Shipbuilding Timbers Overhaul

[Redman29]

2 minutes ago, SnovaZdorowa said:

pvp missions, home defence fleet ==> wooden chests. no?

It has not been stated how we will get new woods but atm wooden chests do not drop them. And honestly shouldn't. Too much revolves around farming wooden chests from HDF as it is. 

[Louis Garneray]

19 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Nope. It concerns all of us.

Notice that I am not the only PvE player writing in this thread. If even my colleagues don't necessarily ride the same horse and differ from my opinion.

maybe coming from someone else will help you understand see below:

20 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

I understand that you were replying to others but ship quality is not important in pve. It is to a certain extent but in a competitive environment a 2% difference in stats can have a significant impact especially with multiple repairs. It's why the repair "meta" has made the game very inconsistent. 

[Sea Fox]

Been some back and forth on this and I'm confused. Will new woods be available on DLC ships?

[z4ys]

8 minutes ago, Sea Fox said:

Been some back and forth on this and I'm confused. Will new woods be available on DLC ships?

no dlc ships wont get those woods

 

Woods.

• Woods added to blueprints but are not dropping in ports yet, because wood stats are still getting rebalanced.
• New woods can be only used in crafting (they are not available in notes or redeemables)

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by z4ys

[Redman29]

On 6/13/2020 at 10:23 AM, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Also I wasn't citing what I ever said, but what I consistently read others writing with each change. Here on forum and on chat. So you should direct your reply to them who deplored their 'meta losses' and not to me.

No it was directed at you. 

You keep making subtle remarks about those of us who are complaining and even celebrating the fact that in the initial proposal our meta build would be nerfed. But again, I ask you did you bother to look at my data or even the data initially posted at the start of this thread? Do you consider Cag S / WO S, Oak S / WO S, Sabicu S / WO S or even WO S / WO S meta builds? Yeah, the meta builds would of been nerfed but so would almost every other build in the process. Ironically, the meta build LO S / WO S would of received less of a nerf compared to the non meta builds such as I listed above. 

I can live with a 30% change to the characteristics of the current wood to make way for the new woods as has been proposed and can get behind that.

But if you think a substantial nerf to the vast majority of ships across all builds was good for crafting then more power to you, and since you play on PVE so numbers don't matter as much there. But for me, having spent months collecting and crafting seasoned wood to build ships out of only for pretty much all of them to be nerfed and in several cases be rendered obsolete would of seen me leave the game as well as a lot of other crafters on the PVP server and numbers do matter there. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Redman29

[Karpfanger]

On 6/12/2020 at 4:16 PM, Daxav said:

Why? This is a complex game. Complexity makes it interesting, dynamic and heterogeneous. Too much simplicity can be argued to be the reason that only dogmatic wood + OP vessels are the choice of many. I'd like to see frigates dominating the sea (as they did historically), not first-rates, which arguably requires introducing significantly more complexity to the construction and maintenance  of your fleet so that first-rates are really mostly seen in very large RvR. 

OK... I agree with most of what you said.
But you have taken the complexity out of shipbuilding and destroyed whole supply chains. i.e. in the past, there were people who supported the shipbuilders with the production of some parts and got XP themselves. This was wanted by the devs, probably under pressure from some active forum warriors who wanted fast action.
Historically, fleets were supposed to be dominated by third rates ships and frigates were supposed to have their raison d'être and tasks.
2nd and 1rst rates should be available in a limited number. At the moment you can only do this in the game with the BR or with the balancing of the combat power.

[Daxav]

23 minutes ago, Karpfanger said:

OK... I agree with most of what you said.
But you have taken the complexity out of shipbuilding and destroyed whole supply chains. i.e. in the past, there were people who supported the shipbuilders with the production of some parts and got XP themselves. This was wanted by the devs, probably under pressure from some active forum warriors who wanted fast action.
Historically, fleets were supposed to be dominated by third rates ships and frigates were supposed to have their raison d'être and tasks.
2nd and 1rst rates should be available in a limited number. At the moment you can only do this in the game with the BR or with the balancing of the combat power.

