Shipbuilding Timbers Overhaul

[TheDread]

I'm saving my formal response until Redman runs the numbers too.   

But I think it's worth considering that the existing RELATIONSHIPS between woods ought to be preserved.   

People built ships with WO for the tankiness - it should stay in the same general place on the spectrum as far as speed and tankiness are concerned.   Adding new options that fill in gaps or expand the ends of that spectrum makes sense!   Spreading things on the spectrum further apart to force more interesting gameplay decisions makes sense.  But moving things from one end of the spectrum to the other just renders player's hard work garbage.   

If things that USED to be a good and tanky build are no longer as good and tanky.. . there needs to be some sort of buyback mechanic.   Give all players a week to break up crafted and note ships for 100% material and mod return so people can rebuild with the new woods?   I know that seems silly and exploitable.   So...  probably best to just keep the existing relationships in place -  

Fir>Bermuda>Teak>WO on speed and the opposite on HP...  whatever the new numbers need to be for your balance goals.

[BoomBox]

i had no problem witrh thold system also hade no problem with even older system with just live oak , oak , fir etc... i like it simple and i'm in  NA for the action (that's why i do like the dlc ships) but i do think it's cool for the crafters and i know there are a lot of ppl who like that portion of the game so thumbs up from me 👍

[Eduard L'Aquila]

Let me bounce this out there, from my interpretation of the table is that instead of adding woods around the woods already in the game to rebalance the meta-woods someone decided to nerf (or make them more realistic) the meta woods already in the game, promoting not as used woods in their place?

If this is what's happening I feel like this is like someone arbitrarily deciding that gold is too valuable so it's significantly less valuable, the new most valuable metal is copper.

[Isaac J Smith]

I have NEVER met anyone building WO/WO for the thickness (Always for the HP/Repairs). I'm sorry, but completely changing the entirety of the woods purpose on a whim is complete BS. Reducing some of the values, fine, but completely removing the reason people built certain ships already is NOT something a release product should be doing.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Isaac J Smith

[Never]

1 hour ago, Eduard L'Aquila said:

Let me bounce this out there, from my interpretation of the table is that instead of adding woods around the woods already in the game to rebalance the meta-woods someone decided to nerf (or make them more realistic) the meta woods already in the game, promoting not as used woods in their place?

If this is what's happening I feel like this is like someone arbitrarily deciding that gold is too valuable so it's significantly less valuable, the new most valuable metal is copper.

It's not really like that. It's mainly WO and WO S taking a hit, the other woods run similar to their original value. So ships already built using WO for the purpose of being tanky and having max HP no longer have that value. It's not even that WO might be good or bad but that ships built for a particular purpose no longer seem like they can fulfill that purpose. It's not only the ships but also the upgrades placed on those WO ships that no longer match the build of the ship in some cases. So basically 99% of PB ships no longer have a good build. 

@admin I thought you said that no update should take away from what players already have? You know many players have t/wo ships that are very costly in-game. Is there no way to reconsider the stats of WO to remain along the same lines of what they currently are instead of changing them to such an extreme? it's going from the highest HP bonus wood to having 0% HP bonus. 

[Vlad007]

If the function of woods changes so dramatically, then why not introduce a re planking function that costs resources and reals so you can replank old ships. Not the structure just the planking and have a timer on it so it takes 24 hours for the work to complete and can only bee done once a month. Just an idea

[Eduard L'Aquila]

38 minutes ago, Never said:

2 hours ago, Eduard L'Aquila said:

 

It's not really like that. It's mainly WO and WO S taking a hit, the other woods run similar to their original value. So ships already built using WO for the purpose of being tanky and having max HP no longer have that value. It's not even that WO might be good or bad but that ships built for a particular purpose no longer seem like they can fulfill that purpose. It's not only the ships but also the upgrades placed on those WO ships that no longer match the build of the ship in some cases. So basically 99% of PB ships no longer have a good build. 

It's odd that you say it's not like that while you repeat exactly what I had noticed. Perhaps I didn't clearly expressed myself but I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw that WO suddenly would become (semi?) obsolete.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Eduard L'Aquila

[TheDread]

From:

  
Just going to leave this here.

[Redman29]

8 hours ago, admin said:

Hello Captains

Nothing can be more important to the naval architect than a thorough knowledge of the properties of the materials with which he has to deal with. 
He can use this knowledge to his greatest advantage and thus produce a well proportioned ship of great speed or strength.

