Alliances - final design

[Mrdoomed]

I can not believe all the pirate rage. Nothing changed for pirates as far as i can see. They will continue to function exactly as they are now . Plus if THIS silly thing has so many pirates mad its REALLY gonna get worse as more serious changes seem to be comming.

Might as well start changing to nationals now before it gets worse and you take the chance of having ships removed etc. All you will lose is BPs but still keep lvl and xp so you can probably have them back in a week.

On a side note from a pirate who operates as a pirate. Please stop speaking for all of us . This patch will have 0 impact on me at all. Hell it might benifit me if it gets commerce moving more.

This patch is just thier first attempt to weed out pirate nationals from pirates. Might as well just get ready.

[Vernon Merrill]

Getting maximum participation is national leaders work. They have to work with their nation to influence the voting. 

If alliance is not renewed = its broken and your nations become enemies again.

 

 

I am being critizised a lot becourse I like to play the game as it is made - not what a SMALL group of self-pronounced leaders would like me to play.

 

I simply cant understand why you make such a fuzz about it. Even less so, as I think that all customers derserve an equal vote as they actually are buyers of the game. In all other places than here - I would be on the right side of things.

 

But here the arguments have been put upside down. Maybe less than 10% of the player base is involved in the diplo-stuff and yet the guys who are involved in this - like to rule things - AND in a way that goes against the game-mechanics. And in order to do this, they use all kind of arguments from "join the pirates", "low-IQ", "cant fit into groups" to "why are you in a nation".

 

IM JUST PLAYING THE GAME AS I BOUGHT IT!

 

THAT IS ALL THAT SIMPLE!

 

Am I the only one here that find it very weird that a group of players tries to drag their own, private RvR - TS - diplomacy down on our others heads?

 

Well since the developer see it as this way...

 

Seriously, you have the same opportunity to influence the player base as everyone else.  If you choose not to work as hard at it as others, thats your choice.

 

As far as being "on the right side of things"...  SJW's were frowned upon in the Napoleonic-era armed forces...

[Skully]

I can not believe all the pirate rage. Nothing changed for pirates as far as i can see. They will continue to function exactly as they are now . Plus if THIS silly thing has so many pirates mad its REALLY gonna get worse as more serious changes seem to be comming.

Since when is seeking mechanics that work for everybody, including Anolytic, mikawa, Dragonfire, Wind, akd, Jeheil, Obi-Heed Kenobi, Sir Texas SIr, Thonys, Otto Kohl, Snoggy, Hethwill, fox2run, you and myself, pirate rage?

Especially for z4ys: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15241-buy-a-port-bribe-a-lord/

 

The purpose of politics is to give players tools to enforce what they agreed on on forums/chats/voicecomms

Where does it say Pirate (Clans) must be excluded?

Basically I'm only stating that the design as described currently, does not meet that goal.

Which personally I find a big bummer.

 

Might as well start changing to nationals now before it gets worse and you take the chance of having ships removed etc. All you will lose is BPs but still keep lvl and xp so you can probably have them back in a week.

On a side note from a pirate who operates as a pirate. Please stop speaking for all of us . This patch will have 0 impact on me at all. Hell it might benifit me if it gets commerce moving more.

This patch is just thier first attempt to weed out pirate nationals from pirates. Might as well just get ready.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/9824-thanks-fellow-rats/

Do I see a Pirate National we need to get rid off?

[Leku]

Please allow one vote per week for account. This way alts cant be used to abuse voting. And people with various countries characters must choose wisely where they want to vote

[Mrdoomed]

Since when is seeking mechanics that work for everybody, including Anolytic, mikawa, Dragonfire, Wind, akd, Jeheil, Obi-Heed Kenobi, Sir Texas SIr, Thonys, Otto Kohl, Snoggy, Hethwill, fox2run, you and myself, pirate rage?

Especially for z4ys: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15241-buy-a-port-bribe-a-lord/

Where does it say Pirate (Clans) must be excluded?

Basically I'm only stating that the design as described currently, does not meet that goal.

Which personally I find a big bummer.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/9824-thanks-fellow-rats/

Do I see a Pirate National we need to get rid off?

Sorry man i dont understand what the pirates are upset about. Nothing in this update will effect my play even the sightest.

[Hethwill]

Sorry man i dont understand what the pirates are upset about. Nothing in this update will effect my play even the sightest.

 

Me neither but Skully is referring to the whole spectrum of the black.

 

I say to the pirates-of-the-line - sit tight, endure and wait for the more focused pirate/privateer changes.

 

When they hit you can worry about everything and finally decide if you are up to the, many times requested, new pirate way or not.

[Skully]

Sorry man i dont understand what the pirates are upset about. Nothing in this update will effect my play even the sightest.

Every happy player, regardless of faction, counts. So it's good to know that your gameplay will be unaffected.

