Remove 1.5BR anti-gank programming

[maturin]

 

 

The issue many of us are complaining about isn't the ability to create unfair fights.  Most of us on this side of the debate are not out looking for unfair fights.   We're out looking for whatever fight is there to be had.  If we are outnumbers 6v10 so be it.  If we outnumber you 6v2 or 6v1 so be it.  Part of the appeal of the open sea patrol is never knowing what we'll find.  Did we bring the right mix of ships and equip them in an optimal way for who we are likely to find?

So why aren't you sailing in a group? The attack circle is huge; it's not hard to fit a group inside it.

 

If the lone ships you find don't want to fight, and you can't catch them as a body, then so be it. If being split up is so horrendously terrible, then go look elsewhere. I guarantee you, the victim of the gank is just as disappointed as you are that there is no decent fight to be had.

 

All the people in this thread claim that ganking is not a problem since competent players will escape anyhow. Well, if they were going to escape anyhow, maybe the BR ratio changes will convince them to turn and fight.

[Yar987]

So why aren't you sailing in a group? The attack circle is huge; it's not hard to fit a group inside it.

 

 

 

Exactly! Especially coupled with the changes in spawn position, being in formation on the OS is much more important.

[Babble]

 

All the people in this thread claim that ganking is not a problem since competent players will escape anyhow. Well, if they were going to escape anyhow, maybe the BR ratio changes will convince them to turn and fight.

Why limit the ability to fight anymore if it is not solving the ganking "issue".

 

 

Honest question to any and all in this thread:  How many times have you been ganked and sunk in this game?  What were you doing when it happened?

[maturin]

 

 

Why limit the ability to fight anymore if it is not solving the ganking "issue".

 

Babble, you ask a rhetorical question while quoting my answer to that very question. Let's not make this any harder than it has to be.

 

 

I've actually never been successfully ganked, except during the dark times of Speed Trim making Bellonas faster than Surprises closehauled. But from my perspective solo PvP seems really inaccessible, because I have to spend all my time running from attempted ganks, rather than fighting. And once I've escaped a gank, my pursuers are usually so furious that they go and set a vast net of ships across the entire ocean, forcing me to log off in the Battle Over screen. So that's the end of my PvP for the night. 

 

But then you guys whine about having to wait outside the instance for 5 minutes. 

 

I should really find a group so I can hide behind their skirts.

[akd]

This is what happened in POTBS. We lost the rescuers as well as the gankers. The gankers adjusted to 2 man ganks and the rescuers were screwed. You couldn't jump in to help a cargo ship being attacked by two pirates. It just ends up being you vs. 2 pirates while the cargo ship runs for it. Same thing if the other guys in inexperienced, unprepared or otherwise just runs. So the rescue type players eventually just quit. The gankers adjusted to the new mechanic and used it to advantage.

Last night in pvp1 a guy called for help. Pirates were gankng and had him pinned in port. So me and team mate race to help. 30min later, yes it takes a long time to sail in this game, we get on scene just as a pirate frig tags his third rate. We jump in the battle and discover why. The third rate is running missions and is only armed with Coronades. The pirate guesses this and has long guns. The 3rd rate would have been dead meat. But our two brigs get in the fight and it's essentially two brigs vs. a pirate frig as the 3rd rate sails around uselessly in the back ground.

Why is this important? Because if that same event occurred with the new rules we would have sailed for 30min only to have the computer prevent us from getting in the battle. Then we either sail home or wait and hour fir the pirate to pick the 3rd rate apart. BR doesn't always determine a battle. A 3rd rate with Coronades may as well be zero BR. Two Snows are only 100 and they can bring down a pirate frig at 180. But regardless, sailing for a wasted hour of my life because the computer won't let me rescue a team mate. That's only going to happen a few times. There is more to this new rule than just ganking effects.

Creative story, but a Third Rate cannot carry only carronades and should not have a problem with a pirate frigate with longs.

[Babble]

 

But then you guys whine about having to wait outside the instance for 5 minutes. 

 

I should really find a group so I can hide behind their skirts.

I play solo 90% of the time so i dont know to whom you refer.

 

I have not once logged out in the after action screen.

 

Defensive tag and run from gank max twice before people realize you arent easy prey and go back to whatever they were doing.

 

I dont have any fir boats or copper/ speed fittings.

 

By your own admission you have never been ganked.  So where is the ganking problem?

 

The game already have anti-ganking mechanics.  This is an anti-grouping mechanic.

[Arsilon]

 

 

 

Or you just all attack together as a group and all join. As i understand it the new rules doesn't affect the initial attack. You just have to decide if you want to slow down to keep your heavier ships in the battle in a long chase.