The properties of timber will be first considered:

• Bending and elasticity
  • will affect how masts hold together and splinter damage
• Hardness 
  • will affect how hard the wood affecting thickness and time to repair
• Weight and Gravity
  • will affect HP and speed/acceleration parameter and turn inertia.
• Durability
  • Will affect repair amount
• Cost
  • With much bigger quality comes bigger cost 
  • Distant woods will of course be more expensive.

The base thickness of ships will slightly change as well, as well as acceleration (base accel will be slightly lowered)
Caps for certain stats will be increased. Speed cap will slightly increase too, but light woods will be drastically softer.
 

Table

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mM1LEvwbt1tXOudiDUpTsT97wum_DvZDEs-S1YrkVBw/edit#gid=1068541350

 

We like it in general as it amplifies ship qualities and moves away from the standardized teak/white. Please provide feedback on the numbers and stats if you think we missed something.

Couple of questions. 

1. Is it correct that the only way to get hp bonus now for ships is through planking?

2. As I also understand it, the repair amount is based on the Frame, correct? So say for example all ships now have a 20% base repair and under the new stats a LO (S) frame ship now has a base repair of 3%, correct?

3. Also, will there be a chance for players to trade their current ships/upgrades in exchange for the resources and mods back? Or at least do a ship wipe so we can redeem the ships in woods that are relevant now with the white oak nerf?

The reason I suggest this is the drastic nerf to White Oak. I understand the want to get away from the T/WO meta and support that but nerfing WO, especially the HP value, affects almost every RVR ship, as well as ships for PVE grinding in the game. It just doesn't nerf T/WO, but LO/WO, Cag/WO, O/WO, and especially WO/WO.

I compiled a chart showing the differences between the more common RVR builds based on current stats and future stats and then comparing it to the base values of a L'Ocean. I understand thickness values will be adjusted but wanted to use it as an example.

Note: I understand the changes to repair, mast thickness, acceleration, splinter resistance, etc; but not really comparable from the old stats to new.

Ships built for RVR are crafted to get a decent cross between hp and thickness. The changes to these builds nerf the hp across the board and in some instances the buffs are not worth the loss of hp. WO S/ WO S suffers the most from this as 3 thickness, and .5 knots is not worth losing 6300 side hp and 1800 structure. Teak S / WO S and Oak S / WO S also get hit hard with nerfs to both thickness and hp.

This is compounded more due to the high costs associated with crafting seasoned ships. Ships that crafters and players have spent hundreds of RL hours and hundreds of millions of reals obtaining to have top of the line ships to sail only for them to be severely nerfed. 

To craft a seasoned L'Ocean it costs around 22 Million, more if you have to buy the wood off of the open market. Buc's cost around 11 Million to craft, Implac's in the 10 Million range, even 5th rates run around 2 Million. To crafts ships in large numbers you have to rely on seasoned wood from privateer fleets, breaking up DLC ships, and crafting it to maximize efficiency. If you have to craft the ship strictly using labor hour contracts then you are looking at 307 per L'Ocean and 114 per Buc requiring a clan effort in producing that many labor hour contracts at an industrial rate. So now with this change, all our work, all our effort as crafters in crafting top of the line ships is wasted due to a change in the wood characteristics. I know solo players who since seasoned wood was introduced has been slowly crafting woods just to craft a single 1st rate and still aren't there yet. 

I was somewhat looking forward to the new woods, but not if it meant making the ships I currently have sub par all over again. Not if it meant months upon months of crafting labor hour contracts, (hundred of thousands of coal, iron, provisions), seasoned wood, and spending hundred of millions is suddenly completely wasted. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Redman29

[FrostZone]

"I was somewhat looking forward to the new woods, but not if it meant making the ships I currently have sub par all over again. Not if it meant months upon months of crafting labor hour contracts, coal, iron, provisions, seasoned wood, spending hundred of millions is suddenly completely wasted.  "

I don't think anyone wants to have to replace their RvR fleets from scratch.  A move like that seems very detrimental to the health and well being of the game.  Surely their is a plan in place to be able to reclaim those resources and mods.

Seems like a good idea, but not very good execution. Hopefully they re-consider or at least have a way to mitigate the impact of the changes to the players. 

 

 

[admin]

44 minutes ago, Redman29 said:

Note: I understand the changes to repair, mast thickness, acceleration, splinter resistance, etc; but not really comparable from the old stats to new.

 

The proposal is based on real wood hardness, gravity, elasticity, and yacht building books. 
But from feedback it is obvious that the change should not be full, but should be partial
Not 100% overhaul, but 

• 30% of stats should change (adding new interesting realistic stats like repair time rebasing splinter damage based on bending strength)
• 70% of stats should remain
• New woods should follow the meta
• Key stats currently valued by players should stay on the levels they were before.

