Remove 1.5BR anti-gank programming

[Hethwill]

Again, the main problem the system solved was the battle screen ambushes. Obviously different scenarios evolved.

 

That problem is now behind us. No more reports and tribunals of carnivore gankers materializing out of thin air and jumping the poor herbivore coming back from grazing some AI.

 

Now you must get into the circle aka. be seen or resort to flotillas of small ships which is a battle relying on a wide skill gap, but that no mechanic can help.

 

Regarding your nation buddies helping out nothing changed. They still have the 2 minute timer to join and help.

[akd]

You can still rescue people being ganked.  The system allows the ganked players to be reinforced.  What part of that isn't clear?  You can reinforce players being ganked.  You can't reinforce ganked players once the BR is over 1.5BR in favor of the ganked player.  Players reinforcing ganked players by more BR are by definition gankers.  If 10 players jump 1 ship, you don't need 20 players to jump those 10 players.  It becomes a reverse gank in that case.  Ganking doesn't need to be solved by more ganking.

 

People are right on this to a degree in one regard: because of counter-tagging and escape mechanics, it does take overwhelming force (counter-ganking) to end to the deprivations of a high-speed gank group (arguably, they are completely unstoppable if they really commit to only ganking and avoiding / running from any fair fight, especially if they are pirates).

[Bach]

Again, the main problem the system solved was the battle screen ambushes. Obviously different scenarios evolved.

That problem is now behind us. No more reports and tribunals of carnivore gankers materializing and jumping the poor herbivore coming back from grazing some AI.

Now you must get into the circle aka. be seen or resort to flotillas of small ships.

Regarding your nation buddies helping out nothing changed. They still have the 2 minute timer to join and help.

We have a taker! So....

Situation #3- (I'm going to exaggerate the a bit and use a victory just to drive the point home)

Imagine a gank squad of x3 Snows, x2 fir fail fit Tricoms a Victory working the Jamaican new player area.

Getting on station our gankers grab an NPC fleet or just each other if they are pirates. At the end of the battle they all sit on the exit screen except one Tricom. He sits outside in the British travel route sails down pretending to be disconnected. Along comes a mission running frigate that sees him and tells two Brit Tricoms within 2min patrolling the area. They all move to jump the bait ship. Seeing these as the only ships in battle range the bait captain tells his ganker buddies to exit the battle screen as the Brits pop the battle bubble. The tag goes down just as the gankers invisibility wears off. It's x1 Gank Tricom (200BR) vs x2 Tricoms and X1 Frig (580BR).

The invul wears off before 2min. The gankers can stack 790 BR before the battle locks. So they tell the x3 snows to enter. Then they tell the other gank Tricom. Now they have 550BR and for them the battle is still open. So the computer still lets th Victory into the fight. Now it's 1450BR gankers vs. 580BR Brits. Almost a 3-1 gank. With the snows and Tricoms nothing escapes and the gankers clean house. The Brits going crazy put the call out that the gankers have a Victory. The Brits send X6 3rd rates to the area. The gankers sit on the exit screen except for the snows that go out to scout and spy all the Brit. The victory and gank Tricoms just stay on the battle screen as long as it take till the snows tell them it's safe to set the gank up again.

If a 3rd rate separates itself any at all from the others the gankers move to split. One snow moves to tag the split while the other moves to the main group. The tell their buddies to exit and the all move to the split. The BR still counts out of the exit screen so the snows actually tag both groups. So now they got X1 snow vs x1 3rd and x1 snow vs. x5 3rds. The split is 500 BR so will allow 750BR before closing. So the gankers move in the remaining snow and both Tricoms (500BR). The battle will still let the Victory in. The other battle waits for the battle timer and all ships immediately escape. But now they are on invul timer. By the time it ends they cant get into the other battle. So x5 Brit 3rd are left on the open sea and X1 snow that is laughing at them. The gankers win again, even with a hidden Victory twice, rescue is not possible as the gankers control the BR and so the fights AND most importantly the new rule is still crap.

Yes, 20 years of bounty and bad guy hunting in mmo has made me a pretty devious player. But imagine how that could be used to your benefit if you were coming up we ways to let me fight the gankers instead of ways they can keep me out of their battles.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Bach

[CaptVonGunn]

What they need to do is completely overhaul the results/battle ended mechanics, that's the real poison for pvp. 

