, and the game goes into hibernation until update.

RvR is good as it is atm, i am talking about PBs. Atm it is the only possibility for a fair fight, 25 vs 25, 50/50 chance to win for both sides.

You will NEVER have such opportunity in OW, or mostly NEVER.

Lack of PvP has always the same reason. Being afraid of losing the ship, and there is no other reason beyond that.

Because of it, i would remove completely permanent upgrades, and make all possible gimmicks and upgrades as "once achieved,can be used all the time".

[Hethwill]

16 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Being afraid of losing the ship, and there is no other reason beyond that.

This is NOT exclusive of Naval Action. This happens consistently and constantly across all games including non-perma-loss game types.

Players will run, hide and overall deny "the game". Not saying it is right or wrong. Stating it is a novelty factor in gamer mind visible on the last half a dozen years.

Ultimately they will deny "the game".

[Thonys]

16 hours ago, admin said:

90% of battles in EVE pvp ends up with kill mail only. no xp no money.
yet of course one can say that you can level up pvp skills in eve by just sitting in station in 1.0

not true:

please  better not  use EVE as an example  (and in this context)

there are to many ways in EVE to overcome that problem

also:

there is no xp in eve ,that is because there exists no xp in EVE (only skill injectors and  skill points)

and even when sitting in any station it  will reward you with skill points>>>  in NA it has no effect at all 

there are no kill mails in Naval action (in eve you got at least a mail ,.....in NA you get a small log line > battle news)

also, there is/are the bounty hunters who have,..... if they want..... 100 % money from killing pilots  (they life for it)(bounty system pay out)

[Hawkwood]

12 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

This is NOT exclusive of Naval Action. This happens consistently and constantly across all games including non-perma-loss game types.

Players will run, hide and overall deny "the game". Not saying it is right or wrong. Stating it is a novelty factor in gamer mind visible on the last half a dozen years.

Ultimately they will deny "the game".

Well i am not saying that this is exclusive of NA, but here we are. Depends on many things entering a battle.

If the permanent upgrades are more valuable than ship itself, most players will not fight 1 vs 1, no matter if the opponent has bigger or equal ship.

Even both never know what kind of upgrades the other one has.

So...High crafting costs for permanent upgrades + high costs for cannons + 50/50 % chance of losing a battle 1vs 1= run away

(although mostly using mediums myself in small frigates :))

 

 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Cortez

[Hethwill]

Games with no loss at all experience exactly the same mindset. They, the 90%, will avoid combat.

The reality is that a multiplayer persistent open world PvP combat game relies on willing and unwilling combat.

 

 

[Skully]

New players lack:

1. Knowledge, we don't tell them anything, they are probably spies anyway;
2. Skill, but this can happen over time, not on demand;
3. Reward, for their time put into this game.

Then skill will come and with it knowledge of the game and ultimately we have new players become veterans (as well) happily ganking fair fighting away. 

[Thonys]

5 hours ago, The Spud said:

I think its just as soon as the word wipe drops, people just put the game on hold until its "wiped". It seems somewhere the word mapwipe got dropped and people just immediatly stopped the RvR, which is less people, which then causes the PvP oriented people to stop playing bit by bit. Its just how it goes.

Comes the wipe, people will be back, new conquest system, more ships, etc... there's even people holding off for the UI to be finished.

 

very true , very true...

i even think..... that 88 % are lookers ........and not participating development (with a reason of their own)

if the product is not finished they will leave it as it is  until the release

i call it sneak preview gamers waiting for their early chance to get involved with a head start....

 

what also means the flud has not arrived..... yet ..

 

if you look at that perspective , I don t understand why people get upset ...we must keep the fait .. till the END..

 

 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Thonys

[Guest]

Haven't any issues with the "hardcore" aspects of the game. Had an absolute blast after the patch wipe trying to get some start-up money in a cutter, holding all of my equity in trader holds for risky runs to make a profit, spending all earnings just to be able to fit a ship or two, and now that it's all invested it's quite easy to roll out a myriad of PvP ships on demand - for self-sufficient production you just need to be 2 peeps, that's it.

But then you have the grindy crap that is passed off as being "hardcore", which is complete and utter bullcrud.

Want to RvR? PvE grind. Want ship knowledge? PvE grind. Want combat marks? PvE grind. I am fortunate in having enough spare time that I could actually do it, and I still won't because it's just so f'ing boring.

And for reasons that completely backfired, the near-infinite repair system has become way worse than the 1/1 repairs that we used to have. Trying to fix something that wasn't broken, nor did I ever see a word about how players were asking for it anywhere.