 

 

Think this through to the end:

We leave port as a group of 6 people.  2x 3rd rates, 1x Niagara, 1x Renomee, 2x Snow as a possible mixed group of newer and older players.

 

We sail 45 minutes to get to enemy waters

 

We see a lone 3rd rate and we "gank" him.       Still a gank

 

We see a lone trader....choice

-  Send 1 Snow to tackle the trader and the rest of the group is left behind to wait or find something else to do.  Group is done for the evening for that snow captain as he may not be able to rejoin his teammates (1 combat 5 no combat)

-  Let the fast ships go chase him and kill him 4v1 and the 2x 3rd rates are left left behind to wait or find something else to do.    Group is done for the evening  as the 3rd rates will not be able to rejoin teammatesand still a gank (4 combat 2 no combat)

-  Let the trader go and eliminate the economic warfare opportunity -- that trader just delivered iron ore for enemy to build a ship.      No combat for those 6 people

 

We see a group of 2-3 fast ships that do not want to engage with us...choice

-  Since enemy group does not want to engage, send faster ships to engage leaving slow ships behind.  Group is done for the evening as those two 3rds will not be able to rejoin teammates.  (4 combat 2 no combat)

-  Continue to sail while they smaller group continues to trail outside of tagging range while 3 or 4 or 10 other people in smaller faster ships sail to the area before they attack us.  Would probably be a fun fight but guess what, still a gank just in the opposite side as they now have 12v6.

 

Evening patrol over.

 

The next night we decide to leave the 3rd rates behind and get in smaller ships that do not have the same issues we faced the previous night. So we go out in 6 snows.

 

We see a lone 3rd rate and we "gank" him.       Still a gank

 

We see a lone trader....

-  Go chase him and kill him 6v1.   Still a gank

 

We see a group of 2-3 fast ships that do not want to engage with us...options

-  Tag the ships as a group with still likely 2x the numbers so still a an 'unfair' fight

-  Tag the ships as a group but 1 person didn't sail well enough and didn't keep up so didn't make it in the initial tag.   They are left out to wait.  Still an unfair fight and group likely now down for the evening as the one person will not be able to rejoin his teammates.  (5 combat 1 no combat)

 

etc. etc.

 

What you see is.

-  You still have unfair fights, but now you have unfair fights and breakup of group play.  So your anti-gank mechanic didn't actually solve this 'problem' in the long run.

-  You no longer have mixed groups of players in range of ships.  You have to cater to lowest speed ship in your group or have likely scenario where your group will not be able to play together.

-  Each side facing the same issue will have to do the same which reduces what you see on the open sea as both sides optimize.  Traders or Fast ships that can dictate the terms of engagement.  You no longer have as many unfair fights.  But now you have only the opportunity for the same fight you could have gotten in a dual or small battle.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Arsilon

[OTMatt]

Call me a ganker but it seems to me like this just kills off the slower ships in the open world, everyone's going to bring along their speediest ships and try to huddle together.

The Essex was barely added into the the game now and is already useless if it can't keep up with the formation. Naturally third rates are dead to the groups too, you're definitely not going to catch any fleeing enemies in one.

Its a renommees wet dream not having to worry about counterganking while he sinks our new guys up near Charleston.

[Xander Tyrann]

snip

First I'm pro ganking. I think OW combat should be decided by preperation and cooperation.

You are forced to leave 3rd rates behind while ganking as they are not ganking ships. I like this as it makes ships have specific purposes and encourages you to use a multitude of different setups for your different purposes. Rather than only using one ship for everything. There isn't a large variety of pvp yet though.

I also encourage punishment for bad sailing.

Basically I seem to disagree with you based on a difference on opinion.

[Neptune]

Call me a ganker but it seems to me like this just kills off the slower ships in the open world, everyone's going to bring along their speediest ships and try to huddle together.

 

 

This has already been happening for months, renos and trinco gank squads running the OS.

[Balsafer]

I dont mind being out numbered but when 1 ship ends up going up against 3 frigates and 10 3rd rates is a bit much. There does need to be some limit since historically would 3rd rate captains even bother going after a frigate?

[Slamz]

But it will require more skill as they all need to be in the tag circle from start 

 

The question in my mind is "how many times have we tagged someone straight on with a single ship versus how many times have we tagged someone because we were all spread out, all looking for targets and managed to snag someone in a web".

 

Snagging people in a web will cause your group to get split.

Staying together will let you tag together but you will get fewer fights (it's easier to escape when the attack is only coming from one vector) and you must use similar ships.