 

 True.. with the land being added maybe the popout of battle can now be based on real location instead of grouped around original entry point

[Slamz]

I like this guy's idea better, btw:

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13167-short-announcement-on-the-15x-br-reinforcement-limit/?p=240570

 

Basically an inner tag area (same size as now) and an outer reinforcement area (maybe 3x the radius of the tag area).

 

Anyone in the tag area is in the fight.

 

Anyone in the reinforcement area has the option to join the fight. If they decline, they can never join the fight. If they accept then they get in, in their relative position.

 

Anyone who was invulnerable or outside these rings cannot join the fight.

 

Port jumpers: fixed.

Battle screen jumpers: fixed.

Gaming the 1.5 BR rule: gone.

Allows groups to stick together unless VERY careless: yes.

 

Seems like a superior idea to me.

[CaptVonGunn]

A good Englishman gets jumped by 10 ships outside of KPR because they blobbed in a circle and I can't assist him because the BR difference is too skewed?

 

Rubbish. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, Mr. Prater, but I'll be damned if a BR system says I can't help my comrade-in-arms. Frankly, I preferred the previous system which completely excluded this BR difference garbage because if anything this has helped gankers even more!

What?> if a single friend gets jumped by 10 ships you can join until your side as mad the BR 1.5 in your favor....   within the timers limits

[Bach]

What?> if a single friend gets jumped by 10 ships you can join until your side as mad the BR 1.5 in your favor.... within the timers limits

I think the point is that the gankers would never be dumb enough to jump one ship with 10 if they were looking at a huge British rescue fleet within a 2 min sail. They would just send in what they needed to get the gank, gaming the BR rule and the others would continue looking for more splits.

For this 1.5BR rule to do anything but help the gank squad they would have to be the dumbest gankers a game has ever seen. This rule stops rescues. Not ganks.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Bach

[CaptVonGunn]

I think the point is that the gankers would never be dumb enough to jump one ship with 10 if they were looking at a huge British rescue fleet within a 2 min sail. They would just send in what they needed to get the gank, gaming the BR rule and the others would continue looking for more splits.

For this 1.5BR rule to do anything but help the gank squad they would have to be the dumbest gankers a game has ever seen. This rule stops rescues. Not ganks.

how does it stop rescue? If your friends can get there in time and your outnumbered then can come help... If it is a near fair fight and your any good you shouldn't need rescuing the 2 minute timer does that a LOT more then the 1.5BR rule...

[Vllad]

Again, the main problem the system solved was the battle screen ambushes. Obviously different scenarios evolved.

 

 

Regarding your nation buddies helping out nothing changed. They still have the 2 minute timer to join and help.

 

1. This didn't address battle screen ambushes. You can still jump out and get in a fight just like you could before as long as the BR requirement allows it.

Granted you will see less of them now because now the players can manipulate the BR of a fight (see number 2 below) but if the players don't manipulate the BR battle screen ambushes are still available to all that wish to do so.

 

2. The BR can be manipulated so that if you didn't get tagged in the original combat it doesn't matter how close to the fight you are, you will not get to enter to combat to help. This is what we keep trying to tell people. The gankers will decide whether you can help or not. You have no say so in helping your friends unless the attackers are complete idiots.

 

Read the examples above.

[Vllad]

how does it stop rescue? If your friends can get there in time and your outnumbered then can come help... If it is a near fair fight and your any good you shouldn't need rescuing the 2 minute timer does that a LOT more then the 1.5BR rule...

 

 

Because now the tacklers will be very fast small BR ships while the rest of the gank squad sit outside the battle waiting for the timer to go down. You can't defend someone who starts the fight with a 1.5 BR advantage right off the start regardless of the 800 BR sitting outside of the fight waiting to join.

 

i.e., I tackled VonnGunn in his Tricom with a Niagra, You are already 3 times bigger than me. I will just run circles around you while calling out battle times in voice coms. No one can enter the battle on your side. What VonnGunn doesn't know is their a ton more BR just waiting to join the fight outside.  

Whoever comes to help either gets tackled or has to wait until enough enemy joins to bring the BR back down before your help can join the fight.