Want to fight another PvP ship? Prepare for a 1+ hour chase scene. Leaving people to only have to engage if they're at an advantage, or flee. Want to sail a different ship? Nah mate, follow the ship meta or don't even bother with it now that it's a battle between chasers, speed caps and repairs. Messed up in a fight? Just disengage for a while, repair up and rejoin. That's casual and gamey as hell if anything is, making it easy to recover from bad decisions and giving huge control for whichever (usually larger or faster) team that controls the fight for their buddies to disengage, and greatly favours idiotic tactics with ramming and PIT maneuvers. What is this, Need for Speed?

No wonder why 90% of the PvP is targeting PvE players and traders, there is no other choice,  if you sail out in a PvP fleet you're just wasting your time if looking for anything other than mission ganking and trader hunting.

Wasted too many hours sailing around trying to find a fight, and thus moved on. Don't actually expect much to change with the patch, haven't heard a single word in regards to any changes to repairs, speed caps/balancing, ROE e.t.c. Just managed to piss off the casual crowd now, and now they're gonna piss off everyone who's left with yet another 180'.

 Gonna wait for Legends, tired of headbutting a brick wall.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Guest

[Sven Silberbart]

48 minutes ago, Aegir said:

..

But then you have the grindy crap that is passed off as being "hardcore", which is complete and utter bullcrud.

Want to RvR? PvE grind. Want ship knowledge? PvE grind. Want combat marks? PvE grind. I am fortunate in having enough spare time that I could actually do it, and I still won't because it's just so f'ing boring.

Absolutely Correct!

And for reasons that completely backfired, the near-infinite repair system has become way worse than the 1/1 repairs that we used to have. Trying to fix something that wasn't broken, nor did I ever see a word about how players were asking for it anywhere.

Correct

..

Wasted too many hours sailing around trying to find a fight, and thus moved on. Don't actually expect much to change with the patch, haven't heard a single word in regards to any changes to repairs, speed caps/balancing, ROE e.t.c. Just managed to piss off the casual crowd now, and now they're gonna piss off everyone who's left with yet another 180'.

Correct, but a new 180° change is needed this time. Current hardcore state of the game isn't healthy

 Gonna wait for Legends, tired of headbutting a brick wall.

Ya, this Alpha is the most stressful Alpha I've ever played worked. (But I don't wait for that boom boom boom version of NA :-)

 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Sven Silberbart

[Jean Ribault]

1 hour ago, Aegir said:

...

And for reasons that completely backfired, the near-infinite repair system has become way worse than the 1/1 repairs that we used to have. Trying to fix something that wasn't broken, nor did I ever see a word about how players were asking for it anywhere.

...

 Gonna wait for Legends, tired of headbutting a brick wall.

 

I don't get that repair system change at all either.  The original 1/1 was pretty darn good.  Maybe it was a shot at countering ganking, if you had enough repairs?  At any rate, it's just plain dumb IMO, and as an unwanted outcome now you lessen the impact of the type of ships that are in the battle.  In theory, if you had enough time and enough repairs you could defeat most anything in your free cutter.  That's just dumb.

Legends?  No thanks, I enjoy the open world created here, and log-in-bang-bang-bang-log-off is not what I'm interested in.

[Hodo]

16 hours ago, Pitxagorri said:

Why dont you guys let @admin work on the game and instead of seeing how bad the game is now you enjoy the good part or play another game?

 

The problem is we tried that... and it ended up being a game development cycle as if it was being put out by an ADHD hyperactive toddler.  A little bit here, a little bit there, and then a whole lot at once, then wipe it all and start over.

16 hours ago, Liquicity said:

I say we should all chillax a bit. NA Arena seems to be pretty close. Have some biff there. Unload our pressure there, kick each others head in until we can't swim anymore :D. Gives the undoubtful BEST ASPECT of the game, combat, especially pvp, some promotion. If they allow us to record / stream it, new customers might be interested.

But I still have to say; as long as there is no really helpful UI and starter manual INGAME, not some youtube tutorials, the new player retention rate will stay low.

Some of us dont want World of Warships Sailing edition.

16 hours ago, Quineloe said:

So the players who enjoy not being rewarded for PVP are playing EVE. You can't convince them to play NA instead, so why try?

In EVE you loot the wreck and can make billions doing it, enough to pay for your monthly subscription.   I know of people who average 2-4bil ISK a week just pirating in EVE.   That is roughly 30-60USD a week in sub fees they can avoid.  

[Rhodry Heidenrich]

18 hours ago, admin said:

majority of games don't give participation trophies. eve/wow/many others. in fact i can't name a single mmo that give xp or money if you did not kill an enemy. We had this effort rewards but they were exploited. Thus we chose a proven way because everyone else (every other mmo designer) have already figured it out.

