Shipbuilding Timbers Overhaul

[Swedish Berserker]

13 hours ago, admin said:

Hello Captains

Nothing can be more important to the naval architect than a thorough knowledge of the properties of the materials with which he has to deal with. 
He can use this knowledge to his greatest advantage and thus produce a well proportioned ship of great speed or strength.

The properties of timber will be first considered:

• Bending and elasticity
  • will affect how masts hold together and splinter damage
• Hardness 
  • will affect how hard the wood affecting thickness and time to repair
• Weight and Gravity
  • will affect HP and speed/acceleration parameter and turn inertia.
• Durability
  • Will affect repair amount
• Cost
  • With much bigger quality comes bigger cost 
  • Distant woods will of course be more expensive.

The base thickness of ships will slightly change as well, as well as acceleration (base accel will be slightly lowered)
Caps for certain stats will be increased. Speed cap will slightly increase too, but light woods will be drastically softer.
 

Table

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mM1LEvwbt1tXOudiDUpTsT97wum_DvZDEs-S1YrkVBw/edit#gid=1068541350

 

We like it in general as it amplifies ship qualities and moves away from the standardized teak/white. Please provide feedback on the numbers and stats if you think we missed something.

You yourself said that you are not going to change stuff the Players already have and few months later you do exactly that!!!!! 

Bringing new woods is cool but if you make 90% of the ships now ingame useless it is BS!! 

You are loosing players and getting more bad steam reviews and you wonder why? 

 

[Sea Archer]

1 hour ago, Daxav said:

3 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

Imo woods should have no effect on the speed of the ships, since the water displacement must be the same for stability reasons. Though heavy and therefore tanky woods should have an impact on the heel and with it a certain vulnerability below the waterline, which somehow counters the tanky part above the surface.

I disagree. Wood density matters, as it affects the weight of the vessel. Why should the displacement be the same, as a different weight will allow for a lower water line to keep buoyancy? This in turn implies a smaller contact surface, which in turn, necessarily implies lower friction (together with a lower weight). Therefore, I can see speed being affected.  I'm not a naval architect (but let's just say I really know my Fluid Dynamics)... I would love to understand these arguments.

All ships, no matter the wood, must have the water line at the same hight. If not the balance between center of weight and center of buoyancy is not given and the ship will tend to capsize. This stability problem was historically experienced when ships returned from long voyages and were very low on stores.

Of course you can reduce the weight of a vessel to increase speed. This comes with less stability and due to lesser draft, with more leeway. 

[Jan van Santen]

3 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

 but we shipcrafters I rejoice about new compositions and effects to play with.

Speak for yourself....

The real issue for shipcrafters is rng...A new system requiring people to rebuild their fleet is fun, but not if it means a hell of a lot of grind.

The current rng crafting  does in no way  reflect eg crafters experience in ship quality. 

There are no  quality boosting ingredients like the gold coins in the old system either.

There is no way at all to increase ship quality other than the law of large numbers (aka massive grind)

This needs to change first

Wood diversity  comes second.

PS: pitty the players who converted their AdR notes to now obsolete wood combos ...

Edited June 12, 2020 by Jan van Santen

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

51 minutes ago, Swedish Berserker said:

You yourself said that you are not going to change stuff the Players already have and few months later you do exactly that!!!!! 

Bringing new woods is cool but if you make 90% of the ships now ingame useless it is BS!! 

You are loosing players and getting more bad steam reviews and you wonder why? 

Why does your ranting sound the same each time I find it? You really resemble your avatar more than is good for you...

Pointless claims across the board.

At least few hours later you always seem to have triggered your brain again, each time. And come to other conclusions.

[Daxav]

37 minutes ago, Sea Archer said:

All ships, no matter the wood, must have the water line at the same hight. If not the balance between center of weight and center of buoyancy is not given and the ship will tend to capsize. This stability problem was historically experienced when ships returned from long voyages and were very low on stores.

Of course you can reduce the weight of a vessel to increase speed. This comes with less stability and due to lesser draft, with more leeway. 