I´m unsure if the way to go is to have a multi-level supply chain. Although it expands on complexity, it also forces you to grind a lot more... collect and haul resources, craft the parts, move the parts, etc. I think the woods are nice as they allow more combinations of stuff. Reintroducing the old crafting system does not seem to help to introduce a lot of diversity in the general gameplay, although I agree, it allows for more content for strong trader/crafting players. Some people have suggested that craft XP should be also obtained by crafting cannons and upgrades, this would also introduce content for trader/crafters, I think.

As for the 3d rates and frigates, as the main force, sure, the BR could be rebalanced, or a set of BRs could be specified to increase port battle fleet diversity. But most importantly, perhaps first rates should require a higher diversity of resources than other ships, or should have perhaps an exponentially increasing maintenance cost (repairing, dock space, perhaps additional resources necessary to refurbish parts). Alternatively, as you say, balancing out, in particular for RvR, the number of first rates that could enter a battle could have this effect. In my opinion, there is no "cons" to 1st rates, therefore why not tank-them up, have a few, and just go all out. You can even simply hoard 1st rates. Similar with the OP-wood-vessel dogmas... we need more pro-cons weighting to increase ship diversity. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Daxav

[mikawa]

Dear Admiralty,

There is one big point to consider, for crafting, woods and creating ship overall:

• RNG ist best suitable for all items that will remain once they are achieved

Example: Everything is fine with encyclopedias; you have to grind hard to get all the required books, build the academy and then finally you craft them and you keep them as long as you play
But if you craft a ship, you create an item which has 1 durability; One ambush and the best ship is gone; you cant compete with a combination of a fast ship and a heavy ship; the will certainly sink you.

There is nohing wrong with the fact that you have to grind special woods; let the grind be hard. But its wrong that the trim of the ship is random. You should aquire the knowledge to build a very fast ship by either a rare book or by crafting the same ship over and over again. Then you should be able to use it for a lifetime.

If you change that, the gameplay wil improve much.

So far the thoughts of a brave captain following you since 2016.

Best regards

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

23 minutes ago, mikawa said:

Dear Admiralty,

There is one big point to consider, for crafting, woods and creating ship overall:

• RNG ist best suitable for all items that will remain once they are achieved

Example: Everything is fine with encyclopedias; you have to grind hard to get all the required books, build the academy and then finally you craft them and you keep them as long as you play
But if you craft a ship, you create an item which has 1 durability; One ambush and the best ship is gone; you cant compete with a combination of a fast ship and a heavy ship; the will certainly sink you.

There is nohing wrong with the fact that you have to grind special woods; let the grind be hard. But its wrong that the trim of the ship is random. You should aquire the knowledge to build a very fast ship by either a rare book or by crafting the same ship over and over again. Then you should be able to use it for a lifetime.

If you change that, the gameplay wil improve much.

So far the thoughts of a brave captain following you since 2016.

Best regards

The idea is quite nice. Personally I´d prefer to nerf all effects drastically! It adds up to ridiculous values now. Repair amount, armor, effect of guns!, ... While there still is skill required to handle the vessels appropriately the zombie-ships will always have the upperhand. Even against increadible odds! I know that many players do not want to hear this, thus I adress them again and again. Is it really satisfying to win a race with a Gti against a Trabant?? The RNG in crafting I find quite exciting, while I am also of course a bit dissapointed if a new Endymion just becomes a standard blue one I still got a very good frigate and will use her fiercely in combat.

[Hethwill]

57 minutes ago, mikawa said:

Dear Admiralty,

There is one big point to consider, for crafting, woods and creating ship overall:

• RNG ist best suitable for all items that will remain once they are achieved

Example: Everything is fine with encyclopedias; you have to grind hard to get all the required books, build the academy and then finally you craft them and you keep them as long as you play
But if you craft a ship, you create an item which has 1 durability; One ambush and the best ship is gone; you cant compete with a combination of a fast ship and a heavy ship; the will certainly sink you.

There is nohing wrong with the fact that you have to grind special woods; let the grind be hard. But its wrong that the trim of the ship is random. You should aquire the knowledge to build a very fast ship by either a rare book or by crafting the same ship over and over again. Then you should be able to use it for a lifetime.

If you change that, the gameplay wil improve much.

So far the thoughts of a brave captain following you since 2016.

Best regards

Captain knowledge, in reality, did more to make a ship name as being fast and weatherly ( for example ) than its docks assembly.

