Trading Explained - Feedback welcome

[Angus MacDuff]

4 hours ago, Nooop said:

You should be able to put contracts for everything.

We just finally got rid of that.  It allows certain players to corner the market.  Much better now to have to be physically present in order to purchase goods.  A smart player will figure out how to do that often enough to make a substantial profit.

 

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 3:18 PM, JDMonster said:

With money being easily made with trading, there will (probably) be a rapid inflation in prices across the server.

Some players do nothing but make money.  They are the ones that have a ridiculous surplus.  I personally find trading to be a necessary evil and enjoy the fact that I can make enough money in a reasonable time to support me for many days (before i'm forced to trade again).

[Liq]

Didn't exactly know where to put it so posting it here.

Keep seeing lots of new players asking in help chat whether or not they could enter enemy ports (to deliver passengers / cargo). After telling them they need to be in a trader vessel to do so, they often complain and go "Oh my god, all the way from *KPR* to *Baracoa* for nothing.

I do think this really discourages new players. And I keep seeing it happen in Help Chat. There should be some sort of a warning message when taking passenger / cargo missions. I bet there are a few captains which left the game straight after realizing they had sailed all the way for nothing (and perhaps left a negative review?)

Edited January 15, 2020 by Liq

[The Geth]

23 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

I have read several negative steam reviews that talks about the lack of a proper tutorial or tips for the activities outside the battle instance.

This is absolutely a spot worth improving. There is practically no instruction on the open world experience.

[GrubbyZebra]

11 hours ago, Liq said:

Didn't exactly know where to put it so posting it here.

Keep seeing lots of new players asking in help chat whether or not they could enter enemy ports (to deliver passengers / cargo). After telling them they need to be in a trader vessel to do so, they often complain and go "Oh my god, all the way from *KPR* to *Baracoa* for nothing.

I do think this really discourages new players. And I keep seeing it happen in Help Chat. There should be some sort of a warning message when taking passenger / cargo missions. I bet there are a few captains which left the game straight after realizing they had sailed all the way for nothing (and perhaps left a negative review?)

For the cargo runs, they should reaslise this fairly easily as the cargo weighs 800t (which won't fit on low rank non-trader ships, or even a tlynx)

but generally, the basic cutter should also be able to enter enemy ports, at least for low ranked players. 

[Sea Archer]

38 minutes ago, GrubbyZebra said:

For the cargo runs, they should reaslise this fairly easily as the cargo weighs 800t (which won't fit on low rank non-trader ships, or even a tlynx)

but generally, the basic cutter should also be able to enter enemy ports, at least for low ranked players. 

I disagree, the basic cutter is a warship somehow and should therefore not be able to enter enemy ports. They are too often used for reconnaissance, if they can escape in enemy towns, it would be too much.

A better explanation how economy missions work, that only traders can enter enemy ports would be a nice thing. It should be written in the mission text.

[GrubbyZebra]

2 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

I disagree, the basic cutter is a warship somehow and should therefore not be able to enter enemy ports. They are too often used for reconnaissance, if they can escape in enemy towns, it would be too much.

You could limit the "smuggler flag" on the cutter to rank 1 only if you were worried about spies, although, tbh, a higher ranked player spying won't really care to much if he enters the town on a trader or a basic cutter. A basic cutter being able to enter or leave an enemy town doesn't really change that aspect of the game, so that particular argument against it doesn't really make much sense.

Quote

A better explanation how economy missions work, that only traders can enter enemy ports would be a nice thing. It should be written in the mission text.

we already have this more or less in the little "tips" box that is on by default for new players in port, it doesn't solve the problem of the player not having a trader or the means to obtain one from the start of the game. Personally, I remember hitting "leave dock" and "enter port", with a bit of sailing around KPR harbour, for the first 15 minutes or so when I just purchased the game. I wanted to sail, and I wanted a purpose to start me off in the sandbox. The delivery missions did just that, but I couldn't figure out how to get a ship to do them on for a time (I actually logged off that first day after about 30 minutes of aimless fiddling, I took to google to find out I had to capture and NPC trader, and that was frustratingly difficult).

So why not make the ship the player does have able to function like a trader (a very limited one, they can't attack other players, and can't join battles)? This way, should the player so desire, they can sign up, log in, grab a mission, and complete it without having to do any additional reading or training. Beats spending 2 hours with the tutorial and first exam just to fail and be in the exact same starting position as your first experience with the game. 

The point is this: the game is slow and has a steep learning curve, so giving new players an actual taste of being involved in the OW, at least, from the start can go a long way towards helping retention and enjoyment. If that means changing some of the functionality of the basic cutter, so be it (it still won't hold the cargo for a delivery mission, all you could do is take a passenger somewhere).