Thanks for the point-of-view. I can see that different displacement volumes will generate the center of mass and the center of buoyancy to move (vertically) further apart, potentially increasing a moment that will make the ship to heel a lot and perhaps capsize. But precisely because of the positions of those centers, I can't see why the water line should be fixed, as the position of the center of mass depends both on shape and density. Even assuming that to be true, an appropriately sized keel should compensate. The question is then, if the size of the keel to prevent excessive heeling will generate a friction surface comparable to the reduction of friction surface due to a smaller displacement. I'm intrigued. Looks like I have to do some reading... In any case, what it is safe to assume is that ships built of different woods, would require slight modifications of their structure to make sure that they behave as expected. Can't design the shape without considering the physical properties of the material. Although I am now a bit more uncertain, I remain inclined to think that lighter woods should allow higher speed, and most importantly, higher acceleration/deceleration/turn rates.

[Swedish Berserker]

12 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Why does your ranting sound the same each time I find it? You really resemble your avatar more than is good for you...

Pointless claims across the board.

At least few hours later you always seem to have triggered your brain again, each time. And come to other conclusions.

LOL you have no idea what effect that has eon the PVP server dude!! 

AI stays as predictable and easy to kill!! 

But try to kill a Player with the new OP woods if your best ships all of a sudden are useless!! 

Its mabey a cool Thing on PVE server but it's easy to kill AI all day and also you can farm stuff way more easy since there is no Danger what so ever on the PVE server........ 

And I have every right to express my opinion here and I am not gonna let you tell me what and what not I am allowed to say!! 

And I am especially not tolerating you insultic me!!

Good day King of Carebares 

[Jan van Santen]

11 minutes ago, Swedish Berserker said:

 

Its mabey a cool Thing on PVE server

it's not a cool thing on PvE server either

1) PvE server has no endgame, collecting a quality fleet substitutes for it.

2) Also quality ships open the way to more challenging gameplay on PvE: you can try larger fleets, try challenges not meant to be soloed etc. 

No risk, no fun ...directly translates to: no quality, no fun....

 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Jan van Santen

[Holm Hansen]

8 hours ago, Vlad007 said:

If the function of woods changes so dramatically, then why not introduce a re planking function that costs resources and reals so you can replank old ships. Not the structure just the planking and have a timer on it so it takes 24 hours for the work to complete and can only bee done once a month. Just an idea

I think the replank funktion is a very good and realistic idea, which could stay in the game not only temporarily (to ease the introduction of the new woodtypes), but permanently.

And i think that this would certainly motivate us to experiment more with woods aside the meta that is undoubtedly new forming.
It would also make "collecting" very rare woods a little more fun, than having to build the ships with the collected logs afterwards new ( .... just to have then a bad RNG roll).

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Holm Hansen

[Swedish Berserker]

24 minutes ago, Jan van Santen said:

it's not a cool thing on PvE server either

1) PvE server has no endgame, collecting a quality fleet substitutes for it.

2) Also quality ships open the way to more challenging gameplay on PvE: you can try larger fleets, try challenges not meant to be soloed etc. 

No risk, no fun ...directly translates to: no quality, no fun....

 

 

@adminSo if it is bad on PVP server and also bad on PvE server why the hello kitty implement it in the game lol nobody asked for that kinda stuff!!! 

People are crying for new ships and stuff (not only DLCs) 

I kinda like the new Reyuter event with the notes and stuff and also like the new Vic but to be fair it's a ship we already had ingame..... 

I also like the idea of new content and new stuff to do but not with all existing woods/ships all of a sudden being weaker or even useless in comparison..... 

New woods OK but without changing already existing woods/ships! 

You yourself said it that chamchging stuff that is already in the game is bad for the players!!!! 

 

[Trawn]

33 minutes ago, Jan van Santen said:

it's not a cool thing on PvE server either

1) PvE server has no endgame, collecting a quality fleet substitutes for it.

2) Also quality ships open the way to more challenging gameplay on PvE: you can try larger fleets, try challenges not meant to be soloed etc. 

No risk, no fun ...directly translates to: no quality, no fun....

 

 

MILION TIMES THIS!! @Cetric de Cornusiac I respect you mate, but this time it seems you missed the memo. Especialy since you also play on PvE, you should know, that the sole endgame is challenging yourself in beating multiples of your BR rating to speed up the grind. Sure, you can beat whatever number of ships in cag/crew space Ruyter, but I can guarantee you would be able to do it much faster in Tk(s)/Wo(s) with decent PBs. So why shooting your own foot with discregarding "best, coolest, meta, whatever you call it" ship? Why walk on one foot when you can use a Hayabusa (really fast motorcycle for those who dont know or care).

With these changes all our best ships go to trash. I mean, I dont mind blue ones, farming wood is not that hard on PvE, but what about our golds?How many dozens of ships you need to gring all over again to get good ship?