 

When the timer gets down to 1 the entire gank squad all joins at 1 second leaving the defenders sucking wind or we send in ships one at a time to manage the BR since we can count the BR that has showed up to help this guy.

 

The end result is still the same VonnGunn is getting ganked or the guys outside coming to help you are getting ganked. Only now the players can control it instead of it being a free for all.

 

Everyone must have played this game when reinforcements were in the game. Do you remember the days of sitting outside waiting for the defender to hit the reinforce button before jumping in? This works the same way.

[Thonar]

Haven't read the whole topic but would like to state my opinion:

I actually think the 1,5 BR is a good thing as it is right now. It makes the battles somewhat fair and interesting unless the enemy tagged you pretty good with his whole fleet dragging you into a battle above 1,5 BR against you, which means you made a mistake beforehand.

The problem I see is: The 2 Minute timer should go now, especially since "reinforcements" are spawning further away now and the fairness is based on the 1,5 BR.

Not many points made to support this argument, but that wasn't my intent so far^^.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Thonar

[Bach]

Haven't read the whole topic but would like to state my opinion:

I actually think the 1,5 BR is a good thing as it is right now. It makes the battles somewhat fair and interesting unless the enemy tagged you pretty good with his whole fleet dragging you into a battle above 1,5 BR against you, which means you made a mistake beforehand.

The problem I see is: The 2 Minute timer should go now, especially since "reinforcements" are spawning further away now and the fairness is based on the 1,5 BR.

Not many points made to support this argument, but that wasn't my intent so far^^.

I know it's a pain because this topic grew so fast but the majority of the posts are about how the 1.5 BR rule can be exploited by the gankers for their protection and to create split ganks.

The short version. The rule doesn't prevent straight up ganks or hidden ganks, it doesn't enforce 1.5 BR battles if the gankers know how to game it. What it does do is make it almost impossible for your friends and allies to help you if the ganker knows what he is doing. It essentially gives control of most fight situations to the gankers.

There was also some points made early in the thread that the computer shouldn't be deciding fairness as each players definitions differ.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Bach

[Bach]

how does it stop rescue? If your friends can get there in time and your outnumbered then can come help... If it is a near fair fight and your any good you shouldn't need rescuing the 2 minute timer does that a LOT more then the 1.5BR rule...

Vladd gave a pretty good answer above. Basically this rule allows the initiator of a combat the opportunity to control the BR ratios and thereby decide who can and can't get into a battle. Since the gankers are usually the initiators of the combats, assuming they can do math, they then get to decide who gets into the fights or not.

Ironically this side effect turns what was intended to be an anti-ganker rule into a pro-ganker advantage. I think many casually looking at this new rule thought it meant battles would be forced to 1 vs 1.5 ratios. That is not what it ended up doing. Using this rule, a stop watch and some simple math I could set up a situation where I could get your Trincomelee into a battle with several pirates including a Victory while 6 of your buddies in 3rd rates right next to the battle could do nothing but watch.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Bach

[Vernon Merrill]

This was a battle that we had last night. According to many posters here, this isn't even possible anymore. Please note the variety of ships involved. (And yes, the third rate was sunk... The snow got away)

Edited April 15, 2016 by Vernon Merrill

[Thonar]

I know it's a pain because this topic grew so fast but the majority of the posts are about how the 1.5 BR rule can be exploited by the gankers for their protection and to create split ganks.

The short version. The rule doesn't prevent straight up ganks or hidden ganks, it doesn't enforce 1.5 BR battles if the gankers know how to game it. What it does do is make it almost impossible for your friends and allies to help you if the ganker knows what he is doing. It essentially gives control of most fight situations to the gankers.

There was also some points made early in the thread that the computer shouldn't be deciding fairness as each players definitions differ.

Except the ganking problem isn't based in the BR 1,5+ mechanic but on the 2 minute mark.

Delete the 2 Minute mark and ganking will be obsolete while battles will remain fair with the 1,5 BR.

[CaptVonGunn]

Because now the tacklers will be very fast small BR ships while the rest of the gank squad sit outside the battle waiting for the timer to go down. You can't defend someone who starts the fight with a 1.5 BR advantage right off the start regardless of the 800 BR sitting outside of the fight waiting to join.