[GrubbyZebra]

14 hours ago, The Geth said:

This is absolutely a spot worth improving. There is practically no instruction on the open world experience.

There is the Tips pull down that new players get in the top right corner of the port window that explains the basics of trading and the economy, among other things.

[HamBlower]

3 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

I disagree, the basic cutter is a warship somehow and should therefore not be able to enter enemy ports. They are too often used for reconnaissance, if they can escape in enemy towns, it would be too much.

A better explanation how economy missions work, that only traders can enter enemy ports would be a nice thing. It should be written in the mission text.

Maybe a clear Information in ShipLog would help the newbies. Something like: "You're vessel is a war ship you can't enter closed enemy ports" and "You're vessel is a trading ship you can enter every port"  

[Earl of Grey]

16 hours ago, Liq said:

Didn't exactly know where to put it so posting it here.

Keep seeing lots of new players asking in help chat whether or not they could enter enemy ports (to deliver passengers / cargo). After telling them they need to be in a trader vessel to do so, they often complain and go "Oh my god, all the way from *KPR* to *Baracoa* for nothing.

I do think this really discourages new players. And I keep seeing it happen in Help Chat. There should be some sort of a warning message when taking passenger / cargo missions. I bet there are a few captains which left the game straight after realizing they had sailed all the way for nothing (and perhaps left a negative review?)

Imho a player who gives up playing because he sailed 30 min for nothing is not the kind of player NA needs 😁

If he dont give up because of this little waste of time because you give him some big tutorial or warning message He will Just quit playing after first ship sink or first sank by loki or what ever ...

[GrubbyZebra]

16 hours ago, Earl of Grey said:

Imho a player who gives up playing because he sailed 30 min for nothing is not the kind of player NA needs 😁

If he dont give up because of this little waste of time because you give him some big tutorial or warning message He will Just quit playing after first ship sink or first sank by loki or what ever ...

Not because he wasted a little bit of time, but because he paid for a game that provided virtually no initial direction to get started, thus the player did not find purpose within the game and moved on. The only reason I tried again was because I paid full price, but had I gotten it on sale, I probably never would have given it a second thought, which is sad, because I have literally played thousands of hours since, sailing to literally every part of the map, and general thoroughly enjoying myself (even the more frustrating parts like getting pwned off Saint Nicolas 3 times in a row, once in my Mercury, then two more times by the same player in my newly acquired basic cutter I was sailing home in). 

You can condescend all you want, but it is simply a question of perceived value. If I pay $20 or $40 or $1 for a thing, I have a certain expectation as to what I will get from that thing (quality, service, enjoyment, whatever is appropriate). In terms of a game, if a player pays money and spend 30 minutes or an hour in the game without ever getting any sort of clear indication of how to actually play (not the tutorials which teach mechanics of battle, or the tips which give a broad overview of the game itself) like is found with the mission system (I would contend this is a primary reason missions exist to begin with), then the expectation of enjoyment is likely not met and the player is likely to move on to something else, or possibly ask for a refund (which is happening, apparently). The exams are hard (which is fine), which is another source of initial frustration to a new player, because they have no frame of reference for the appropriateness of that difficulty (they likely view it as another part of the tutorial, which it is not) , and there is no mechanism by which to actually accomplish the missions without going out into OW and capturing a ship, then what is there incentive to stick around? As far as they can tell, they have likely bought an unplayable game (an impression which a lot of the steam reviews will unfortunately reinforce).

That said, there are several possible solutions:

1. Make the basic cutter a trade ship. With its prohibition on attacking other players, entering player battles, and limited hold capacity, its usefulness is limited in this regard to anybody but new players. If you wanted to ensure this new classification would not be abused by experienced players, code a rank-dependent smuggler flag that would be permanently turned off once reaching rank 2. The advantage to this proposal is it is a quick and dirty solution that would require minimal development resources. The disadvantage to this proposal is that it doesn't address the underlying lack of initial direction. 
    
2. Make additional in-game tool-tips for new player to give a guided experience during rank 1 play:
   • Direct the player to the tutorials to learn basic battle mechanics (and possible even through the first 3 exams).
   • Upon completion of that task, have them accept a mission to capture an NPC trader in Open World (this would need to be added as a mission type limited to 1 completion only)
   • Then direct them to Open World to capture said trader by highlighting the "leave port" button and the target ship. 
   • Once they capture the trader and return to port with it, direct them to accept a passenger delivery mission.
   • Once they complete that mission, the initial tutorial is over, as the player has now been exposed to the basics of the game (aside from crafting).
     
     The advantage of this proposal is that it provides a much richer new player experience that will give a basic understanding of combat, Open World, trading, and the mission system. The disadvantage is that it would require significantly more development resources to implement.
      