 

You've brought up WoW a couple of times.

 

Look, PvP in WoW is not the same as PvP in Naval Action. Open world PvP in modern day WoW is a laughing stock footnote because it's idiotically imbalanced, and there's pretty much no reason to do it. The reward for beating down some poor sod is the mere satisfaction that your class was able to two shot theirs. The only thing anyone loses in a gank is 30 seconds of time, so there doesn't need to be any kind of "participation trophy". OW PvP in WoW has no impact on anything, at all, which is why it's not exactly a selling point for the game. 

"You should come play World of Warcraft! The open world PvP is amazing" --- Nobody, Ever

 

Meanwhile, in the game you're doing a great job of sailing off of the edge of the world to become a forgotten footnote in time (which is sad, because I actually like the game), Open World PvP is one of the focal points. One of the issues with OW PvP is a lot of players are unwilling to fight unless they know they're going to win, which is why ganks and seal clubbing are so prevalent. Getting absolutely nothing on top of what you lose when you sink in this game is counter incentive to want to PvP. I don't think anyone here feels that the losing captain should get anything that resembles the rewards the winner gets. I doubt many people feel that you should be able to "lose" your way to affording a 1st rate. The sentiment is, however, that given the time investment this game requires to be able to be functional within it, some kind of reward should be present for everybody as a way to keep people willing to re-equip and try again. 

 

 

[Jean Ribault]

11 minutes ago, Rhodry Heidenrich said:

...One of the issues with OW PvP is a lot of players are unwilling to fight unless they know they're going to win, which is why ganks and seal clubbing are so prevalent. Getting absolutely nothing on top of what you lose when you sink in this game is counter incentive to want to PvP.

...The sentiment is, however, that given the time investment this game requires to be able to be functional within it, some kind of reward should be present for everybody as a way to keep people willing to re-equip and try again. 

 

 

Not disagreeing, but adding.  The reason that we have this situation is because of the severe loss you take in the OW PVP.  As has been discussed hundreds of posts since the patch, the community in general knows ships are too expensive and you have to grind a lot to gain it back.  With the 1-dura change from the patch, and adding those two things to the 1-dura, that's put us here.

I want to see more ship availability and cheaper prices and much quicker re-acquisition time.  Or give us back scaled duras on the ship tiers.  It's just that at the moment we've flipped 180° from too easy ships to too hard ships.

[z4ys]

30 minutes ago, Rhodry Heidenrich said:

 

You've brought up WoW a couple of times.

 

Look, PvP in WoW is not the same as PvP in Naval Action. Open world PvP in modern day WoW is a laughing stock footnote because it's idiotically imbalanced, and there's pretty much no reason to do it. The reward for beating down some poor sod is the mere satisfaction that your class was able to two shot theirs. The only thing anyone loses in a gank is 30 seconds of time, so there doesn't need to be any kind of "participation trophy". OW PvP in WoW has no impact on anything, at all, which is why it's not exactly a selling point for the game. 

"You should come play World of Warcraft! The open world PvP is amazing" --- Nobody, Ever

 

Meanwhile, in the game you're doing a great job of sailing off of the edge of the world to become a forgotten footnote in time (which is sad, because I actually like the game), Open World PvP is one of the focal points. One of the issues with OW PvP is a lot of players are unwilling to fight unless they know they're going to win, which is why ganks and seal clubbing are so prevalent. Getting absolutely nothing on top of what you lose when you sink in this game is counter incentive to want to PvP. I don't think anyone here feels that the losing captain should get anything that resembles the rewards the winner gets. I doubt many people feel that you should be able to "lose" your way to affording a 1st rate. The sentiment is, however, that given the time investment this game requires to be able to be functional within it, some kind of reward should be present for everybody as a way to keep people willing to re-equip and try again. 

 

 

At the moment the reward of running away, which means you keep your ship guns perma mods crew and your ego are much higher then the actual reward you would get out of a 1on1 even you win.

That's why I run. That's why I pick fights with the potential profit much higher than costs. That's why I hunt traders.

That's why we have the rule: evade man o wars only look for traders.

Doing pvp against fighting ships in even fights only drains your money even you win everytime you can't get rich with that. You have to do pve/trading or tradehunting or ganking in oder to make money and to stay competitive if you lose your ship.

Edited September 1, 2017 by z4ys

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

5 hours ago, The Red Duke said:

Games with no loss at all experience exactly the same mindset. They, the 90%, will avoid combat.

The reality is that a multiplayer persistent open world PvP combat game relies on willing and unwilling combat.

