Remove 1.5BR anti-gank programming

[Jerome]

Anti-ganking mechanics are bad.  It should all be player decided; each player has a ship with guns and sails at their own risk.

 

I would hate to be part of a group that cannot all get into a fight because of this nonsense. 

 

Why are the devs caving to what is a minority of literally the losers?  For every player crying about ganks, there are at least two happy players sailing their new boat.  Now the devs are punishing people that organize and sail together.  PvP welfare handouts...

 

One of the main attractions of this game was the hard-core unrestricted pvp.  It should be advertised as such, in fact, bragged about.  No crying on the open sea.

 

There is already a perfect anti-gank mechanic in the game.  PvE server.  Go there.

 

As pointed out before, this kind of mechanic resulted in POTBS population loss.  It started the game downhill.

[Slamz]

Fir ships winning a roughly equal fight and competent opponents?  Unlikely.

 

So let's say we're all in fir speed ships and you're all in live oak tank ships.

 

The problem is you will never outweigh us by more than 1.5x BR. You might have 5x our BR but then we just avoid you. You will have to break off a fast tackler to nab us (probably more than 1 so that you have the BR to conduct the hit with) and then your slower ships can fill it out, only up to 1.5x BR. The rest of your fleet sits outside.

 

We might not kill you in that case but most or all of us will be able to escape (we would probably try to string you out and sink your faster ship and then run if we have to. The beauty of fast ships is we can try to fight and then break off at any time if it's not working.)

 

 

But what happens when WE outnumber YOU by 5x BR? We hit you as a blob. You're too slow to run away. We sailed in together so we all get into the fight. You all get sunk because no amount of live oak and extra planking counters that much BR difference.

 

 

This is why this is really not an argument about ganking. Ganking is still alive and well. Speed is still king. It's really just a question of what this will do to open sea tagging, ship composition and the ability to play as a group.

[Prater]

 

The beauty of fast ships is we can try to fight and then break off at any time if it's not working.

 

Against incompetent enemies.  Competent enemies won't give you the bonus of your fir ships.  And who said anything about all live oak?  Where did that come from?

 

 

But what happens when WE outnumber YOU by 5x BR? We hit you as a blob.

 

First, you are now forced to sail as a blob, which you guys have been crying about, so can you actually sail as a blob?  That is the question. 

 

About BR difference, it all depends on the circumstances of the fight.

 

Also, speed is not king.  Circumstance is king.  Everything depends upon circumstance and situation.  Otherwise, fir Renomees or Fir Lynxes would be king and that isn't the case at all.

 

Try the patch out already.

[fox2run]

Anti-ganking mechanics are bad.  It should all be player decided; each player has a ship with guns and sails at their own risk.

 

I would hate to be part of a group that cannot all get into a fight because of this nonsense. 

 

Why are the devs caving to what is a minority of literally the losers?  For every player crying about ganks, there are at least two happy players sailing their new boat.  Now the devs are punishing people that organize and sail together.  PvP welfare handouts...

 

One of the main attractions of this game was the hard-core unrestricted pvp.  It should be advertised as such, in fact, bragged about.  No crying on the open sea.

 

There is already a perfect anti-gank mechanic in the game.  PvE server.  Go there.

 

As pointed out before, this kind of mechanic resulted in POTBS population loss.  It started the game downhill.

Hear, hear!

[Vllad]

Fir ships winning a roughly equal fight and competent opponents?  Unlikely.

 

Yesterday I would have agreed with you. Today I do not.

 

The new gankers will sail around in all the same ship to increase the chance of getting inside the original tag. It will most likely be the lowest BR fast ship they can find. Let's just say instead of seeing 2 Frigates, 3 Belle Poole's and 2 Tricom's that same gank group will now be all in 7 Snows instead.

 

What this does is bring maximum gun power to low BR value ratio.

 

 

Not to repeat what Slamz said but this is what it does.

 

Now that the attackers are all in the same type/build ship their chances of bringing all cannons to the fight increase. Now the plan will be to separate a group of defenders so that the Defenders can't reinforce the fight with any kind of BR.

 

So those 7 Snows now have 280 BR vs let's say they attack a Trinc which I believe is 200. That only leaves 220 BR that can now show up to defend. That will break down to either one more Trinc, or something like a Frigate and Cutter.

 

7 Fir Snows with compentant captains vs a Trinc and a Frigate made of anything other than Fir will get separated while in battle, Snows have multiple good angles and even if you beat on one 77 guns working on sails will make chasing or finishing almost impossible.