 

i.e., I tackled VonnGunn in his Tricom with a Niagra, You are already 3 times bigger than me. I will just run circles around you while calling out battle times in voice coms. No one can enter the battle on your side. What VonnGunn doesn't know is their a ton more BR just waiting to join the fight outside.  

Whoever comes to help either gets tackled or has to wait until enough enemy joins to bring the BR back down before your help can join the fight.

 

When the timer gets down to 1 the entire gank squad all joins at 1 second leaving the defenders sucking wind or we send in ships one at a time to manage the BR since we can count the BR that has showed up to help this guy.

 

The end result is still the same VonnGunn is getting ganked or the guys outside coming to help you are getting ganked. Only now the players can control it instead of it being a free for all.

 

Everyone must have played this game when reinforcements were in the game. Do you remember the days of sitting outside waiting for the defender to hit the reinforce button before jumping in? This works the same way.

 Then you tackle that group outside in a 2nd battle

[snackbar]

Again, the main problem the system solved was the battle screen ambushes. Obviously different scenarios evolved.

 

That problem is now behind us. No more reports and tribunals of carnivore gankers materializing out of thin air and jumping the poor herbivore coming back from grazing some AI.

 

Now you must get into the circle aka. be seen or resort to flotillas of small ships which is a battle relying on a wide skill gap, but that no mechanic can help.

 

Regarding your nation buddies helping out nothing changed. They still have the 2 minute timer to join and help.

It doesn't solve the battle screen ambush. 

Edited April 15, 2016 by snackbar

[Michael JD]

First off let me say that waiting at a battle screen tactic is WRONG and needs to be removed.

 

However, any limitation to ganking in an Open world PVP server is just wrong.  However, the 1.5 battle rating discourages any kind of strategy when "baiting" out an enemy force.  You are practically saying, "hey I know you worked hard recruiting 40+ members and I know that baiting an enemy squadron out takes both patience and finesse. However, the enemy fleet that attempted to gank your member requires a fair fight and must be able to see what you bring to the field so they can decide not to take the fight and run back to port.  Therefore you can only bring a portion of your force."

 

Please don't ruin this game by catering to the carebears who whine just because they got sunk. If they don't want to fight, pick either a safe spot on the map or go to the PVE server.  Heck, form a defense fleet and chase us out of the area. But please get rid of this ridiculous 1.5 rating.  

 

We fight the Spanish, frequently down in Victoria.  We have been highly successful at baiting the Spanish out of port using a Le Gros Ventre.  The same people who were going to gank the Le Gros Ventre then complained when we dog piled out of port and jumped into the battle just seconds after the tag finished.  Why should we be punished for defending one of our players by counter ganking. 

[iR_Willow]

michael you stole the words out of my mouth with the first paragraph.

 

anti-gank is anti-strategy imo.

 

Oh what because you got jumped by a larger force you expect a fair fight? lol no

 

naval history is filled with unbalanced matches. This game is not a game, it is a sandbox. Anything is possible. If you want to continue anti-ganking it, than make it the new age of sail matchmaker like wows.

 

I've been on both sides of the fight. Either run if my charge is useless or charge in hoping to cause a distraction. My clan outnumbered others before and we took no shame in jumping them. We fought equal battles if they appeared.

 

Come on it's not like blockades did not actually happan.

Edited April 15, 2016 by iR_Willow

[Sir Robert Calder]

What?> if a single friend gets jumped by 10 ships you can join until your side as mad the BR 1.5 in your favor....   within the timers limits

 

I hadn't experienced the BR mechanics myself in-game yet and Prater's post I quoted seemingly implied to me that once a BR difference occurs the battle locks. I stand corrected.

 

I still am not entirely satisfied with this new system however. I feel like PvP near Capitals should have dire consequences for attackers who aren't rocking around in a nearly unassailable armada. What we have now is an awkward attempt at making things fair, but really just equates to players mathematically ganking targets to be in their favor. Perhaps I'm someone who lies in the diehard PvP logic camp, that by participating on an open world PvP server you join with the assumption that ganks could and will happen fairly often and that no game mechanic is going to hold your hand in dangerous zones. Players who sail alone near an enemy capital will be swarmed by overwhelming numbers and the battle imbalanced, but rightfully so one would think! It forces players to realize that areas of the map will vary in degrees of danger, and that is part of the beauty of an open world PvP server.

