Trading Explained - Feedback welcome

[z4ys]

Problems are ...

• a consuming port that is already stocked high with the same good still pays the price for that good as it would have nothing in stock
• High stocked goods in a trading port get consumed to fast.

An example (without considering alts that would make it even easier). I can buy coconuts in Port A (Those respawn within 30mins) So I can even stockpile them and wait a bit till my hold is full of coconuts and I can do maybe 2 or 3 runs. And because its just a few mins sail between producing and consuming port its a safe sail.

Everytime I sell my coconuts to port B I get the same price regardless if i have flooded the market there with coconuts or not. I always get the 3,5 times more than the buy price. And this is just with low profit goods.

 

Suggestion:

• Pls limit consumption rate of ports. Let trading limit itself.
• Add diminishing returns back in for selling goods

Edited January 18, 2020 by z4ys

[Conte D. Catellani]

Is the respawn time of the goods 30 minutes or is also part of the example? 

[Malcolm3]

6 minutes ago, Conte D. Catellani said:

Is the respawn time of the goods 30 minutes or is also part of the example? 

It depends on type of goods, respawn time of more expensive goods is longer

[Conte D. Catellani]

3 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

It depends on type of goods, respawn time of more expensive goods is longer

Many thanks 

[z4ys]

2 hours ago, Conte D. Catellani said:

Is the respawn time of the goods 30 minutes or is also part of the example? 

 

1 hour ago, Malcolm3 said:

It depends on type of goods, respawn time of more expensive goods is longer

As pointed out by @Malcolm3 the respawn time depends on the goods. Coconuts are a cheap trading good. But because of of the high availability and short trading routes even with the low cost goods its possible to print money.

An other example:

Those coconuts/livestock are produced in a shallow water port. So it would only be possible to get 17 per ship out of town (not taking hold opti perk into account). I am working together with a friend but it can even be done with an alt.

What I do...

• I have an outpost at the producing port (shallow).
• I stockpile goods
• I have 4 tbrigs
• I load every tbrig with 17 goods
• I sail to the shallow water border

What my friend does....

• Is waiting with 4 indiamans at the shallow water border
• I give him one by one a stack of 17 goods till his indiamans are full
• He starts sailing to to 5mins away port that consumes the goods
• He makes for every item 3.5 times profit

We repeat that a few times and done millions without any high risk. Because we are even guarded by our coastal defense.

We flooded the marked in the conusming town with our goods but still get 3.5 times the profit

Edited January 18, 2020 by z4ys

[Georg Fromm]

2 hours ago, z4ys said:

Problems are ...

• a consuming port that is already stocked high with the same good still pays the price for that good as it would have nothing in stock
• High stocked goods in a trading port get consumed to fast.

An example (without considering alts that would make it even easier). I can buy coconuts in Port A (Those respawn within 30mins) So I can even stockpile them and wait a bit till my hold is full of coconuts and I can do maybe 2 or 3 runs. And because its just a few mins sail between producing and consuming port its a safe sail.

Everytime I sell my coconuts to port B I get the same price regardless if i have flooded the market there with coconuts or not. I always get the 3,5 times more than the buy price. And this is just with low profit goods.

 

Suggestion:

• Pls limit consumption rate of ports. Let trading limit itself.

By the way, there was a time in NA when the price adjusted dynamically. Back then, you couldn't sell everything at once. With each sale of a subset, the prices for the next quantity decreased. This mechanism also worked when shopping, only that the price increased due to the shortage of goods. Why the Devs removed this good mechanic from the game will probably remain a secret forever.

[SnovaZdorowa]

11 hours ago, admin said:

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money. Is it true? How is it broken?  Is it really really broken?

Судя по росту цен на модули - да, приток реалов увеличен весьма значительно.

Суда по собственным субъективным ощущениям (куда не заедешь - везде шаром покати на рынке) основные бенефициары этой системы игроки, которые в кучу окон мониторят порты (как руками, так и в полуавтоматическом режиме) и скупают все профитное по к/д. Чем-то там стоящим затариться человеку с коротким онлайном и одним акком имхо нереально. Находят какие-то ниши, как вон выше писали, но потом сталкиваются с новыми ценами на пвп расходник, которые раздуты игроками с профитом х10.