 

You can bring all the Live Oak and Teak you want but that won't help you when your mast are down. Once someone comes up with the right formula fast low BR ships will rule the sea's.

 

Everyone sailing around in fast Trincs won't work since their BR is too high. That allows for the possibility of a couple of 3rd's to drop in your lap.

 

Eventually someone will find the right combo of low BR maximum guns so large groups just roam in those and can maximize the BR rule so they are never in any real danger.

The BR ruled has screwed the gankee far more than the gankers. It is only a matter of time before people find that out.

 

All the development on special woods and different ships just became irrelevant because everyone's sails are all made of the same material. It is about total cannon's now not defense, AC or hit points.

 

Eventually people will find the only way to combat this is to sail in exactly the same kind of ship you are being attacked with. People will have no choice since that will be the only way to neutralize the BR advantage gankers will get plus be able to catch them and send them home.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Vllad

[Prater]

That was already possible previously.  Just few people did it, because everyone wants to sail the largest ship possible.  Except, most of us dont sail fir ships.  Especially now that leaks are such a problem and fir as a penalty against leaks.

[Vllad]

That was already possible previously.  Just few people did it, because everyone wants to sail the largest ship possible.  Except, most of us dont sail fir ships.  Especially now that leaks are such a problem and fir as a penalty against leaks.

 

 

 

Agreed, It was possible but their was no reason to do it and quite frankly it was a little silly.

 

Personally I loved working with different combo's of not only ships but wood types vs. different opposition. I loved trying to find those lethal combo's. That was an option yesterday especially with Live Oak because people could reinforce and you never new what you were going to fight. My ability to fight 5 ships solo and get some sinks was an option with Live Oak. Your argument about Fir was spot on yesterday. It was dangerous bringing that soft stick to a PVP fight.

 

Today it is to your advantage to do nothing but Fir.

 

Being the players we are, the min maxers will do whatever they can to take advantage of the mechanics given to them.

 

Today with the new BR rule it is all about brining the most cannon's with the least amount of BR in the faster ship possible. That is the safest way to fight with the game today.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Vllad

[Bach]

So you are willing to go on record and say that a 10v1 battle is preferable to a 1v1 or 2v1?

I suppose that verifies admin's statement, that the upset people are just defending ganks. Gankers want to gank. The more the merrier.

Sure. I think you are only looking at the situation from the ganker or the gankee positions. That's a bit of an isolated view considering the game as a whole. I'm the guy that wants to get into that battle to rescue the guy being ganked. In a 10v1 I look at this as the potential of getting a dozen guys in to help the 1. A 1v1 in at 1.5 BR restricted system simply means I don't get to jump in to the fight at all. So yes, a 10v1 offers more pvp potential.

Have you figured out yet that your not arguing with gankers but with players that prey on the Gankers? Why is this an issue for us? Because if you remove the ability to join existing fights or even those just created then you completely destroy the game for rescue type players. What is the point of playing as a British pirate hunter team, bounty hunter team or zone patrol squadron if you can't actually get into fight you come across?

Just put in mechanics that help us get too the gankers and we'll solve this problem for you and enjoy the heck out if it. But limiting battles is just removing parts of the game for us.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Bach

[Balsafer]

Tacklers are still useful there are enemies that also sail slower ships tackler can go after slower ship tag it tackler ally joins br ends up being 2x more for in favor of attacker defender allies can join.   

 

 

The issue with ganking is people way over do it 10 v 1? come on that is just being a asshat

[Bach]

Tacklers are still useful there are enemies that also sail slower ships tackler can go after slower ship tag it tackler ally joins br ends up being 2x more for in favor of attacker defender allies can join.

The issue with ganking is people way over do it 10 v 1? come on that is just being a asshat

I've been the 1 in a few 10v1s. It certainly isn't as much fun when I don't get away. But that said, I understand why 10 players would rather jump into the fight than split up their group. It's not like it's 10 guys just drooling to get a cannon ball into the side of a ship. It's mostly just because they happen to be sailing as a 10 man group befor I came along sailing solo. I don't think it's fair to assume these guys always have some kind of evil intent or planned to be asshats when all 10 of them jump in. It's just part of how the game was coded and it's easier to keep a group together if they just all jump in on me.