For that reason we do have 5 captain knowledge slots in addition to appreciable shipwright possibilities.

There's numerous examples of this IRL, one of them being the USS Constitution. With some captains making her very speedy ( by their own knowledge applied to that ship ) while others just couldn't make her sail so well albeit having her go through fearsome combat.

In that regard, two different captains, two different knowledge, same ship, two different results. We do have that in game through Knowledge slots.

When you say "the gameplay will improve much" you should make a bit more individual as in "my gameplay will improve much".

Not against your idea, just think the price is too high when we already have a system - knowledge slots - that accommodate for that. ( and in extent the modules, being specific adjustments to sails, flush decks, etc, required by the commander of the veffel ).

Also regarding speed. The higher the pressure on water, the higher the resistance. A fast keel will find high resistance on turns, starting at a 1:8 ratio up to 1:32. Think a bit about that.

Very Fast would be, in average 16x less agile.  

[mikawa]

1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

In that regard, two different captains, two different knowledge, same ship, two different results.

Transpose this onto ship builders:

two different shipbuilders, two different knowledge. So a builder who knows to build a fast ship could apply his knowledge on new ships.

1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

A fast keel will find high resistance on turns

Would welcome that, but it's a different topic. We already have upgrades for speed affecting turn rate and vice versa.

[Hethwill]

5 minutes ago, mikawa said:

two different shipbuilders, two different knowledge.

two sister ships built in the same shipyard by the same team and both perform different IRL.

 

Was it the hemp quality that year ? Was it the excess moisture that season ? Maybe half an inch error on measures ? ( actually an inch and a quarter iirc ). Maybe the blocks were stored worse. Or the cotton quality. Who knows... rests on the captain to make the best of her.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Hethwill

[mikawa]

20 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

rests on the captain to make the best of her.

Then the performance in battle should vary too. Maybe the captain estimated the wind wrong? Maybe he pulled the ropes too tight? Maybe the wind suddenly changes to the opposite direction? The lessons learnt from one ship could not be transformed on another of the same type I guess. Then knowledge slots are not necessary and should be removed from game.

Stop.

Generally speaking I'm not a friend of too much randomness. Randomness generates a feeling that grinding is senseless because all what matters is personal luck. I don't believe this should be the main principle of a game settling on high virtues of past centuries.

[Sea Archer]

On 6/12/2020 at 3:45 PM, Archaos said:

Not correct, waterline is not at the same for all ships of the same class. All ships have an operating range of drafts they can operate under. When launched they are very light yet they are still stable. Once outfitted with cannons, stores, spares etc. they are deeper in the water. They may also have some ballast added to optimize stability.

Reducing weight reduces displacement and thus allows the ship go faster for the same motive force (this is already modeled in game by the reduction in speed as you load the vessel), but it is incorrect to say that this lessens stability. It depends where the weight is removed from, removing weight from above the original center of gravity will have the effect of lowering CoG. I agree in general terms that most stores etc are stowed lower in the hull so the use of them will raise the CoG, but voyages can be planned to take this into account so part way through the voyage the optimal stability is achieved.

Another factor where the type of wood can affect the speed of a ship is its resistance to marine growth. In the absence of copper plating or such protective sheathing certain woods are more prone to marine growth and this was one of the biggest factors reducing ships speed especially in the age of sail and in the Caribbean. Okay, marine growth on the hull is not modeled in the game, but in general terms you could say ships of certain woods would remain faster due to less marine growth.

No, a ship launched, without any ballast has little or no stability in water.

The pivot point of a ship depends on the center of gravity and buoyancy and can move depending on the heel. 

Our sailing ships in the game have a nearly constant weight above the water line with guns, crew, masts and some wooden hull structure. The buoyancy depends on the shape of the hull and the draft.

The further the ship moves out of the water (with unchanged weight of guns, etc.), the higher the center of gravity is. In the extrem it rises above the pivot point and the ship capsizes (even without any wind).

The weight in the hold moves the center of gravity downward  (ballast and/or provisions). This weight has to counter the wind forces on masts, rigging and sails, too. There will be a balance between both forces, the more heel, the bigger the influence of the weight and the lesser the forces on the sails.

This balance was calculated  by the old ship designers and works only with a defined draft. Therefore the weight of the woods has only very little influence on a ship's draft, if it shall be seaworthy.

