Remove 1.5BR anti-gank programming

[Neptune]

All I have to say is with the BR system, I've had some epic fun battles. More than I have had in the last 2 weeks. It is working nicely, less running and more players willing to fight it out because one side isn't always lopsided. It is doing what was it is intended to do, giving us more enjoyable battles.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Acadian44

[Vernon Merrill]

Has anyone posting all these hypothetical "problems" with the new mechanic actually been denied a battle yet? Because we've been doing the same thing as always in our wolf pack and it's been an issue exactly once. Once. I was just outside the tag ring. I then told them I was sailing due north for 5 mins and that we'd rally there. In the meantime, I was able to either engage a lone frigate this wasn't able to get to the battle in 2 mins or take a bathroom break. Saw that the frigate wasn't too interested, took a quick bio break and rendezvoused with the guys who made short work of it. We then continued on our merry way. It was terrible, I tell ya.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Vernon Merrill

[Bach]

All I have to say is with the BR system, I've had some epic fun battles. More than I have had in the last 2 weeks. It is working nicely, less running and more players willing to fight it out because one side isn't always lopsided. It is doing what was it is intended to do, giving us more enjoyable battles.

Playing over the last few days we didn't have this same result at all. Last night we also sailed from Tombado. Didn't see you guys at all. We found a lone Brit in an Essex and took turns sinking him in what was still essentially x3 battles he couldn't escape or win. He just ended up fighting 3 ships instead of 7. Had we all been able to fight at one time we probably would have just let him go after the first one. But it took three battles for everyone to get a chance at the do and gold. I would have preferred to have just sunk this guy one time. This wasted about an hour extra of game play.

After that the Americans were asking for us to come fight them off Habana. It took an hour to sail there. We got into two fights on the way against smaller groups of US players. The positional mechanic seems less fair than the BR mechanic as we were able to guarantee surrounding them at the start of the fight. We sailed closer and still all got into the fights which were no more fair last night than they would have been last week. By the time we got to Habana the Americans had logged and we needed to as well. Not really any great fights for a lot of time sunk into the game. The first Brit didn't need to be sunk three times, players didn't need to be held out of battles and the positional start is worse as it put players unrealistically in front of targets. But the single worst part if it all is that rather than feel I had fun I felt more like it was 4 hours of my life I'm not going to get back.

I'm glad you found some fun from Tombado to Bensalem. But you probably would have found that same fun last week.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Bach

[Bach]

Has anyone posting all these hypothetical "problems" with the new mechanic actually been denied a battle yet? Because we've been doing the same thing as always in our wolf pack and it's been an issue exactly once. Once. I was just outside the tag ring. I then told them I was sailing due north for 5 mins and that we'd rally there. In the meantime, I was able to either engage a lone frigate this wasn't able to get to the battle in 2 mins or take a bathroom break. Saw that the frigate wasn't too interested, took a quick bio break and rendezvoused with the guys who made short work of it. We then continued on our merry way. It was terrible, I tell ya.

Yesterday the system denied a ship that was inside the bubble at the time of the tag. We reported it as a bug. But we also had battles against lone runner ships that we ended up fighting three times so those locked out could pvp. The running vs our mixed pug group of ships resulted in some being out if the ring. As mentioned earlier, if we all just switched to the same boat or all lighter faster boats the problem is solved. But that is what this same rule did in POTBS. It promoted open see to be all smaller faster ships and the bigger ship designs were wasted other than port battles.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Bach

[Slamz]

I feel like the "tl;dr" for this whole thread is basically just:

This new system can be gamed. You won't like the way it gets gamed. Trust us on this.

 

 

Incidentally, one rather serious flaw in the system is this:

 

* How I thought it would work:

Cutter attacks cutter. Victory can't join because it would put the BR ratio over 1.5

* How it actually works:

Cutter attacks cutter. Ratio is not greater than 1.5 so any ship can join, including a Victory

 

We would still be able to game the system if this was fixed, but not by as much as we currently do. (And I think there are better ideas for addressing most ganks, in other threads.)