[Sea Archer]

Imo woods should have no effect on the speed of the ships, since the water displacement must be the same for stability reasons. Though heavy and therefore tanky woods should have an impact on the heel and with it a certain vulnerability below the waterline, which somehow counters the tanky part above the surface.

[Redman29]

2 hours ago, admin said:

The proposal is based on real wood hardness, gravity, elasticity, and yacht building books. 
But from feedback it is obvious that the change should not be full, but should be partial
Not 100% overhaul, but 

• 30% of stats should change (adding new interesting realistic stats like repair time rebasing splinter damage based on bending strength)
• 70% of stats should remain
• New woods should follow the meta
• Key stats currently valued by players should stay on the levels they were before.

Awesome. Overall, I do enjoy a lot of the changes being proposed. I really like the variable repair based on wood as hopefully that will shift away from the repair meta. As well as the variable splinter damage based on wood. 

Still don't quite understand the turn inertia. As in the heavier the wood the worst the turn rate is?

Also, how and in what way will the new woods be available? I have found some for sell in ports by AI, but it seems to be random. 

[qw569😳]

What woods will be available for DLC ships?

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

Never understood that "all or nothing" mentality in ship crafting.

People going for max and accepting nothing below "max", calling anything different "worthless" and telling us here they need to dump everything and start from scratch because "the meta changed".

There are other builts possible. Just as good as your holy cow meta. It's just in your head, this obsession about "only my meta is true religion and burn everything else". I just have to remember my epic fights in a grey DeRuyter in caguairan/crewspace performing like a dream. According to the canon, I should have instantly sunk as it is so "worthless". But hell, I did not.

Love to see them getting disturbed in their archbishop seats

Naggers are going to nag, but we shipcrafters rejoice about new compositions and effects to play with.

[Daxav]

1 hour ago, Sea Archer said:

Imo woods should have no effect on the speed of the ships, since the water displacement must be the same for stability reasons. Though heavy and therefore tanky woods should have an impact on the heel and with it a certain vulnerability below the waterline, which somehow counters the tanky part above the surface.

I disagree. Wood density matters, as it affects the weight of the vessel. Why should the displacement be the same, as a different weight will allow for a lower water line to keep buoyancy? This in turn implies a smaller contact surface, which in turn, necessarily implies lower friction (together with a lower weight). Therefore, I can see speed being affected.  I'm not a naval architect (but let's just say I really know my Fluid Dynamics)... I would love to understand these arguments.

1 hour ago, Redman29 said:

Awesome. Overall, I do enjoy a lot of the changes being proposed. I really like the variable repair based on wood as hopefully that will shift away from the repair meta. As well as the variable splinter damage based on wood. 

Still don't quite understand the turn inertia. As in the heavier the wood the worst the turn rate is?

Also, how and in what way will the new woods be available? I have found some for sell in ports by AI, but it seems to be random. 

Turn inertia makes perfect sense. Higher mass => higher inertia. Acceleration, deceleration and turning should be slower. Plain classic Newtonian Physics.

I must say I love the variety. I personally don't go for the all-or-nothing wood combinations. Kudos @admin, although there seems so details of backwards compatibility to polish.

[Never]

50 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Never understood that "all or nothing" mentality in ship crafting.

People going for max and accepting nothing below "max", calling anything different "worthless" and telling us here they need to dump everything and start from scratch because "the meta changed".

There are other builts possible. Just as good as your holy cow meta. It's just in your head, this obsession about "only my meta is true religion and burn everything else". I just have to remember my epic fights in a grey DeRuyter in caguairan/crewspace performing like a dream. According to the canon, I should have instantly sunk as it is so "worthless". But hell, I did not.

Love to see them getting disturbed in their archbishop seats

Naggers are going to nag, but we shipcrafters rejoice about new compositions and effects to play with.

It has to do with pride more than anything (at least in my experience). A lot of players seem to play to win and losing is never acceptable, the fun factor apparently takes a backseat. It's only fun when they win. Protecting their name and reputation from someone else seeing that 'x player' sunk them would be an unbearable sight. To ensure that won't happen they need the absolute best ship available. 

I personally don't care about any meta. Only about people having put in many hours and effort into building up their dockyards and then those ships losing their value and their usefulness. In OW pvp I couldn't care less about how metas are changed, but in RvR sailing sub-par ships can easily cost you a PB. 