Yes, I've been ganked. It happens and then I call up the boys and we go get some pay back. That's pvp. I don't need the computer to protect me and prevent 8 out of 10 guys jumping in to gank me. Especially if that rule change is going to prevent me from jumping into their next gank and turning the tables on them.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Bach

[CptEdwardKenway]

The new patch is set to restrict Open World encounters to a 1.5-1 BR ratio for any ship not in the original tag circle.

This is a very POTBS destroying concept. More pvp players quit that game over forced "anti- gank" programming that I knew in 6 years playing than any other feature.

It's got nothing to do with people "wanting" to gank other people. In the end it simply comes down to play time. Example: A group of 6 players sails for half an hour to get to an open world patrol site. Along comes a single target after 15 min on station. The target starts running and gets tagged by a tackler. The slower bigger ships are outside the tag ring. The computer program now enforces the 1.5 BR rule and denies the three remaining group members from getting into the action. So now those three players have to sit there on the OS most likely doing nothing for what in NA can be an hour long battle. So now they invested almost two hours into the game and get no action.

This is what was happening in POTBS. Players would form up and sail the sand box only to have the computer split them up or deny them from actions based on trying to make all battles fair. In the end, players will look at this situation as a huge waste of their time. It's not there fault that in a sand box only one target comes along. They can't plan on that or control it but the computer moderated "anti-gank" function will still punish you for it.

The ironic part, nine times out of ten the lone player is still going to get sunk by the 1.5 BR anyway. He is just going to be slightly happier he got sunk by less guys. Meanwhile you got x3 players forced into doing nothing for an hour by the computer that are only going to put up with that a finite number of times.

Getting ganked may suck. But it's still better than being forced to sit on the ocean doing nothing for an hour. Remove the anti-gank computer moderations. It's just going to backfire on NA. It's simply a game that takes longer to travel to patrol points and has even longer battles to wait on than POTBS.

The hardest thing you may ever have to do as Devs is turn a deaf ear to gank complainers. But it is simply the better move.

 

Funny. Acutally I was thinking about to quitt this game BECAUSE of all the hardcore ganking every day. And several others too. Nobody tells you to just sit around and do nothing. Form a fleet and meet other fleets. You would find enough players for that. That's pvp. Jumping with 5,6 or even more ships on 1 is not pvp. It's not even ganking. It's just trolling. Seriously. And if some players quitt because they can't troll anymore. Fine I will show them the door.

Edited April 13, 2016 by CptEdwardKenway

[Dekillos]

Funny. Acutally I was thinking about to quitt this game BECAUSE of all the hardcore ganking every day. And several others too. Nobody tells you to just sit around and do nothing. Form a fleet and meet other fleets. You would find enough players for that. That's pvp. Jumping with 5,6 or even more ships on 1 is not pvp. It's not even ganking. It's just trolling. Seriously. And if some players quitt because they can't troll anymore. Fine I will show them the door.

 I played 200 hours and never be ganked if i not want it. What i do wrong? May be i not sail in afk? maybe I looked around?

[Neptune]

 I played 200 hours and never be ganked if i not want it. What i do wrong? May be i not sail in afk? maybe I looked around?

 

For the 6493634684524 time, it's not about avoiding ganks. That is the easiest thing to do on NA.

 

The problem was finding fights that wasn't lopsided for one side every battle. BR system is a welcome addition, so far it's great.

[Bach]

Initial testing shows this system can be exploited by gankers. The BR balance isn't consistent. The BR limit is only for adding ships to a battle. So a group good at math and timing can game this system to create ganks that can't be challenged. How many players are math majors?

For example: (using the hidden port gank everyone agreed was the worst)

A Tricom sitting outside the port can get attacked by another Tricom and a Cerb. (200 vs. 300 BR)But no other team mates can get in. Meanwhile a Victory and Renomee are sitting invisible at the port could still exit and join the battle. Providing the 2min timer was still in play and the Reno joins just before the Vic. If the gankees friends are to far away or don't realize what is happening the battle becomes locked at a Tricom, Renomee, Victory vs a Tricom, Cerb. And that's 1210 BR vs 300BR or 4-1 odds. So the system is going to need some tweaking. Someone else should explore thus but I'm pretty sure it doesn't actually pin the battle down to 1-1.5 BR. Just the entry access.

Honestly, no matter what you do in computer enforced rules the gankers will find a way until you start figuring out ways to let MORE players counter them.

[CptEdwardKenway]

 I played 200 hours and never be ganked if i not want it. What i do wrong? May be i not sail in afk? maybe I looked around?

 

Maybe you play the right nation? What are you? Pirate? Ever leave capital?