[Mrdoomed]

Every happy player, regardless of faction, counts. So it's good to know that your gameplay will be unaffected.

Im a pirate why in the world would peace and war be anything i care about and why in Gods name would i want to follow orders from some fat pirate king when i wont bow to an english king?

Pirates are not effected by this patch only pirates who wish to act like the english.

My original point is just that if this is bothering you already then youre gonna lose your mind whem pirates are reworked. Its best to start adapting now or switch and get a head start.

This isnt ment to be a lecture im trying to just say its gonna get worse so dont worry about this.

[Powderhorn]

Skully, you reference a post where Hethwill suggests mods could put information out there for the "forumites" as he puts it.  Simply put, I don't know what is planned for pirates.  I doubt the other moderators know what is planned for pirates.  The developers themselves may not have it firmed up yet, as they are still working on Alliances.  The entire thread is supposed to be about Alliances and people are in here screaming about Pirates.  Each time I see a developer in here trying to keep up with page after page of people asking about information on Pirates is a period of time where developers are not developing what they currently stated they are working on:  Alliances.  If you want to know what changes are coming for pirates:  Be patient.  If you want to know what changes are coming even sooner, stop filling up page after page of what is supposed to be a development thread on Alliances with questions about Pirates so the developers can actually get to developing pirate gameplay.

[Powderhorn]

Discussions of pirates themselves, other than how the proposed mechanic will affect their gameplay, are off topic, and will be hidden accordingly.  Please keep on the topic of Alliances.

[CaptVonGunn]

Discussions of pirates themselves, other than how the proposed mechanic will affect their gameplay, are off topic, and will be hidden accordingly.  Please keep on the topic of Alliances.

 

 Thought that was ? Given that Historically Pirate Captains and even small groups(clans) were known to make deals with Nations for short and long periods of time. If that is not part of the Alliance format then it is already flawed before starting

[Bulwyf]

Think this sounds like  a great idea, simple and effective.

[Nash]

A problem that no one has mention is how can we prevent the biggest nation makes an alliance with the second biggest nation?

 

Should we do it by counting ports or players? I prefer counting port.

[Johny Reb]

The change in the pirate mechanics has to start somewhere. This is a good start. Immediately, they are reduced to something other than a nation which is what most seem to want. Pirates will have to immediately change their play style. Not much maybe for now but they will have to start thinking about their futures and their relationships. This is a good way to ease them into a new and greater pirate mechanic

 

If they feel at a disadvantage against nations then they must choose wisely who and how hard they attack.

 

__________________________

 

The problem as I see it is as follows.

There are three types of players:  The RVR PVP players, the RVR crafters, and the Carebears. Both RVR PVP and Crafters move and shake within the confines of the relationships with other nations. The Carebears sit and fish or fleet all day almost entirely outside of those confines except when they are running, and they have every right to but should they really be deciding the rvr of the game? Alliances are irrelevant for pve'ers.

 

Playing within the RVR game should be a prerequisite for voting in an RVR mechanic.

[Sven Silberbart]

The problem as I see it is as follows.

There are three types of players:  The RVR PVP players, the RVR crafters, and the Carebears. Both RVR PVP and Crafters move and shake within the confines of the relationships with other nations. The Carebears sit and fish or fleet all day almost entirely outside of those confines except when they are running, and they have every right to but should they really be deciding the rvr of the game? Alliances are irrelevant for pve'ers.

 

Playing within the RVR game should be a prerequisite for voting in an RVR mechanic.

 

You nailed it. I agree 100%.

[fox2run]

You seems to forget that in OW peoples way of using the game can change. Ive tried different things. I started as RvR PvP, then I turned crafter, trader, solo PvP, Clan-founder and now Im a bit sceptical about how the RvR community kind of "look down" on players that do other things and in reality tries to gain advantages in game they really shouldnt have.

 

The framework for a game likes this should equalize all players not just one group. Remember that a small cutter-noob will be involved in the game if he can participate on his own level including contribute to the nations voting-system and small scale battles. One day that guy own his own clan with 250 dedicated players... who knows... but dont isolate newcomers ore casual players by getting all the advantages piled up in "the top" RvR-clans.

[Skully]

The change in the pirate mechanics has to start somewhere. This is a good start. Immediately, they are reduced to something other than a nation which is what most seem to want. Pirates will have to immediately change their play style. Not much maybe for now but they will have to start thinking about their futures and their relationships. This is a good way to ease them into a new and greater pirate mechanic

 

If they feel at a disadvantage against nations then they must choose wisely who and how hard they attack.

 

__________________________

 

The problem as I see it is as follows.

There are three types of players:  The RVR PVP players, the RVR crafters, and the Carebears. Both RVR PVP and Crafters move and shake within the confines of the relationships with other nations. The Carebears sit and fish or fleet all day almost entirely outside of those confines except when they are running, and they have every right to but should they really be deciding the rvr of the game? Alliances are irrelevant for pve'ers.