 

 

@The Red Duke makes an excellent point.

As with any combat, both parties will determine their SA (situational awareness) within the first few seconds and if one of them thinks they are at any disadvantage they will seek to disengage. This IS the smart move.

Personally, I would never seek to engage if I am at a disadvantage. Just because the enemy shows up, I should do battle for their entertainment? Pfft! enjoy watching my stern. I'm never going to throw away my hard efforts in saving and/or building my 1-durability vessel just because someone shows up to fight me if I know I can't win. I don't have that suicidal, non-nonchalant, no care in the world if I lose my vessel attitude because my clan will recoup my loss.

From my point of view... I am far less willing to fight in OW if I have the slightest inkling I am at a disadvantage, which is most of the time now. Even when it seems I have the advantage, I am still thinking... "is this the vessel I am going to be engaged with or is his buddy/s going to all-of-a-sudden appear with him". And if it's a clanner, I know they are not alone. Due to the 1-durability vessels, these are more expensive to build, save and recover from a loss of said vessel. For many solo sailors, a loss of a vessel which took a long time to get can be very devastating to recover from.

For me... it feels like I am the deer, who at the slightest movement, is ready to bolt.

[Captain Lust]

11 hours ago, Ratarded said:

Rum (My grandpa died this year, I dug him up and poured rum on him) It didn't work...Why?

Haha, i find the magicals super glue fixed masts and endless sail repair more stupid / unrealistic even... but fair point.

[Captain Lust]

2 hours ago, Aegir said:

Haven't any issues with the "hardcore" aspects of the game. Had an absolute blast after the patch wipe trying to get some start-up money in a cutter, holding all of my equity in trader holds for risky runs to make a profit, spending all earnings just to be able to fit a ship or two, and now that it's all invested it's quite easy to roll out a myriad of PvP ships on demand - for self-sufficient production you just need to be 2 peeps, that's it.

But then you have the grindy crap that is passed off as being "hardcore", which is complete and utter bullcrud.

Want to RvR? PvE grind. Want ship knowledge? PvE grind. Want combat marks? PvE grind. I am fortunate in having enough spare time that I could actually do it, and I still won't because it's just so f'ing boring.

And for reasons that completely backfired, the near-infinite repair system has become way worse than the 1/1 repairs that we used to have. Trying to fix something that wasn't broken, nor did I ever see a word about how players were asking for it anywhere.

Want to fight another PvP ship? Prepare for a 1+ hour chase scene. Leaving people to only have to engage if they're at an advantage, or flee. Want to sail a different ship? Nah mate, follow the ship meta or don't even bother with it now that it's a battle between chasers, speed caps and repairs. Messed up in a fight? Just disengage for a while, repair up and rejoin. That's casual and gamey as hell if anything is, making it easy to recover from bad decisions and giving huge control for whichever (usually larger or faster) team that controls the fight for their buddies to disengage, and greatly favours idiotic tactics with ramming and PIT maneuvers. What is this, Need for Speed?

No wonder why 90% of the PvP is targeting PvE players and traders, there is no other choice,  if you sail out in a PvP fleet you're just wasting your time if looking for anything other than mission ganking and trader hunting.

Wasted too many hours sailing around trying to find a fight, and thus moved on. Don't actually expect much to change with the patch, haven't heard a single word in regards to any changes to repairs, speed caps/balancing, ROE e.t.c. Just managed to piss off the casual crowd now, and now they're gonna piss off everyone who's left with yet another 180'.

 Gonna wait for Legends, tired of headbutting a brick wall.

Sad truth... if this was reddit i'd give you gold for this post. I enjoyed the game alot too after the wipe until i realized the grind you mentioned ( not the ship/cannon cost - thats managable ).

Edited September 1, 2017 by Captain Lust

[Fargo]

16 hours ago, z4ys said:

When people complain the game is a full time job, it is maybe not because things take to long to do maybe it's because things are not fun to do.

Exactly. Making things easier and easier wont improve bad mechanics, people would stop playing even faster.

This topic is a great example how the majority of people has no clue what they are talking about. There not even are any long time goals, but people want faster progress. Players own gold and assets worth millions, but complain about expensive ships. Whats that logic?!

[Hawkwood]

1 hour ago, WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot said:

@The Red Duke makes an excellent point.

As with any combat, both parties will determine their SA (situational awareness) within the first few seconds and if one of them thinks they are at any disadvantage they will seek to disengage. This IS the smart move.