 

Now we have a system that basically allows ganks, but tells gankers they need to do their math homework to figure out the best way to get a 4v1 against a 3rd rate. It's confusing, not conducive for large port battle actions, and ultimately I felt the problem lied more in the fact that there is a 2:00 minute battle join timer which is practically nothing for defenders who want to aid those who are ganked. PLAYERS SHOULD BE THE ANTI-GANK MECHANIC.

 

Battle join timers should be dynamically based on BR difference instead, with no restriction on entry aside from the 25 player limit on each side. If someone is ganked by relatively even BR, the join timer should be fairly minimal (even going down to 1:00) to encourage those who PvP in small groups where the person being ganked has a chance albeit small. If the battle becomes more stacked against a particular side however, allow more time for anyone to enter and hopefully balance the match out. If the person being ganked is in a terrible area where even 3-5 minutes isn't enough for anyone to come to his aid, then that is the fate he suffers for making poor decisions.

 

The static 2:00 limit to me is too binary at the moment and clearly the BR mathematic mechanic isn't popular.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Sir Robert Calder

[Lennyo]

FWIW, I hate gankers and see it as lame. I never saw the fun in getting 10 friends and jumping a ship. However, I feel the 1.5 BR is not effective in solving this. Today, about 10 pirates were ganking ships between Port Royal and Port Morant. They were still able to fight each other to hide in battle screen. If they hit a ship near the  middle of the two towns, players in port were unable to help. In one of them, the 1.5 BR limit made it impossible for chase ships to join because some heavies that were closer joined first. So while the Brits outgunned the pirates, the pirates just ran. 

 

I appreciate the attempts to reduce ganking, but I feel this one doesn't work. I think a better way is for battle markers to never disappear until all ships have left battle. That way when I see a pirates vs pirates marker, I'll be sure to avoid that area. Or at least know their battle ratings.

 

Ps. I never really saw the fun in this, Renommee was the only ship on the horizon when it tagged us. Older picture:

 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/280722393127506183/73D7EA33919074A7C313D51063AD6088B0B69A82/

Edited April 15, 2016 by Lennyo

[Fletch]

We have a taker! So....

Situation #3- (I'm going to exaggerate the a bit and use a victory just to drive the point home)

Imagine a gank squad of x3 Snows, x2 fir fail fit Tricoms a Victory working the Jamaican new player area.

Getting on station our gankers grab an NPC fleet or just each other if they are pirates. At the end of the battle they all sit on the exit screen except one Tricom. He sits outside in the British travel route sails down pretending to be disconnected. Along comes a mission running frigate that sees him and tells two Brit Tricoms within 2min patrolling the area. They all move to jump the bait ship. Seeing these as the only ships in battle range the bait captain tells his ganker buddies to exit the battle screen as the Brits pop the battle bubble. The tag goes down just as the gankers invisibility wears off. It's x1 Gank Tricom (200BR) vs x2 Tricoms and X1 Frig (580BR).

The invul wears off before 2min. The gankers can stack 790 BR before the battle locks. So they tell the x3 snows to enter. Then they tell the other gank Tricom. Now they have 550BR and for them the battle is still open. So the computer still lets th Victory into the fight. Now it's 1450BR gankers vs. 580BR Brits. Almost a 3-1 gank. With the snows and Tricoms nothing escapes and the gankers clean house. The Brits going crazy put the call out that the gankers have a Victory. The Brits send X6 3rd rates to the area. The gankers sit on the exit screen except for the snows that go out to scout and spy all the Brit. The victory and gank Tricoms just stay on the battle screen as long as it take till the snows tell them it's safe to set the gank up again.

If a 3rd rate separates itself any at all from the others the gankers move to split. One snow moves to tag the split while the other moves to the main group. The tell their buddies to exit and the all move to the split. The BR still counts out of the exit screen so the snows actually tag both groups. So now they got X1 snow vs x1 3rd and x1 snow vs. x5 3rds. The split is 500 BR so will allow 750BR before closing. So the gankers move in the remaining snow and both Tricoms (500BR). The battle will still let the Victory in. The other battle waits for the battle timer and all ships immediately escape. But now they are on invul timer. By the time it ends they cant get into the other battle. So x5 Brit 3rd are left on the open sea and X1 snow that is laughing at them. The gankers win again, even with a hidden Victory twice, rescue is not possible as the gankers control the BR and so the fights AND most importantly the new rule is still crap.