 

So no more PvP fights where it's like 2 Trincs, 2 Bellonas, 1 Surprise and 1 Snow.

 

It will have to be 6 Trincs or 6 Bellonas or 6 Surprises or 6 Snows -- if you aren't in the same ship it's going to be a lot harder to stay together and you'll end up going the speed of the slowest ship at every wind angle (also, Bellonas turn like bricks on the open sea so you'd lose them in a tight turn).

 

 

So:

Ganks still occur.

There is going to be less ship diversity.

Fewer tags occur overall.

Groups risk getting split.

 

....what was the improvement, again?

 

after they do 1.5 br limiter will sound like a blessing

 

It's not going to feel like much of a blessing to the people who are sitting outside the fight.

 

Granted that could happen anyway. There's an argument that says "only people in the circle get into the battle, no late joiners at all" but part of why there's a join timer is to let groups stick together.

 

Now even if you're nearby, sometimes you get left out.

[Bach]

I have no problem at all with groups of people going round looking for pvp, that's part of the game, but do you really have to retard lower level players progression by jumping them while they do missions ?. that's what causes the new players to leave, that's what causes outrage on the forums and that's what causes knee jerk reactions by the devs to try and find a happy medium. You put the devs in this spot by basically being jackasses and retarding new players progression. If you left the new players alone, until they where actually a threat then I'm sure there would be much less complaining and you might even get a decent fight.

Back then the missions were paying out obscene amounts if gold. It wasn't new players mission running in consitutions and 3rd rates. It was so profitable, before the rule change, everyone was mission running.

Again, this was in France home waters AFTER the pirates over ran all the ports but two. The newbie pirates start half way across the map.

[admin]

 

 

 

It's not going to feel like much of a blessing to the people who are sitting outside the fight.

 

 

Lets ask toyota's 5 why's

 

• Why they are sitting outside of the fight?
• Because they were away from the pulling zone
• Why they were away from the pulling zone?
• Because they were sailing away from the main group
• Why they were not keeping station sailing away from the main group?
• Because they were slower
• Why the avant guard got ahead of themselves knowing the group could be split up?

[Bach]

Or you just all attack together as a group and all join. As i understand it the new rules doesn't affect the initial attack. You just have to decide if you want to slow down to keep your heavier ships in the battle in a long chase.

This is true IF this rule change stops at this point. In POTBS it did not. The gankers are gankers by nature. So they will find a way for all 10 players to be in that ring. The people complaining today will still be getting ganked after the gankers adjust. In POTBS this is when the devs started taking the computer forced rules even further. So logically, if the same course holds for NA, a few months from now a patch will just be enforcing the 1.5 BR no matter whose in the ring. This is what a lot if us fear it will come too.

[Prater]

From how I understand the wording.

 

 

Everyone in the battle circle joins the battle no matter what the BR difference is.  You can reinforce a battle if the BR is under 1.5.  If the BR is 10 to 1 or 5 to 1, you can't reinforce.   Why should you be able to reinforce?  Why would you even want to?  If it is 3 to 1, or even 2 to 1 you can't reinforce.  If the extra BR players want to be in the battle, they have to sail with the person who was attacked or who attacked and be in the original attack circle.

[Babble]

   Why should you be able to reinforce?  Why would you even want to?  If it is 3 to 1, or even 2 to 1 you can't reinforce.  If the extra BR players want to be in the battle, they have to sail with the person who was attacked or who attacked and be in the original attack circle.

 

You would want to join so you dont split your group.  Really its that simple.

 

If the change is not stoping ganking in anyway then why have it.

 

 

The problem with not having everyone in range is after a battle people who survived run.  They are invisible.  As a team you split up to cover all escape routes.    

 

Being invisible is unrealistic just like spreading out and catching things is.

 

Its a game.  Realism is great as long as it doesn't affect fun factor.

 

 

 

 

The change does nothing to stop ganking .  In fact its going to make ganking a whole hell of a lot easier for myself and the few other guys i occasionally sail with.    If anything it prevents people from reinforcing their allys to stop ganks.

[Bach]

This has already been happening for months, renos and trinco gank squads running the OS.

True, but when faced by a comparable number of 3rd rate Tricoms they end up running from their patrol area and a few get sunk. As fast as the Reno is it doesn't have invulnerable masts and if you get a mass if third rates into the fight the shear number if cannon balls can drop a mast before one escapes. So one by one you start killing the gankers. Since they normally gank at our home ports this then splits them up as the sunk gankers appear over half an hour away. So a mass of thirds can run off the Tricom/Reno gank squad.