It is not like you CANT play without the best ships, it is that getting the best ships is the point. PvE server is like Pokemon game. For the lack of any end game goals, you need to create one. And the (probably the only) one you can make is collecting best ships.

[Trawn]

Also one more important difference between PvP and PvE. People say, that PvP will get hit more, but honestly, making your ships weaker means your opponent´s ship is weaker also on PvP. But on PvE we face dumb, but increasingly buffed AIs so you need the best ships you can get in order to not get steamrolled. Why you think nobody uses anything else then lo/wo and tk/wo?  Bcs who the hell would want to face home defence fleets in fir/bermuda ships???

Edited June 12, 2020 by Trawn

[Cap Trujis]

@admin people  werent aware of the changes that the new Woods would bring when we made our ruyters, dianas and Santa Cecilia, could you at least let us have the notes again to make ships again so that ther arent useless? or maybe give to us one week more with event rare ships

Edited June 12, 2020 by Cap Trujis
Bad traduction

[SneakyTurtle]

I thank you for showing us all the woods and what they can do.  But I'm very disappointed that I can only view this document.   That is a lot of data to absorb without coping or printing it.

[Jan van Santen]

52 minutes ago, SneakyTurtle said:

I thank you for showing us all the woods and what they can do.  But I'm very disappointed that I can only view this document.   That is a lot of data to absorb without coping or printing it.

Similar pov here. I'll wait till the finetuning is finished...and Felix Victor found time to translate this to smthg one can actually work with. (aka namap)

Once more I miss testbed.  Patches with such an impact should be tested before going life.

 

[Louis Garneray]

3 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Why does your ranting sound the same each time I find it? You really resemble your avatar more than is good for you...

Pointless claims across the board.

At least few hours later you always seem to have triggered your brain again, each time. And come to other conclusions.

Maybe the impact is greater on PVP server than PVE...
That's why people are more on the edge when they realize that their optimum ships are not anymore.

[Joseph Taylor]

Just now, Louis Garneray said:

Maybe the impact is greater on PVP server than PVE...
That's why people are more on the edge when they realize that their optimum ships are not anymore.

People assumed their ships would lose the buffs and started panicking. Noone said old ships would turn into trash. How I see it: 

a) Only new crafted ships will have new wood stats after the patch. Old ships remain as they were thus creating 'legendary' ships from the 'previous era'
or
b) Patch with new woods will go live with other meaningful changes after the wipe.

[Vibrio Cholerae]

2 hours ago, Cap Trujis said:

people  werent aware of the changes that the new Woods would bring when we made our ruyters, dianas and Santa Cecilia, could you at least let us have the notes again to make ships again so that ther arent useless? or maybe give to us one week more with event rare ships

If I had red right you can't get the new wood from note

[Eduard L'Aquila]

9 hours ago, admin said:

10 hours ago, Redman29 said:

 

The proposal is based on real wood hardness, gravity, elasticity, and yacht building books. 
But from feedback it is obvious that the change should not be full, but should be partial

Thank you for at considering this option.

[Archaos]

4 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

All ships, no matter the wood, must have the water line at the same hight. If not the balance between center of weight and center of buoyancy is not given and the ship will tend to capsize. This stability problem was historically experienced when ships returned from long voyages and were very low on stores.

Of course you can reduce the weight of a vessel to increase speed. This comes with less stability and due to lesser draft, with more leeway. 

Not correct, waterline is not at the same for all ships of the same class. All ships have an operating range of drafts they can operate under. When launched they are very light yet they are still stable. Once outfitted with cannons, stores, spares etc. they are deeper in the water. They may also have some ballast added to optimize stability.

Reducing weight reduces displacement and thus allows the ship go faster for the same motive force (this is already modeled in game by the reduction in speed as you load the vessel), but it is incorrect to say that this lessens stability. It depends where the weight is removed from, removing weight from above the original center of gravity will have the effect of lowering CoG. I agree in general terms that most stores etc are stowed lower in the hull so the use of them will raise the CoG, but voyages can be planned to take this into account so part way through the voyage the optimal stability is achieved.

Another factor where the type of wood can affect the speed of a ship is its resistance to marine growth. In the absence of copper plating or such protective sheathing certain woods are more prone to marine growth and this was one of the biggest factors reducing ships speed especially in the age of sail and in the Caribbean. Okay, marine growth on the hull is not modeled in the game, but in general terms you could say ships of certain woods would remain faster due to less marine growth.