Yes, 20 years of bounty and bad guy hunting in mmo has made me a pretty devious player. But imagine how that could be used to your benefit if you were coming up we ways to let me fight the gankers instead of ways they can keep me out of their battles.

 

 We understand why the devs have made a change, is  the total negative effect this has had on trying to stop people ganking in your home waters thats the problem It tips the whole scales to favor the smaller faster raiding ships than the heavier tankier mission ships used by their hapless victims.

WE know people were hiding in battle and jumping out, but its a ridiculous solution that punishes the pubies and their dads army home defense fleets.  

Edited April 15, 2016 by Edward the Black

[la Touche-Treville]

Well last night we sailed down from Tumbado to Bensalem with a group of 3rd rates, Constis, Frigates & Renos and had some very enjoyable battles with the Brittish.

Lost 2, won 1 and had a great time.

 

So what's the problem with current anti-ganking machanism ? All battles were reasonably fair and I heard no one complaining.

[fox2run]

Theres a big common task for a nation to clear up gankers and protect own waters. Thats part of the game that clans and players organise this. Ive always enjoyed that aspect of the game.

 

There are some flaws regarding the pirate nation though, where they can exploit eachother to come out from a hidden battle. Maybe there is a task to recontruct the pirate nation and what a pirate is.

 

Ive tried to get in a pvp battle with the new 1.5 BR limit. It didnt work out at all. Yesterday evening a skilled group of swedish gankers couldnt be engaged proberly becourse of it. Let alone the frustrating task of splitting up force in order to hunt the gankers down. A lot of sailing and very little (almost zero) action. PvP are suffering as feared. There must be other means to get new players into the game without them feeling it be to hardcore.

 

Maybe some beginner-missions in invisible status? And after a certain rank they could be rdy for the real thing? 

 

I think a majority of players wants do have a real fight with other players without risking all of their ships. So maybe we need more xp and gold for pvp-fights? And maybe it could a good idea to change the fight-rewarding mechanism so it is still rewarding to stay in a loosing/lost battle?

 

Regards

 

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by fox2run

[Rebel Witch]

The new patch is set to restrict Open World encounters to a 1.5-1 BR ratio for any ship not in the original tag circle.

This is a very POTBS destroying concept. More pvp players quit that game over forced "anti- gank" programming that I knew in 6 years playing than any other feature.

It's got nothing to do with people "wanting" to gank other people. In the end it simply comes down to play time. Example: A group of 6 players sails for half an hour to get to an open world patrol site. Along comes a single target after 15 min on station. The target starts running and gets tagged by a tackler. The slower bigger ships are outside the tag ring. The computer program now enforces the 1.5 BR rule and denies the three remaining group members from getting into the action. So now those three players have to sit there on the OS most likely doing nothing for what in NA can be an hour long battle. So now they invested almost two hours into the game and get no action.

This is what was happening in POTBS. Players would form up and sail the sand box only to have the computer split them up or deny them from actions based on trying to make all battles fair. In the end, players will look at this situation as a huge waste of their time. It's not there fault that in a sand box only one target comes along. They can't plan on that or control it but the computer moderated "anti-gank" function will still punish you for it.

The ironic part, nine times out of ten the lone player is still going to get sunk by the 1.5 BR anyway. He is just going to be slightly happier he got sunk by less guys. Meanwhile you got x3 players forced into doing nothing for an hour by the computer that are only going to put up with that a finite number of times.

Getting ganked may suck. But it's still better than being forced to sit on the ocean doing nothing for an hour. Remove the anti-gank computer moderations. It's just going to backfire on NA. It's simply a game that takes longer to travel to patrol points and has even longer battles to wait on than POTBS.

The hardest thing you may ever have to do as Devs is turn a deaf ear to gank complainers. But it is simply the better move.

completely agree with the OP

 

please do not make this into another POTBS it will just fail and die