Personally, I would never seek to engage if I am at a disadvantage. Just because the enemy shows up, I should do battle for their entertainment? Pfft! enjoy watching my stern. I'm never going to throw away my hard efforts in saving and/or building my 1-durability vessel just because someone shows up to fight me if I know I can't win. I don't have that suicidal, non-nonchalant, no care in the world if I lose my vessel attitude because my clan will recoup my loss.

From my point of view... I am far less willing to fight in OW if I have the slightest inkling I am at a disadvantage, which is most of the time now. Even when it seems I have the advantage, I am still thinking... "is this the vessel I am going to be engaged with or is his buddy/s going to all-of-a-sudden appear with him". And if it's a clanner, I know they are not alone. Due to the 1-durability vessels, these are more expensive to build, save and recover from a loss of said vessel. For many solo sailors, a loss of a vessel which took a long time to get can be very devastating to recover from.

For me... it feels like I am the deer, who at the slightest movement, is ready to bolt.

Nobody said you need to fight 1 vs 2 or 1vs 5... Everyone runs away when the opponent has the numbers, that is not the point.

But what kind of disadvantage you can have in 1 vs 1?

As mentioned before, the fear of losing the valuable PERMANENT upgrades on a ship causes more runaways than anything else.

Those are valuable, not the ship, since Fir/Fir Surprise or similar 5th rate, can be easily bought in almost each capital.

Once again, remove the perm upgrades, remove all upgrades, replace them with 8 additional perks which can be used permanently, once learned as a skill book., and those can be used when the slot is unlocked.

 

 

[Liq]

7 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Nobody said you need to fight 1 vs 2 or 1vs 5... Everyone runs away when the opponent has the numbers, that is not the point.

But what kind of disadvantage you can have in 1 vs 1?

As mentioned before, the fear of losing the valuable PERMANENT upgrades on a ship causes more runaways than anything else.

Those are valuable, not the ship, since Fir/Fir Surprise or similar 5th rate, can be easily bought in almost each capital.

Once again, remove the perm upgrades, remove all upgrades, replace them with 8 additional perks which can be used permanently, once learned as a skill book., and those can be used when the slot is unlocked.

Can you give us a few examples or super good and super expensive perma upgrades? Since speed mods got nerfed to oblivion I dont think they're that much of a must have anymore. And other decent mods, like northern carpenters, +4% repair, are like 10k gold per

Something I don't understand:

> builds fir / fir surprise, because gotta go fast
> meets an enemy surprise, doesn't want to fight him because his ship is too weak.

Why the f. did you decide for a fir fir build then in the first place.

[Hawkwood]

Just now, Liquicity said:

Can you give us a few examples or super good and super expensive perma upgrades? Since speed mods got nerfed to oblivion I dont think they're that much of a must have anymore. And other decent mods, like northern carpenters, +4% repair, are like 10k gold per

Something I don't understand:

> builds fir / fir surprise, because gotta go fast
> meets an enemy surprise, doesn't want to fight him because his ship is too weak.

Why the f. did you decide for a fir fir build then in the first place.

Bowenwinds cost several hundred thousands.

Cartagena Tar/Caulking Refit goes to millions.

Copper plating almost impossible to find, and if someone is offering it costs not less but millions as well.

Crooked Refit almost the same..

Northern carpenters i wouldn`t need on a light frigate, officer perk would do , but thats up to you

Fir/Fir is just an example. You can build your Surprise however you want.

Or you already know when you go 1vs1 ,what kind of shipbuild your opponent has?

Btw, thank you for this invisibility mess. That was your idea right ?

 

 

[Liq]

4 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Bowenwinds cost several hundred thousands.

Cartagena Tar/Caulking Refit goes to millions.

Copper plating almost impossible to find, and if someone is offering it costs not less but millions as well.

Crooked Refit almost the same..

Northern carpenters i wouldn`t need on a light frigate, officer perk would do , but thats up to you

Fir/Fir is just an example. You can build your Surprise however you want.

Or you already know when you go 1vs1 ,what kind of shipbuild your opponent has?

Btw, thank you for this invisibility mess. That was your idea right ?

 

 

why would you want bovenwind / copper plating / crooked hull now? 2% speed each, some even with severe downsides. Totally not worth it. My teak teak surp does 12.6 knots according to stats, works fine.

Well you know you can combine the carpenter upgrade with the perk. and the skill book. all together you can make much more out of repair, which can allow you to win in outnumbered situations aswell

I also think the idea of invisibility is fine, although some tweaks are still needed. It did what it was supposed to, stopped revenge ganks, captains across the map in a port can no longer TP to a nearby port and sail to battle pos. profiting from the 75x OW compression
IMO it does need to be tweaked in a way that during invis youcan't see other ships though. And / Or increase the "you cannot attack" timer afterwards.