В общем, игра реально сыпет реалов из воздуха, все пытаются приделать дно к закромам родины. Кто-то удачнее, кто-то нет, но факт остается фактом, рынки по закупке пустые, в портах потребления видно поступление товара сотнями. Может эксплойт какой-то...

А игра как бы в релизе, и что Вы будете делать с этими стомиллиоными акками?

Как починить? Вот основной тезис:
В игре про морские сражения профит игроков должен генерироваться из морских сражений, а не из жмаканья на рефреш рынка в порту и перевозок в 2 и более окон.
Как реализовать - ну как-то непросто, просто рычажки тут не подвигать. Чтобы получить профитный товар игрок должен что-то сделать. Пример комплексного подхода:
у игрока в каждом порту стэндинг.
чем выше стэндинг, тем больше профитного товара можешь выкупать или получать с миссий.
хочешь вози сам, хочешь ставь контракты на продажу.
гринд нпц в радиусе порта - стэндинг растет средне
выполнение миссий в порту - стэндинг растет чуть-чуть, т.к. это безопаснее
успешное пвп по защите родных вод - стэндинг растет адски
стэндинг постепенно падает
если в радиусе порта топят игроков своей нации - стэндинг падает быстрее 
само присутствие противника в радиусе видимости порта это потеря стэндинга

Настроить такую систему непросто, но баланс это всегда сложно, а баланс залог хорошего геймплея. Возможно, что можно как-то проще сделать, но принцип простой:

пустому полу-афк аккаунту, который не появляется в море (и не генерит контент остальным игрокам) порт ничего не продаст. клану владельца порта и их друзьям бонусы (но не халява)

Как при этом продавать людям твинков - а вот я не знаю. Хорошо если будет какой-то маааленький такой сбалансированный дроп в аутпостах, привязанный к акку, а не к порту. Хочешь больше - развивай акк, прокачивай стэндинг.

Edited January 18, 2020 by SnovaZdorowa

[Liq]

Short answer: yes

[Suppenkelle]

12 hours ago, admin said:

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money. Is it true? How is it broken?  Is it really really broken?

Yes and no. 
The change in trading led to a steep increase of income. This is good because more people are actually trading = more prey = more hunters in ow. 

But in the wake of the new trading mechanics everybody is rich now and we see prices in shops rising steeply too: Copper Plating was about 300k before and I have now seen it offered for 2mil, nearly 7fold. Prices are still increasing. 

Compared to that earning doubloons was left almost unchanged. Cargo missions even dropped by 20% (800 instead of 1000). So, in effect it is much easier now to earn reals than to earn doubloons. This probably is what feels broken on PvE server. 
 

It might be fixed on the PvE server, if deemed necessary, by adding a fixed rate of exchange in admirality store. (I remember  you stating once that an exchange rate of 1:8 was the goal currently it is 1:450)

[Liq]

45 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Are those common or rare goods? Was a long run or a short one? How long does it take you to buy all those goods in the first place?

If you have someone sitting in that port that keeps buying them it actually does not take that long anymore since trading goods drop got increased. trip was long range but safe

[Georg Fromm]

2 hours ago, Liq said:

Short answer: yes

And what is that supposed to tell us? For the sale of the 487 Mosaic alone, 13 Indians are needed for transportation. It is difficult to do this with a (one) trade run. However, if you use 1 char + 4 alt chars, then it may work.
And then we're still not talking about profit, just the selling price. Somehow not particularly helpful.

Thank you for showing sales notes.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Georg Fromm

[Liq]

 

4 minutes ago, Georg Fromm said:

And what is that supposed to tell us? For the sale of the 487 Mosaic alone, 13 Indians are needed for transportation. It is difficult to do this with a trade run. However, if you use 1 char + 4 alt chars, then it may work.
And then we're still not talking about profit, just the selling price. Somehow not particularly helpful.

Thank you for showing sales notes.

it's supposed to tell us inflation will be crazy again

[Earl of Grey]

3 hours ago, Georg Fromm said:

By the way, there was a time in NA when the price adjusted dynamically. Back then, you couldn't sell everything at once. With each sale of a subset, the prices for the next quantity decreased. This mechanism also worked when shopping, only that the price increased due to the shortage of goods. Why the Devs removed this good mechanic from the game will probably remain a secret forever.