3. Do nothing and leave people to fend for themselves

[Never]

@GrubbyZebra You know there is a 'tips' message/window that pops up when someone gets started as a new player? So saying there's no direction is pretty dramatic. Most of the basic aspects of the game are explained there. Plus this is 2020, so there's this thing called the internet and discord and reddit and youtube, etc. Usually with any game I play I take a look around everywhere and get some tips and ideas of how to get going, it's not just for NA. The game doesn't have to hold you hand and tell you how to do absolutely every little thing. 

But to please the people that feel the fresh NA noobies are super fragile, a new player experience/system is already announced for this year and it's part of one of the upcoming updates. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Never

[GrubbyZebra]

4 hours ago, Never said:

@GrubbyZebra You know there is a 'tips' message/window that pops up when someone gets started as a new player? So saying there's no direction is pretty dramatic. Most of the basic aspects of the game are explained there. Plus this is 2020, so there's this thing called the internet and discord and reddit and youtube, etc. Usually with any game I play I take a look around everywhere and get some tips and ideas of how to get going, it's not just for NA. The game doesn't have to hold you hand and tell you how to do absolutely every little thing. 

But to please the people that feel the fresh NA noobies are super fragile, a new player experience/system is already announced for this year and it's part of one of the upcoming updates. 

No, I didn't know that. Must be why I've mentioned in my last 2 or 3 posts.

As for "the internet and discord and reddit and youtube, etc", well, a) you should not expect or encourage players to leave the game to find information, as this is just a bad model for retention, and b) discord requires you know where on discord to look for information.

I'm not talking about the game doing "every little thing", I am talking about the game providing a more thorough new player experience.

And where did I say people are super fragile? I'm simply providing suggestions for how to make improvements to the trading game specifically as it relates to a day-one player. Or are the only ideas allowed ones you agree with?

[admin]

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money. Is it true? How is it broken?  Is it really really broken?

[Beeekonda]

12 minutes ago, admin said:

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money) 25 mln per run. Is it true? How is it broken? 

San Agustin - 9.6 mil in taxes

Nouvelle-Orleans - 15.1 mil in taxes

Vera Cruz - 11.6 mil in taxes

Santiago de Cuba - 9.7 mil in taxes

Caracas - 9.7 mil in taxes 

Considering the taxes are set to 10% (highest) we can see that yesterday players have earned 96 mil + 151 mil + 116 mil + 97 mil + 97 mil = 557,000,000 reals. ONE DAY. Before taxes ofc. Only top 5 ports btw, not including all other ports.

I don't do trade runs myself, but from my understanding you just buy stuff from one port at one end of the map and sail it down to another part of the map.

 

PS: WTB Means of Directing Fire for 1mil - LT/TUMBADO I'm poor please help

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Beeekonda

[Never]

18 minutes ago, admin said:

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money) 25 mln per run. Is it true? How is it broken? 

No, not 25m per run. That might be for the players that have 6 or 10 alts and trade with all of them in convoy at once. 

But you can make around 1m+ in profit for 20 minutes of sailing with 3 indiaman. But it is possible to make over 100m a week for someone with some alts and enough free time, pretty easy. 

[Georg Fromm]

1 hour ago, admin said:

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money) 25 mln per run. Is it true? How is it broken? 

Someone wants to make himself important, or he uses at the same time 3-4 alt chars or it is a bug.

 

With Madagascar Jewels and 1 account, the highest profit margin is around 6 million.

4 Indiamen ( Fleet Control Perk 2) with 160 Madagascar Jewels (I don't know of any more expensive goods) :

Buy (North Inlet, 10124 per Jewel x 160)  1619840 Reals

Sell today (Soto la Marina, 46402 per Jewel x160) : 7424320 Reals

No taxes included.

 

Of course, using alt-chars I can push the win of a run to infinity. Or a great bug....and everyone uses it because they have no punishments to expect. Maybe same procedure as every year.

If you want to have a functioning economy somehow, you have to stop using alt-chars. Otherwise, people with enough computing power, a liitle bit of money and enough time will bring any economy to collapse (by the way, this is not a special problem of NA).

Another possible solution would be a trading system that confront traders with new challenges every day. If I have to find the cheapest trading routes every day, if I have to reorganize my trading fleets every day, it will surely take away some people's ability to make money in a simple way.

Or you learn form Conquerors Blade.... no trade directly between players possible. In other words, kill the economy and the trade. The problem is, you are losing a player segment (the Trader), which is more likely than other players to acquire Alt Chars, which is ultimately income for you.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Georg Fromm

[Malcolm3]

25 minutes ago, admin said:

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money. Is it true? How is it broken?  Is it really really broken?