If upper weight is removed, like the guns, stability increases with less draft, that vessel may sail faster, but as long as you have your guns on the ship the "standard" draft is required, which will result in standard speeds.

[Hethwill]

39 minutes ago, mikawa said:

Then the performance in battle should vary too

It does.

A captain with a quality Green ship might do better than a captain with Purple choice woods.

[Daxav]

1 hour ago, Sea Archer said:

The pivot point of a ship depends on the center of gravity and buoyancy and can move depending on the heel. 

Our sailing ships in the game have a nearly constant weight above the water line with guns, crew, masts and some wooden hull structure. The buoyancy depends on the shape of the hull and the draft.

The further the ship moves out of the water (with unchanged weight of guns, etc.), the higher the center of gravity is. In the extrem it rises above the pivot point and the ship capsizes (even without any wind).

The weight in the hold moves the center of gravity downward  (ballast and/or provisions). This weight has to counter the wind forces on masts, rigging and sails, too. There will be a balance between both forces, the more heel, the bigger the influence of the weight and the lesser the forces on the sails.

This balance was calculated  by the old ship designers and works only with a defined draft. Therefore the weight of the woods has only very little influence on a ship's draft, if it shall be seaworthy.

If upper weight is removed, like the guns, stability increases with less draft, that vessel may sail faster, but as long as you have your guns on the ship the "standard" draft is required, which will result in standard speeds.

What do you mean by the pivot point? As far as I understand the so-called pivot point is on a horizontal plane. Recall that bodies rotate over their center-of-mass anyway. I think you mean the metacenter, in which case, yes, as you say if it is below the CoG during heeling, the ship is unstable. 
The position of the CoG does not depend on the draft, only on the geometry and position of masses. The heeling angle does not change the influence of the weight, only changes the righting moment, which, sure also needs to balance out (possibly) wind.

Assuming a constant ship geometry, the ratio of weight from Fir wood (density 530 kg/m3) to Oak wood (750 kg/m3) is 0.7, which is non-negligible. This will allow for a fir hull to float with a lower draft. If we now assume the Fir and Oak ship to be equally loaded, the Fir ship still floats with a lower draft, although arguably the differences under loaded conditions will be smaller than without cargo. That means, under the same geometry, two different woods will result in different draft, which means that the lighter wood will experience somewhat smaller friction.
Your argument of the CoG being too high is unlikely to hold with a full ship, and likely also with a mostly empty ship,  because the geometry itself (with rounded sides, reaching away from the vertical axis)  favours the CoG to be quite low. I do agree that the lower the better, because wind can potentially make things worse in turn of roll-stability. But even in the case that you argument holds, what necessarily should happen is that the geometry would be slightly modified, to increase the displacement below the water line or lower the center of mass. My gut feeling is that the modification would not be huge, affecting the volume much more than surface area, thus still leading to a (marginally?) faster ship. The increase in speed is likely possible to be smaller the taller the ship hull is, and larger as you go into very shallow vessels, in which the CoG can't really move very much even if you make the ship very light/heavy. This seems reasonably well-captured in the NA mechanics.

All this to say, really, that I think it is more complicated than it seems, especially for very tall vessels (1st rates?). It would be necessary to really estimate the weight of the ship itself (wood!) and the weights of guns, ballast and cargo to get a better assessment. In any case, increases in maximum speed due to lighter woods, I still think are justified by the lower density, and if necessary, by imagining that the geometries are indeed not exactly the same. This would also make sense, because the mechanical properties of different woods (elasticity, resistance) would allow for different structures/geometries. I have no idea what is the critical stress that the structure should withstand (some bending moments along the longitudinal axis?), but unlikely to be the weight itself. If it were weight, one could really get a much faster ship with lighter wood, as all structural elements would have smaller cross-sections.

[cmdrbobcito]

Ship Crafting is a basic element of this game and woods are at the center of this effort.  But the idea the ship itself is the only important ingredient to a successful battle is absolutely wrong. 

A Great ship with a poor captain is not a success...Great Captain with a medium ship is a much better bet.  