 

Everyone must have played this game when reinforcements were in the game. Do you remember the days of sitting outside waiting for the defender to hit the reinforce button before jumping in? This works the same way.

 

^ this ^

 

These anti-gank rules really just help whoever is in the best position to game the system.

[Vernon Merrill]

* How I thought it would work:

Cutter attacks cutter. Victory can't join because it would put the BR ratio over 1.5

* How it actually works:

Cutter attacks cutter. Ratio is not greater than 1.5 so any ship can join, including a Victory

 

 

Only if the Vic was in the INITIAL tag...  BR would keep him from joining after.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Henry d'Esterre Darby
Fixed it for you.

[Prater]

 

* How I thought it would work:

Cutter attacks cutter. Victory can't join because it would put the BR ratio over 1.5

* How it actually works:

Cutter attacks cutter. Ratio is not greater than 1.5 so any ship can join, including a Victory

 

Only if the Vic was in the INITIAL tag...  BR would keep him from joining after.

 

 

 

This is how we said it works, several times.  The devs just added this, and are still trying to come up with a proper way of doing this, which takes time.  In the mean time we have the same people crying over and over again for 12 pages, when it has only been introduced for 3 days.

[Vernon Merrill]

Agreed.  I should have edited that better.  The larger type was quoting a previous poster.  My reply was in the normal sized fornt.

[Slamz]

Only if the Vic was in the INITIAL tag...  BR would keep him from joining after.

 

What? No.

 

For a specific, actual example that really happened, a friendly Connie (300 BR) tagged an enemy Essex (200 BR), making the battle exactly 1.5:1.

 

I was not in the initial tag (I saw the tag but was pretty far away). I sailed over and was able to click in with my own Essex, making the BR 500:200 or 2.5:1.

 

 

So the actual way it works seems to be:

IS THE BR RATIO > 1.5?

IF YES, NO MORE SHIPS CAN COME IN

IF NO, ANY SHIP CAN COME IN (even if this takes the ratio dramatically higher than 1.5).

 

Also note that the check definitely seems to be "greater than", not "greater than or equal to". You can still add a ship if BR ratio is exactly 1.5:1.

 

So yes, it appears that if a cutter attacks a cutter, a Victory who is not part of the initial tag can still sail over and join the fight.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Slamz

[Vllad]

Has anyone posting all these hypothetical "problems" with the new mechanic actually been denied a battle yet?

 

Yes and these aren't hypothetical, they are going on as we speak.

 

Their was some US players ganking some Spanish using small ships that I couldn't help last night. I jumped in a pickle split the group and returned the favor so they couldn't support each other.

[Rebel Witch]

what they have done is a horrible idea. they need to take off the limiter, none of this 1.5 or 2.0 stuff.

 

several pirates began ganking brits the other night off port morant, brits responded by sending a big fleet of ships. we caught the pirates but then only a certain amount of our brit fleet could get in, many of us waited 20 minutes for that fight then could not even engage. so the ganking crews can go anywhere they like including outside nation capitals and just gank away knowing if they are good and the defenders that manage to get in are not the best ships against them well they can just keep ganking. all this while people are forced to wait outside.

 

the more they make this game like potbs the more unattractive it is. i like how this game is when it was unrestricted, if 5 pirates want to come in brit territory or vice versa, 20 defenders should have the right to engage them.

[Quarios]

what they have done is a horrible idea. they need to take off the limiter, none of this 1.5 or 2.0 stuff.

 

several pirates began ganking brits the other night off port morant, brits responded by sending a big fleet of ships. we caught the pirates but then only a certain amount of our brit fleet could get in, many of us waited 20 minutes for that fight then could not even engage. so the ganking crews can go anywhere they like including outside nation capitals and just gank away knowing if they are good and the defenders that manage to get in are not the best ships against them well they can just keep ganking. all this while people are forced to wait outside.