 

Playing within the RVR game should be a prerequisite for voting in an RVR mechanic.

RvR in Nations is NvN. I think we can easily agree on that. (Well not quite, but read on. )

RvR in Pirates is CvC. And we have the "true" clanless Pirates.

And once you have the two levels, then CvC becomes a part of NvN, as can been seen in the Three Admiral Treaty.

This is the tricky part which needs to be modeled carefully. It will either define a ground-breaking alliance mechanism or destroy the game.

But at the least, we should strife for a mechanism that caters to all.

[Skully]

And yes, Pirates are balanced asymmetrically, but that is a goal.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Skully

[admin]

 

 

Playing within the RVR game should be a prerequisite for voting in an RVR mechanic.

 

 

Yes - thats why the landlord votes (based on port captures and war effort points) is not yet dropped. But remember that everything except port captures can be farmed. 

Thus: Initially alliances will be for testing purposes - votes will be granted for everyone - and they will be constantly reset during bug fixing and tuning. 

[Lannes]

So the question becomes: how to deal with folks not following Nation orders?

If we simply disable attack, then they only have one option: stop playing.

[edit] Forgot to note, from a Clan perspective it is already handled: kick.

This is the level of reasoning that makes playing with others impossible sometimes.

Nota Bene: I have PAID for a game which is both PvE and PvP. The GAME is still in development, and I contribute to its development for FREE.

ASSUMING: The Devs move toward a complex, stressful game that makes it difficult for INDIVIDUAL players to play successfully without joining Clans and Nations. The devs decide that only Landlords can vote in National POLITICS. Many players do not have a SAY. Eventually, Landlords run their Nations and Clans according to their whims and preferences. Individual players (who have paid for the game at the same price as Landlords) are marginalized and forced out of the game. Wasted money and wasted time plus stressful interactions RESULTS.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Lannes

[Vernon Merrill]

Again...  EQUALITY of OPPORTUNITY is NOT the same as EQUALITY of OUTCOME...  You are correct when you say that you paid for the game , just like everyone else.  Now if they choose to provide player-based content and you dont, that is not THEIR problem, that is YOUR problem.

 

My $.02

[Powderhorn]

I think you two are at a point where it is appropriate to say, "Agree to disagree."

[Skully]

This is the level of reasoning that makes playing with others impossible sometimes.

Nota Bene: I have PAID for a game which is both PvE and PvP. The GAME is still in development, and I contribute to its development for FREE.

ASSUMING: The Devs move toward a complex, stressful game that makes it difficult for INDIVIDUAL players to play successfully without joining Clans and Nations. The devs decide that only Landlords can vote in National POLITICS. Many players do not have a SAY. Eventually, Landlords run their Nations and Clans according to their whims and preferences. Individual players (who have paid for the game at the same price as Landlords) are marginalized and forced out of the game. Wasted money and wasted time plus stressful interactions RESULTS.

Nation should not dictate Clan, which should not dictate Ship.

A captain should always be master and commander of his own ship. The choice of sticking to the politics on a higher level should be a player decision, not an enforced one.

However consequences should be in there as well.

Or rather: what makes up Parliament?

At least I think we can all agree that Pirates do not have a Parliament.

To give the historians something to ponder over: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Parliament_of_Great_Britain

Politics is about control of assets, yet going against the higher order has its consequences. It is all about freedom of choice of the individual player.

The higher order is made up out of players who provide content.

• Privateer, fighting for their Nation.
• Crafters, building for their Nation.
• Ship builders
• Land owners
• More?

It just a matter of figuring out how the votes can be tallied. As admin says, this is the hardest part of the thing and very tough to find something that can not be abused by powergamers.

[edit] forgot the freedom part

Edited August 4, 2016 by Skully

[Anolytic]

What if nations were "seeded" in regards to their alliance options. Based on their historical strength or on their actual in-game player numbers. So that if say, France, Great Britain and Spain are the most populated nations in-game then they are seeded to the same level. And if maybe only 1 or 2 nations from the same seeding level can be in the same alliance block, then those three nations could not all be allied together, or possibly they would all 3 have to form separate alliance blocks. Kind of like the football championships initial groups.

[Prater]

A way that might discourage alts from being able to vote is have voting being tied to RvR like Johny Reb suggested.  Have it so that you have to generate so many RvR points to vote.  Participating in a port battle the previous week would give you all the required points to vote.  Contributing so much contention the previous week would give you a vote.  Have the amount be a point where it isn't hard for a casual player to contribute to get a vote but an alt would have to actively work against his nation.  Another way to gain vote points might be to donate resources to defenses (for econ players).  So an alt would have to actively work against his nation or donate resources to his enemy to get a vote.