Lesson...spend more time becoming the better Captain and less worrying about how great your ship is relative to others on the water.  Bring on the new woods...;)

[Trawn]

6 hours ago, cmdrbobcito said:

Ship Crafting is a basic element of this game and woods are at the center of this effort.  But the idea the ship itself is the only important ingredient to a successful battle is absolutely wrong. 

A Great ship with a poor captain is not a success...Great Captain with a medium ship is a much better bet.  

Lesson...spend more time becoming the better Captain and less worrying about how great your ship is relative to others on the water.  Bring on the new woods...;)

But fight of equal captains is decides by ships. Thats why they matters. You cant be so bumptious to think you are the best captain of high seas. You have to account for meeting a equal or better player so you need any advantage you can get (ship)

[Lukas97Austria]

On 6/15/2020 at 12:42 PM, Hethwill said:

Captain knowledge, in reality, did more to make a ship name as being fast and weatherly ( for example ) than its docks assembly.

For that reason we do have 5 captain knowledge slots in addition to appreciable shipwright possibilities.

There's numerous examples of this IRL, one of them being the USS Constitution. With some captains making her very speedy ( by their own knowledge applied to that ship ) while others just couldn't make her sail so well albeit having her go through fearsome combat.

In that regard, two different captains, two different knowledge, same ship, two different results. We do have that in game through Knowledge slots.

When you say "the gameplay will improve much" you should make a bit more individual as in "my gameplay will improve much".

Not against your idea, just think the price is too high when we already have a system - knowledge slots - that accommodate for that. ( and in extent the modules, being specific adjustments to sails, flush decks, etc, required by the commander of the veffel ).

Also regarding speed. The higher the pressure on water, the higher the resistance. A fast keel will find high resistance on turns, starting at a 1:8 ratio up to 1:32. Think a bit about that.

Very Fast would be, in average 16x less agile.  

Sure... But due ship knowledge there are 4 book slots reserved for any kind of combat. Art of ship handling. Gunnery enclopedia. Expert carpenter and the carpenter combat book.   New is now the seeferkel books. Everything else is kinda useless.    Sure with a golden ship and northern master carps you could get rid off one of the two repair books. But to be honest. Overall it looks kinda the same. Atleast I didn't find any other books I should use than that 5. 

[Lukas97Austria]

6 hours ago, cmdrbobcito said:

Ship Crafting is a basic element of this game and woods are at the center of this effort.  But the idea the ship itself is the only important ingredient to a successful battle is absolutely wrong. 

A Great ship with a poor captain is not a success...Great Captain with a medium ship is a much better bet.  

Lesson...spend more time becoming the better Captain and less worrying about how great your ship is relative to others on the water.  Bring on the new woods...;)

But two equal captains fighting each other. The better ship will win the fight. Even when both ships are the same like 2 Connie's. The better Connie in terms of upgrades wins.  Point.   This reminds me of the old book advantage discuss. I never had this books before the wipe. Now after the wipe I have it. Anyone that says this books don't matter in an combat should get slapped out of the game. I mean gunnery book makes it super easy to snipe instead of having a shotgun etc. If you want a more balanced game or atleast going into skill based game, you need to find a enemy's that have the same equidment than you. Or b the books and woods should have little bonuses. Example the gunnery book bonuses are jn an area of under 1% of change to standard uses. Same with woods. The range of making a ship better or not should be in the under 1% area... Still slightly better but not complete broken compared to old non s wood ships. But that's just me and my opinion. Most people sadly don't share this view. 

 

[mikawa]

4 minutes ago, Lukas97Austria said:

going into skill based game

That is exactly the point. Player skill does not matter in a way I would wish for. It is only a part of the way to win a battle. The other parts are pure RNG of crafter (shipcrafting bonuses, upgrades, woods) and the "virtual" skills of the character (books, ship knowledge, ship woods).

The most thrilling battles I had were with equal virtual preconditions but these happened a long time ago, in times before the wipe.

[Archaos]

On 6/15/2020 at 2:04 PM, Sea Archer said:

No, a ship launched, without any ballast has little or no stability in water.

The pivot point of a ship depends on the center of gravity and buoyancy and can move depending on the heel. 

Our sailing ships in the game have a nearly constant weight above the water line with guns, crew, masts and some wooden hull structure. The buoyancy depends on the shape of the hull and the draft.