[Karpfanger]

Diverse possibilities in shipbuilding are good ... and new woods also bring content into the game ...  but that's probably a bit too much.
The warehouse of my shipyard is not big enough to store all these 31 different types of wood and also the other necessary materials and cannons.
If you want to implement this, I'll need my own timber store. Even then it will be difficult to keep track.
"Keep it simple" should be the motto here.

[Daxav]

19 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Not correct, waterline is not at the same for all ships of the same class. All ships have an operating range of drafts they can operate under. When launched they are very light yet they are still stable. Once outfitted with cannons, stores, spares etc. they are deeper in the water. They may also have some ballast added to optimize stability.

Excellent point. I tend to agree. 

21 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Okay, marine growth on the hull is not modeled in the game, but in general terms you could say ships of certain woods would remain faster due to less marine growth.

Would be a nice addition to increase complexity. By keeping track of the time a ship spends at sea, there could be a penalty to speed, which is recovered either by careening (paying for it!) or leaving the ship for some time alone... larger ships would of course suffer/cost more. The interaction of these dynamics with wood, thus including a new "durability" stat would be interesting. Just thinking out loud.

[Daxav]

4 minutes ago, Karpfanger said:

"Keep it simple" should be the motto here.

Why? This is a complex game. Complexity makes it interesting, dynamic and heterogeneous. Too much simplicity can be argued to be the reason that only dogmatic wood + OP vessels are the choice of many. I'd like to see frigates dominating the sea (as they did historically), not first-rates, which arguably requires introducing significantly more complexity to the construction and maintenance  of your fleet so that first-rates are really mostly seen in very large RvR. 

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

3 hours ago, Trawn said:

It is not like you CANT play without the best ships, it is that getting the best ships is the point. PvE server is like Pokemon game.

All I can say to this, we also have different playstyles on PvE server (something the raging bunny also does not understand). While some may strive for the best gear possible, others get their satisfaction from fighting with handicapped equipment, or simply not-so-perfect. It's the same as fighting uphill (against higher rank enemy ships) - the challenge is larger.

Also I think you premium-equipment-lovers understand the purpose of new wood criteria wrong. There will simply be MORE criteria than ever before (now repair effort differing for example), and that is fine with me.

Furthermore, the 3 year old concept of tankiness, what some conservative shipbuilders here have too much difficulty to get rid of in their heads, needed a shake-up. Think of the fun experimenting with new wood combos, until you found what suits you best. Now that is content too. What you prefer, experimenting or sitting on 3 year old dogmas?

I expect there will be no new "meta-built" everybody is asked to follow like a sheep herd, as "all others are worthless". There will be just several possible accents you chose. That's great.

More than just the simple decision tankiness or speed/maneuverability or a blend inbetween.

Who isn't yet petrified should welcome new possibilities.

And no. Existing ships are still premium, particulary as you have probably maxed port boni and the best upgrades on them.

Don't act like we have another wipe like exactly one year ago, with game release. Now that was bad (gold ships etc gone) . Nothing ever since is.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Cetric de Cornusiac

[Henry Long Castle]

I just hope that the ships I already have that go 16 knots dont become useless with this update.

[Louis Garneray]

2 hours ago, Joseph Taylor said:

People assumed their ships would lose the buffs and started panicking. Noone said old ships would turn into trash. How I see it: 

a) Only new crafted ships will have new wood stats after the patch. Old ships remain as they were thus creating 'legendary' ships from the 'previous era'
or
b) Patch with new woods will go live with other meaningful changes after the wipe.

That's what happened when players invest their time and resources to gather the Teak(s) and other useful (s) woods in the game.

I know some players who try to sail mostly purple ships with optimum upgrades and woods with the perfect trim (very fast or whatever their meta is) and that takes a lot of time to get.
Then people like me don't really care much. Sure I'll complain if I have to face a ship with one of those exotic woods but I'll do my best. But then also I'm not the king of PVP.

1 hour ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

All I can say to this, we also have different playstyles on PvE server (something the raging bunny also does not understand). While some may strive for the best gear possible, others get their satisfaction from fighting with handicapped equipment, or simply not-so-perfect. It's the same as fighting uphill (against higher rank enemy ships) - the challenge is larger.

I can't really comment on PVE server. I'm not there. I only know what PvP players like.

The real PVP fighters like speed, an escape wind (in case of gank or fight turning bad) and fire power.

I don't even know what will be the availability of the new wood but even if it's rare I know that the best pvp players will have it.