 

the more they make this game like potbs the more unattractive it is. i like how this game is when it was unrestricted, if 5 pirates want to come in brit territory or vice versa, 20 defenders should have the right to engage them.

 

Thats exactly what I predicted a few days ago.  Just look at Eve they allow free uncomplicated unrestricted PvP and it worked for 10 years and will for more. Don't listen to the crying carebears.

[snackbar]

what they have done is a horrible idea. they need to take off the limiter, none of this 1.5 or 2.0 stuff.

 

several pirates began ganking brits the other night off port morant, brits responded by sending a big fleet of ships. we caught the pirates but then only a certain amount of our brit fleet could get in, many of us waited 20 minutes for that fight then could not even engage. so the ganking crews can go anywhere they like including outside nation capitals and just gank away knowing if they are good and the defenders that manage to get in are not the best ships against them well they can just keep ganking. all this while people are forced to wait outside.

 

the more they make this game like potbs the more unattractive it is. i like how this game is when it was unrestricted, if 5 pirates want to come in brit territory or vice versa, 20 defenders should have the right to engage them.

Pretty sure that was us. We went there to stir you guys up and we were ready and willing to sink. We wanted a fight, didn't care how "fair" it was. We expected to get a huge response that would ultimately sink some of us, however, the mechanic allowed us to roam around picking people off and win every fight without allowing people to rescue each other. You had a huge fleet waiting outside after 1 battle and we got pulled and most of you couldn't join. 

TLDR: This mechanic is bad and actually helps people who want to gank since it inhibits rescuing and counter-ganking to drive people from an area. 

[Ser_Slack]

Get rid of the BR restrictive nonsense. This game is already a huge time sink without waiting around a battle you can't get into.

[Cpt.Birdy]

Get rid of this stupied BR shit. Is no fun we travel to gather in a group of 12 and we get split up in 500 fights......

[Cragger]

Thats exactly what I predicted a few days ago.  Just look at Eve they allow free uncomplicated unrestricted PvP and it worked for 10 years and will for more. Don't listen to the crying carebears.

 

Unrestricted you say.

 

You know other then relatively safe empire space were attacking players you were not at a declared war with their empire with would you get you insta squashed by the npc responders.

Other then the gates and their focal points and cloaking fields. Other then having the ability to see everyone in local at any time and if they were affiliated with your alliance. "If it ain't blue it's goo, if it's red it's dead." became a saying for a reason.

 

Yeah.. really unrestricted restrictions. 

[Random]

Today I was cruising in my trader in friendly Spanish waters surrounded by friendly Spanish cities and somewhat spread out, but still plentiful friendly Spanish captains. I came across 4 Sverige ships (who would have thought to find them at Mantua) and before I could find out if they are friendly or not they attacked me. I couldn't escape because one of them was in front of me and I was by the coast and by the city of Mantua. While I was putting up a valiant fight and almost ended up sinking a Reno (he had to escape to avoid sinking), a whole town of Mantua was watching the fight and the large group of friendly Spanish captains circling around waiting for the fight to be over. I don't know what exactly surrendering does, but I was told it would piss my attackers off, so I surrendered after I had barely any crew left and they were ready to board me. I continued to observe the fight as there was still an AI Trinco left in it. While Reno had to escape to avoid sinking and fell into the lap of the justice posse, the rest of my assailants remained in the fight to avoid their just punishment. Pray tell, what ganking problem was solved with the 2 minute timer? How much sense does it make to insist on the efficacy of the "visibility" issue when I was in the plain sight of my friendly city and could not be joined by my compatriots? So much for anti-ganking features... How about coming up with something that prevents people from hiding from fights rather than getting into them?