[Lizzo]

Despite the fact that current ships may no longer be the best, I am in favour of making the new special woods slightly better than the "ordinary" S-woods. If Live Oak (S) ships are still the most stable ones, everyone will still take their Victory 1765 to important harbour battles and sail the best ship. The motivation for specially built ships would be much higher, if e.g. Greenheart would be somewhat stronger than Live Oak (S). Then old ships would still be very good, but ambitious shipbuilders would have a new task again. Old Teak/White Oak ships should still be able to keep up, but I think it would be good if there were new, better builds so the meta changes a bit and there would be new goals for crafters.

 

[Redman29]

15 minutes ago, Lizzo said:

Despite the fact that current ships may no longer be the best, I am in favour of making the new special woods slightly better than the "ordinary" S-woods. If Live Oak (S) ships are still the most stable ones, everyone will still take their Victory 1765 to important harbour battles and sail the best ship. The motivation for specially built ships would be much higher, if e.g. Greenheart would be somewhat stronger than Live Oak (S). Then old ships would still be very good, but ambitious shipbuilders would have a new task again. Old Teak/White Oak ships should still be able to keep up, but I think it would be good if there were new, better builds so the meta changes a bit and there would be new goals for crafters.

 

Making the new special woods better than the seasoned woods will only increase the gap between the player base, especially if they end up only dropping in the shop as the price for them will sky rocket meaning the richest people on the server will be the ones that are most capable of building ships from them.

Also, if someone brings a full Victory 1765 fleet into an important port battle they most likely will lose. A non seasoned L'Ocean/Santi fleet will beat it 9 times out of 10 as the Victory lack dpm, is slower, and will lose when it comes to boarding. There's a reason the Buc is still the meta PB ship vs the Redoubt and Implac; even if they are not seasoned. 

With slight tweaks to the currents stats as admin has suggested along with the news woods coming in with similar stats across the board it will lead to many many new combinations in which there isn't necessary this is better than that type of scenario. Especially given the tweaks to repair times and amount. 

Especially if they open up planking to include LO, Cag, etc as there will be many many more combinations. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Redman29

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

22 minutes ago, Never said:

absolute best ship available

That is where the interpretation (and dogma) starts.

What is the best?

For these people you refer to it is most likely tankiness. Tankiness is teaching them the gospels of liveoak (s) / whiteoak (s).

For me, and my fighting style, there are more important aspects than being a sitting duck - slow and hard to turn - hence I despise the church of tankiness (as I call it in jest), their meta.

And new players get that hammered into their heads. Then you see them propagate same combos down to every frigate (!). I sometimes feel like exotic-weird-heretic when I talk on global in favor of teak against a stonewall of tankiness believers with their holy liveoak/whiteoak canon.

(True, I am on PvE peace server, so I can fancy my luxury wood compositions)

[Marku]

Sounds like interesting changes Admin, as a crafter i look forward to it.

[Lizzo]

15 minutes ago, Redman29 said:

A non seasoned L'Ocean/Santi fleet will beat it 9 times out of 10 as the Victory lack dpm, is slower, and will lose when it comes to boarding.

I agree with most of your points, but how is a seasoned Victory ever slower than a non seasoned L'Océan/Santi?

[Swedish Berserker]

Sure guys make all our ships useless 🤣🤣🤣👍

Ppl invested in ports to be able to harvest woods!!

Ppl spend lots of time and (ingame) money and resources to get seasoned wodds etc etc and now u make the regular wood combos useless? 

Great idea really looking fowart to the next patches 🙄🙄🙄👌🤦‍♂️

[Redman29]

1 minute ago, Lizzo said:

I agree with most of your points, but how is a seasoned Victory ever slower than a non seasoned L'Océan/Santi?

Vic 65 base is slower than all other 1st rates. Santi and L'Ocean you can craft with sail 4 where Vic 65 is random. So they overall are around same speed if not slight faster even non seasoned unless you get lucky with Vic's Port bonuses.

Margin is so low they are about same speed. So speed probably wasn't greatest example. 

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

4 hours ago, admin said:

The proposal is based on real wood hardness, gravity, elasticity, and yacht building books. 
But from feedback it is obvious that the change should not be full, but should be partial
Not 100% overhaul, but 

• 30% of stats should change (adding new interesting realistic stats like repair time rebasing splinter damage based on bending strength)
• 70% of stats should remain
• New woods should follow the meta
• Key stats currently valued by players should stay on the levels they were before.

guys I love you :). ... adding new realistic stats like repair time..... it took them 16 minutes to rebuild the victory at trafalgar. and they did it in battle! go figure! other crews disvovered entire masts hidden in theit hulls and - simsalabim  - off they went under full sails again! oh and of course sailors managed to escape davey jones´ caves and recrewed their shiny vessels. these changes will be interesting!