The further the ship moves out of the water (with unchanged weight of guns, etc.), the higher the center of gravity is. In the extrem it rises above the pivot point and the ship capsizes (even without any wind).

The weight in the hold moves the center of gravity downward  (ballast and/or provisions). This weight has to counter the wind forces on masts, rigging and sails, too. There will be a balance between both forces, the more heel, the bigger the influence of the weight and the lesser the forces on the sails.

This balance was calculated  by the old ship designers and works only with a defined draft. Therefore the weight of the woods has only very little influence on a ship's draft, if it shall be seaworthy.

If upper weight is removed, like the guns, stability increases with less draft, that vessel may sail faster, but as long as you have your guns on the ship the "standard" draft is required, which will result in standard speeds.

For a start a ship would not be launched with no stability as it would almost instantly capsize.

If as you say the weight in the ships is constant then the difference in weight of the ships is the material they are constructed from. If you use a heavier wood you will have a greater displacement for the same design of ship than one made from lighter woods if they are outfitted with exactly the same guns, stores, ballast etc.

It is not necessarily true that the further the ship comes out of the water the higher the center of gravity will be. If you remove weight from above the CoG then the CoG will move down even though the removal of weight will decrease the displacement and make the ship lighter.

In the statical stability case when the vessel is not being acted on by external forces the vessel will settle in equilibrium with the weight forces acting down through the CoG balanced with the buoyancy forces acting up through the Center of buoyancy. If the CoG is off center and the underwater hull shape is uniform, then the vessel will have an angle of list.

As an external force such as the wind is applied we then start looking at the dynamic stability where the CoG remains the same as long as nothing moves in the ship but the CoB changes because it is the center of the underwater volume of the ship and as the ship heels due to wind force the underwater shape changes. Again in this case a balance of forces is reached where the righting lever created between the offset CoB and the CoG balances the external lever of the wind and the vessel will remain at that angle of heel while the external force remains.

I still do not understand where you get the term defined draft as all vessels can sail perfectly well over a range of drafts without being unstable. I am not sure you realize that even a difference of 6 inches can make a big difference to the vessels displacement and all this can affect the speed. In the era covered by this game there were no load lines for ships in fact the first international convention on load lines did not take place till 1930, prior to that there were no assigned load lines and vessels could be loaded to a draft that they deemed safe. But even a load line is only a limit above which a ship should not be loaded.

To put it simply there is no fixed draft that a vessel has to be at, but an operational range of drafts that they can operate at and as such for the same loadout a vessel made of lighter material should be able to go faster than the same vessel constructed out of a heavier material. Below is a link which has a table of some wood densities, it is from a kayak building site but it shows how using certain woods could make the kayak 50% lighter.

https://cedarstripkayak.wordpress.com/lumber-selection/162-2/

 

[Sea Archer]

6 hours ago, Archaos said:

For a start a ship would not be launched with no stability as it would almost instantly capsize.

If as you say the weight in the ships is constant then the difference in weight of the ships is the material they are constructed from. If you use a heavier wood you will have a greater displacement for the same design of ship than one made from lighter woods if they are outfitted with exactly the same guns, stores, ballast etc.

It is not necessarily true that the further the ship comes out of the water the higher the center of gravity will be. If you remove weight from above the CoG then the CoG will move down even though the removal of weight will decrease the displacement and make the ship lighter.

In the statical stability case when the vessel is not being acted on by external forces the vessel will settle in equilibrium with the weight forces acting down through the CoG balanced with the buoyancy forces acting up through the Center of buoyancy. If the CoG is off center and the underwater hull shape is uniform, then the vessel will have an angle of list.

As an external force such as the wind is applied we then start looking at the dynamic stability where the CoG remains the same as long as nothing moves in the ship but the CoB changes because it is the center of the underwater volume of the ship and as the ship heels due to wind force the underwater shape changes. Again in this case a balance of forces is reached where the righting lever created between the offset CoB and the CoG balances the external lever of the wind and the vessel will remain at that angle of heel while the external force remains.

I still do not understand where you get the term defined draft as all vessels can sail perfectly well over a range of drafts without being unstable. I am not sure you realize that even a difference of 6 inches can make a big difference to the vessels displacement and all this can affect the speed. In the era covered by this game there were no load lines for ships in fact the first international convention on load lines did not take place till 1930, prior to that there were no assigned load lines and vessels could be loaded to a draft that they deemed safe. But even a load line is only a limit above which a ship should not be loaded.