[Nalyd]

One thing that could lighten some of the issues of this new BR system would be to allow players to join the fight after it started during the "preparation phase" (which is around 30s I believe) where nobody can move. After the preparation phase, the BR would then be locked.

At least you wouldn't be forced to pack a fleet of players within the same pixel but it would still forces you to stay somewhat close from each other to engage a fight.

That would also reduce the fleet splitting issue where a small fleet of players engage one SoL of your group that was left a little bit behind with impunity.

[thp]

I cannot speak for other people but only can tell about my personal experience, I ve been ganked many times in game, what I ve learned from it ? I ve just learned to fight better , try not to sail alone,  organized team and hunt the ganking people... I think trying to fix the ganking system by mechanism in pvp game  can sometime make it even worse, I actually never seen one game that really succeed it

[CaptVonGunn]

don't see the issue.. You can still gank 6v1 you just have to have ALL your guys inside the attack circle first. Just no late joiners to up the ganks one sidedness anymore

[Babble]

Maybe you play the right nation? What are you? Pirate? Ever leave capital?

I am U.S.    i spend 90% in la tortuge sailing around solo.

 

I have been successfully ganked 3 times.

 

I dont sail fail fit, fir, copper, speed fitting, renns.

 

 

Avoiding ganks is super easy.

[Slamz]

After playing with it tonight, it feels very unnatural and gamey.

 

I'm looking at incoming enemies deciding how I can best angle myself to split them so that they can't all get in. And then we sit and do math to decide how we can add the most people into the fight. "Okay send in the Snow and the Surprise first and that will leave just enough ratio for the Belona to enter."

 

 

Nobody told me naval battles were going to involve this much math!

[Quineloe]

 

Lets ask toyota's 5 why's

 

• Why they are sitting outside of the fight?
• Because they were away from the pulling zone
• Why they were away from the pulling zone?
• Because they were sailing away from the main group
• Why they were not keeping station sailing away from the main group?
• Because they were slower
• Why the avant guard got ahead of themselves knowing the group could be split up?

 

 

 

Let's not forget the best reason for not being pulled into battle: Different invulnerability timers after leaving the previous battle, some get 60, some get 120 seconds.

[Captain]

What they need to do is completely overhaul the results/battle ended mechanics, that's the real poison for pvp. 

[mikawa]

 

A group of 6 players sails for half an hour to get to an open world patrol site. Along comes a single target after 15 min on station. The target starts running and gets tagged by a tackler. The slower bigger ships are outside the tag ring. The computer program now enforces the 1.5 BR rule and denies the three remaining group members from getting into the action. So now those three players have to sit there on the OS most likely doing nothing for what in NA can be an hour long battle. So now they invested almost two hours into the game and get no action.

 

You are wrong.

From my viewpoint you get no fun or action either when joining a completely unfair BR battle.

What's likely to happen?

The inferior ship will run away, so the probably bigger ships have no chance to catch up and get therefore get no action, whether they are in battle or not. They should simply do some more patroling along the coast and search any suitable target for them - I think this is not hard at all ...

[fox2run]

From how I understand the wording.

 

 

Everyone in the battle circle joins the battle no matter what the BR difference is.  You can reinforce a battle if the BR is under 1.5.  If the BR is 10 to 1 or 5 to 1, you can't reinforce.   Why should you be able to reinforce?  Why would you even want to?  If it is 3 to 1, or even 2 to 1 you can't reinforce.  If the extra BR players want to be in the battle, they have to sail with the person who was attacked or who attacked and be in the original attack circle.

Dear admins: this is not a bad idea at all... small skirmishes can develop into large furballs... with the chance for traders etc to get away... 

[Sir Robert Calder]

From how I understand the wording.

 

 

Everyone in the battle circle joins the battle no matter what the BR difference is.  You can reinforce a battle if the BR is under 1.5.  If the BR is 10 to 1 or 5 to 1, you can't reinforce.   Why should you be able to reinforce?  Why would you even want to?  If it is 3 to 1, or even 2 to 1 you can't reinforce.  If the extra BR players want to be in the battle, they have to sail with the person who was attacked or who attacked and be in the original attack circle.

 

A good Englishman gets jumped by 10 ships outside of KPR because they blobbed in a circle and I can't assist him because the BR difference is too skewed?

 

Rubbish. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, Mr. Prater, but I'll be damned if a BR system says I can't help my comrade-in-arms. Frankly, I preferred the previous system which completely excluded this BR difference garbage because if anything this has helped gankers even more!