Well, it's just inflation, because players earn too much money. As a result prices of modules (and not only of them), especially top ones rised considerably - FX Copper Plating were sold at 600-800k reals, now that module is selling at 1.5 mil or even more.

[Beeekonda]

Trading over 9.999mil is becoming a normal thing now.

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Beeekonda

[The Geth]

1 hour ago, admin said:

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money. Is it true? How is it broken?  Is it really really broken?

So, I have to ask... do you guys play your own game? Like, seriously, there was already talk of inflation when I returned to the game 2 months ago. This is not a new development, by any means.

Maybe now you can understand why seasoned woods are so controversial. With the economy the way it is, single logs go for tens of thousands of reals. It's impossibly expensive for most players; only the super-wealthy multiple alt-wielding players will ever be able to afford enough seasoned wood to craft a ship.

I'm not the first one to point this out, but I hope I'm among the last before a fix is implemented. Please, please look into this matter. The game will fare much better for it.

[BoatyMcBoatFace]

I think admin should just nerf the 1% of the players with 20 alts stalking all ports buying up stuff around the clock. Trading isnt broken. PPL exploiting it are however.

 

The majority of players are actually hurting for money, hence why they are complaining of the increasing prices (because we already have reports of certain alts inflating prices and buying everything up in terms of resources and upgrades because this way they get to control the market)

[Never]

10 minutes ago, BoatyMcBoatFace said:

I think admin should just nerf the 1% of the players with 20 alts stalking all ports buying up stuff around the clock. Trading isnt broken. PPL exploiting it are however.

 

The majority of players are actually hurting for money, hence why they are complaining of the increasing prices (because we already have reports of certain alts inflating prices and buying everything up in terms of resources and upgrades because this way they get to control the market)

It is broken because there is no limit to how much you can do it, as long as you have more time you can keep cashing in with no control. Usually most well thought out MMOs limit how much a player can conduct specific activities as to keep some measure of control how much/many rewards each player can obtain in given amount of time from a specific activity. Say there was a limit to doing 1 trade run per week per account. Or you could get permits for trading same as for towing, 3 trade run permits a day and you have a max pool of 10. 

But it is a problem in itself that the game has massive focus on economy while having a oversimplified economic system. I think the simpler it is do something in the game the easier you make it for people to exploit it. Log in click two buttons and you cash in, if you were actually required to make an effort playing the game to obtain rewards from a system then it would be much harder to exploit it. 

There's multiple issues with trading as it is, the fact that it can be done while afk and pretty much you can 'bot' trade is probably the biggest issue. Usually any activity that requires very little to no attention from the player is not meant to be very rewarding. It would be better if trading required the player to actively engage with the game and it was limited in some way. Then it could be as rewarding as anyone wanted. 

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

3 hours ago, admin said:

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money. Is it true? How is it broken?  Is it really really broken?

I made some runs the last frew days and I'm getting something like 1-2 million for a long sail and the same back so your looking at like 3 hours of game time to make 2-3 million.  And that is even if I have decent cargo.  Most of the stuff is all ready bought and traded by time I get home from work so I normally have to buy little here and there for a day or two before I can make a run.  So I don't know who's making all the millions but I got a feeling it's not the US prime playing guys as I heard the same complaint from others market is strip by time they get online to play.

[The Geth]

38 minutes ago, JG14_Cuzn said:

It’s not broken.   It’s working.

Kudos for not allowing contracts to be placed on tradable goods. 
As for the price of upgrades/books/ships: it’s basic economics.   Yes prices are inflated, and if you’re not making bank with the current Econ system you’re doing it all wrong. 
The economy is NOT broken. 

You forgot the /s, fam.

[Never]

54 minutes ago, JG14_Cuzn said:

It’s not broken.   It’s working.

Kudos for not allowing contracts to be placed on tradable goods. 
As for the price of upgrades/books/ships: it’s basic economics.   Yes prices are inflated, and if you’re not making bank with the current Econ system you’re doing it all wrong. 
The economy is NOT broken. 

The problem is not people not making money but that they're making too much too fast. At this rate we are all going to be billionaires.

[Earl of Grey]

The currency is not reals, its playtime. So there is no Inflation. I think the playtime you have to "work" to buy you a copper plating (f.e.) is almost the same. Beside this basic ressources got cheaper in relation to the playtime you need to afford them, and that helps new and poor Players.

Dont Listen to this idiotic whiners that only see that the nominal real prices doubled!

TRADE IS FINE 

(But stick to your plans spicing up the trade with special deals that have to be found ... )

And pls hurry with the implemention of small privateer fleets, so small groups and single players can Farm the seasoned woods too ...