To put it simply there is no fixed draft that a vessel has to be at, but an operational range of drafts that they can operate at and as such for the same loadout a vessel made of lighter material should be able to go faster than the same vessel constructed out of a heavier material. Below is a link which has a table of some wood densities, it is from a kayak building site but it shows how using certain woods could make the kayak 50% lighter.

https://cedarstripkayak.wordpress.com/lumber-selection/162-2/

 

I do not deny that a ships can sail with slightly differing drafts. Still the stiffness and heel will be influenced by it. Even in the period we are talking about ship building changed from a only experience driven business to a scientific one. If you have a look in Chapmans "Architectura Navalis Mercatoria", you will find in each draft desined water line. Finally every captain (or his sailing master) decided which trim a ship would have. One part of that book descibes the methods to calculate the different ship's properties.

Kayak building is a different matter, no sails and only form stability, no ballast needed.

What I want to say is, that the weight above the water line (guns, etc) in in our game the same for every ship, the sails and rigging are the same, too, as well as the shape of the hull. If the light wood ships shall have the same properties in terms of heeling, they must have the same Metacenter, and therefor the same CoG and CoB. So when all forces above the water are the same, the under water forces must be the same, too, to have the same effects.

If a ship  has a slightly deeper or shallower draft, it must affect the heel, since the CoB will change, especially during heeling.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Sea Archer

[Archaos]

8 minutes ago, Sea Archer said:

I do not deny that a ships can sail with slightly differing drafts. Still the stiffness and heel will be influenced by it. Even in the period we are talking about ship building changed from a only experience driven business to a scientific one. If you have a look in Chapmans "Architectura Navalis Mercatoria", you will find in each draft desined water line. Finally every captain (or his sailing master) decided which trim a ship would have. One part of that book descibes the methods to calculate the different ship's properties.

Kayak building is a different matter, no sails and only form stability, no ballast needed.

What I want to say is, that the weight above the water line (guns, etc) in in our game the same for every ship, the sails and rigging are the same, too, as well as the shape of the hull. If the light wood ships shall have the same properties in terms of heeling, they must have the same Metacenter, and therefor the same CoG and CoB. So when all forces above the water are the same, the under water forces must be the same, too, to have the same effects.

If a ship  has a slightly deeper or shallower draft, it must affect the heel, since the CoB will change, especially during heeling.

Sorry you are wrong. If everything about two ships is the same except for the wood used in building then the ships will have different drafts with the one made of lighter wood having a lesser draft. The only way that they can have the same draft is if the lighter wood ship adds more ballast, but even in such a case the characteristics would be different with different centers of gravity between the vessels and thus different stability.

When you start talking about trim you open up a whole new discussion as two identical ships with identical loadout can sail differently due to the different distribution of the same loads within a vessel (trimming). Moving the loads changes the CoG and thus the stability this can lead to a trim by the head or by the stern which can affect how the vessel sails and also the speed.

The metacenter is an imaginary point, where the force of buoyancy intersects the original vertical force line of buoyancy when the vessel is heeled slightly. Similar ships may have the same metacenter but can have completely different GM and BM as G (CoG) depends on the weight distribution and B (CoB) depends on the underwater volume which changes with draft. So I do not see how you think that because M is the same for both ships that G and B must also be the same.

The same basic principles of naval architecture apply to any floating object whether it is a simple kayak, a modern super tanker or a line ship in the age of sail.

You fail to provide a link to the book you mention, but I think you are misunderstanding what you have read. I agree that the same ship will have different stability at different drafts and also with different distribution of the same load, but that does not make them unseaworthy and various captains may have preferred different trims to suit their preferences and how the ship handled at different trims. It still does not get away from the fact that a ship built of lighter material will displace less than a ship built of heavier material if both have the same dimensions and loadout.

If you were stating that the speed difference is minimal then I could possibly agree that the game may exaggerate the speed difference for different woods, but in practice there would still be a speed difference.

[mikawa]

What about thickness? If a crafter could slighty adjust it, he could balance speed / durability a bit.

Thicker Fir boards may sustain more cannonball hits but slower the ship.