 

Edit: Suppose Spanish nation wanted to discourage gankers from attacking Spanish ships in Spanish territory. Why are they now precluded from administering a beatdown on actual gankers? Because now, to catch them coming out of the fight (after waiting for them to finally come out), Spanish captains have to spread out and keep an eye on where they pop out (especially if the gankers split up after coming out of the fight). Given the fact that Spanish captains are now spread out, they won't be able to all get into the initial attack circle and won't be able to join the fight and punish the gankers. So, who is benefited by this new anti-gank mechanic?

Edited April 15, 2016 by Drunken Spelunking

[Reckiario]

This is a really difficult topic and i understand that no solution is gonna be liked by everybody. Anyway, at war, destroying one ship is a really important thing, even if its 12 against 1, its one less ship to fight in the upcoming battles. Its kinda of killing strategy in the game, as it was on the real world by the XVIII century this game is referring to. Nobody can imagine an english fleet letting pass by a single spanish ship or the other way around.

[Taki1980]

Get rid of this stupied BR shit. Is no fun we travel to gather in a group of 12 and we get split up in 500 fights......

 

Agree with it.

 

It destroys the open World Feeling. Get Rid of Battle Timer closing. Let the Match open for the Whole time. Ships once Joined cant rejoin but everyone else can join as long as the Fight is going. Maybe far aways but as long as its going its open.

 

This can help (with the new Land patch) that the Tide is Turning more than once in a Battle!

 

Please get rid of all BR Diffrence Anti Gank and CLosed battles.

[Neptune]

Just look at Eve they allow free uncomplicated unrestricted PvP and it worked for 10 years and will for more. Don't listen to the crying carebears.

 

*cough* Right, lets make this game EVE.

If you want a game like EVE you should go play EVE.

This is Naval Action, and we don't want it to be EVE.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Acadian44

[Otsego]

the 1,5 br-mechanics are pretty cool, we had very good fights since the change. Battle could stay open for a bit longer maybe 3 or 5 minutes.

[Hethwill]

the 1,5 br-mechanics are pretty cool, we had very good fights since the change. Battle could stay open for a bit longer maybe 3 or 5 minutes.

 

Yes. Interesting how several engagements result in the same area if the numbers and BR allow it due to spread of groups. Some tactics of hitting the periphery of the fleets are being developed with good results. Pretty much like a pack hitting a herd.

 

The frigate level keeps the same to be honest, no change, everyone always gets in the circle. Biggest change is now that the relative positioning which totally rocks despite the odd side effects.

 

I agree on the timer, could be extended to 4 minutes and see how it goes.

[Quarios]

Unrestricted you say.

 

You know other then relatively safe empire space were attacking players you were not at a declared war with their empire with would you get you insta squashed by the npc responders.

Other then the gates and their focal points and cloaking fields. Other then having the ability to see everyone in local at any time and if they were affiliated with your alliance. "If it ain't blue it's goo, if it's red it's dead." became a saying for a reason.

 

Yeah.. really unrestricted restrictions. 

Not really sure what your point is, even in Highsec u can kill anyone u like but have to bare the consequences. Are you really trying to argue that there is a restriction in Eve like. there is already 1 capital in system u cannot enter because BR too high?

 

 

*cough* Right, lets make this game EVE.

If you want a game like EVE you should go play EVE.

This is Naval Action, and we don't want it to be EVE.

Well thats your opinion, my opinion is the closer this gets to the basic Eve mechanics the better, if u want another failed sail game for carebears go play Potbs?

[Jerome]

This mechanic has ruined at least two fights for my group tonight, resulting in players sitting out.  Apparently, unless you get a perfect tag and everyone is in ships the same speed it is a crap shoot whether you group gets in or not.

[Vllad]

 

 

I agree on the timer, could be extended to 4 minutes and see how it goes.

 

I am not sure what difference it would make. Sailing 4 more minutes to not get in the fight isn't any different then sailing 10 seconds and not getting in the fight.