But if they dance around enough on the OS and only 1.5 BR can fight them then you don't get that mass of third rates into the fight and Tricom/Reno team gets to control the fights. They can stay on station ganking until they manage to take losses. Which probably isn't going to happen until the home team rescuers manage to put together an identical Tricom/Reno rescue team. By restricting the conditions of joining battles the rule puts the control into the hands of the smaller lighter force invading home waters. Not very realistic or even sensible. If they raid your home port they should have to face an overwhelming number of rate ships.

[Hugo van Grojt]

From how I understand the wording.

 

 

Everyone in the battle circle joins the battle no matter what the BR difference is.  You can reinforce a battle if the BR is under 1.5.  If the BR is 10 to 1 or 5 to 1, you can't reinforce.   Why should you be able to reinforce?  Why would you even want to?  If it is 3 to 1, or even 2 to 1 you can't reinforce.  If the extra BR players want to be in the battle, they have to sail with the person who was attacked or who attacked and be in the original attack circle.

 

The only potential problem I see with the recent changes is that gankers will start whining (I expect A LOT) about counter-tagging to prevent the ganking group from being in the battle circle to begin with - thus turning ganks into manageable fights for the potential victim.

 

I, personally, have no problem with this as I am usually on the receiving end of pirate ganking parties. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the coming days/weeks.

 

Cheers,

 

Hugo

[Slamz]

• Why the avant guard got ahead of themselves knowing the group could be split up?

 

Most likely they were trying to actually get a fight going, which they had to do by tagging someone, which may have caused them to get ahead of the slower ships (especially if the tag required a sharp turn, which the 3rd rates couldn't match).

 

The 2 minute limit was (I assume) meant to let us start fights and get everyone in while allowing room for people to run ahead or behind and make tags, and to allow for ship diversity. That's been lost with the 1.5 BR limit.

 

 

Is it worth the tradeoff? That's going to be the big question of this patch.

[LeBoiteux]

Everyone in the battle circle joins the battle no matter what the BR difference is. 

 

Meaning Gankers have to be well-organized (clustered) to be able to gank. Even Gankers have to be skilled in NA . 

[Vernon Merrill]

Lets be honest:  This mechanic is to designed to reduce that ridiculous tactic of having a gank squad hide in a port and have a single ship go out and tag something that happens by.  Now that you are actually able to see what you are up against, people who use that tactic hate it.  I STILL think that there should be a viewable list of captains currently in port since any captain in the day would immediately know as he entered port.

[Bach]

Lets ask toyota's 5 why's

 

• Why they are sitting outside of the fight?
• Because they were away from the pulling zone
• Why they were away from the pulling zone?
• Because they were sailing away from the main group
• Why they were not keeping station sailing away from the main group?
• Because they were slower
• Why the avant guard got ahead of themselves knowing the group could be split up?

True, but this is the effect that then caused everyone to get into the exact same fast OS ships in POTBS. Diversity of ships was the price. The gankers simply responded by all sailing the same light fast ship. Why not? They aren't looking for fair fights anyway. The drawback was that defenders could no longer use overwhelming fire power like rate ships to chase the gankers away from the Capitol. The side effect of the rule is that it forced only certain ship designs to be practical on the open sea. It gives control of who can enter the fights to the ganker team allowing less options to rescue teams. It becomes less practical to attempt rescues or otherwise fight the gankers. After running thus for a few months in POTBS the OS all became light fast Vengy corvettes. Rate ships defending the home port were useless and the gankers could decide whenever they wanted to fight or run so they gained control of the seas.

Consider this, your best weapon against gankers and creating pvp at the same time is to find ways to get me and my team into the same fight with the gankers. If you put in ways for players to communicate where the gankers are and ways for us to protect and rescue our nation players. The 1.5 has a better chance of keeping rescuers out of a fight than it has of stopping a gank in the first place.

[Dekillos]

Before patch we gang trincomalee's with two-three 6th rate ships and capture. Before patch we cannt do it if trincomalee not alone, but now..... *evil laugh*

That great opportunity for small low BR gangs against big shiips

Edited April 13, 2016 by DekTo (Dekillos)

[Babble]

Lets be honest:  This mechanic is to designed to reduce that ridiculous tactic of having a gank squad hide in a port and have a single ship go out and tag something that happens by.  Now that you are actually able to see what you are up against, people who use that tactic hate it.  I STILL think that there should be a viewable list of captains currently in port since any captain in the day would immediately know as he entered port.

I think the list you propose is a far better solution.

 

Honestly though you have to assume if you are attacking a player that close to a port that someone may reinforce the battle even if it wasnt a setup.  Its just sheer convenience.