Because devs wanted people to sail and not sitting in ports and waiting for port raising prices again?

Every reducing drop-rate or consumption-rate is only buffing Hardcoreplayers (they have the Alts that will Always sit in harbour and wait for next drop/consumptio). 

[Teutonic]

21 hours ago, admin said:

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money. Is it true? How is it broken?  Is it really really broken?

 

15 hours ago, JG14_Cuzn said:

It’s not broken.   It’s working.

Kudos for not allowing contracts to be placed on tradable goods. 
As for the price of upgrades/books/ships: it’s basic economics.   Yes prices are inflated, and if you’re not making bank with the current Econ system you’re doing it all wrong. 
The economy is NOT broken. 

I agree it is working.

The entire argument I originally had was that a casual (2 hours or less daily) was not able to make enough money during their play session, while ships, materials, and goods were sold at such a high price.

Now with the trade good change I have seen more folks enjoying the game, more folks able to get what they want without too much trouble, and frankly we aren't scrapping by like we used to.

 

The hardcore players that had the alts and time to play didn't think it was a problem which is untrue.

The broken aspect was that trade goods were worse than cargo delivery missions and we only ever did those missions. Now? Everyone is enjoying making cash, port owners are happy because they are making money, pvpers are happy because there are more targets in the OW.

Heck even RvR players are happy because they see a reaspn to continue to expand their empire.

If there is anything to complain about, it is that passenger and cargo missions seem redundent to trade goods. I would suggest that they become primarily doubloon rewards.

Now everyone is trading nonstop to make money to.....never use it?

Majority of players are doing 1 to 2 trade routes a week to supply their enjoyment of the game for the rest of that week.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Teutonic

[Teutonic]

17 minutes ago, Liq said:

 

it's supposed to tell us inflation will be crazy again

The fact that you will always make more money then 1 player doing trading versus your very own "fleet," shouldn't be the reason to nerf prices.

You will make more money than anyone in any environment.

But the 1 player will suffer more with less profit.

Eve has the same "issue," everything that would help tye small groups or solo folks, will always help the large groups more. That's just how it goes.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Teutonic

[GrubbyZebra]

14 hours ago, admin said:

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money. Is it true? How is it broken?  Is it really really broken?

@admin, It is not broken, it is working: 

• There are many traders out on the water due to the high ROI (1 run can net a few million, which means more time for other in-game activities), which provides more targets for PvP.
• The high income means ships are more disposable (who cares if you lose a 500k or 1m ship when you can earn twice that without even thinking about it).
• Not having contracts on trade goods is frustrating for some players, but makes the trading game far more equitable for all.
• The staggered, psuedo-random, gradual drop times of trade goods means the market is not cornered by those on right after reset. (I am just as likely to get a high-profit item at 10PM as 8AM, and even then, I f I buy out the shop, there may well be more of that item 20 minutes after I leave port).
• Having all county capitals as consumers of some items means that while I can invest several hours to make long-distance sails for high profits (maximum sale price can require a 4-5 hour sail), I don't have to do so (i can sail for less than an hour and make 1/3 or 1/2 as much profit, which can still be several times higher than I paid for the item). 

Compared to trading before, I find the current game far more enjoyable.

[Gregory Rainsborough]

17 hours ago, admin said:

Captains. We got reports that trading is broken (too much money. Is it true? How is it broken?  Is it really really broken?

No, it's working just fine.

[Gregory Rainsborough]

The only thing I think that could be considered broken is LGV hold size. It holds the same as a tbrig, but cannot go through shallows and while it is more capable of getting rid of people, an Indiaman does the job even better. Maybe increase the hold size by another 1000?

[Earl of Grey]

One thought: maybe we should increase the risk for the highest profit trade goods:

Example:

NOW: buy at 10.000 reales, sell 30.000

Future: buy at 40.000 reales, sell at 60.000

Profit is the same (ok some more taxes), but risk is much higher ...

Make this only for the high profit routes, so the "small shore Trader" dont get affected ...

 

[BoatyMcBoatFace]

15 hours ago, Never said:

It is broken because there is no limit to how much you can do it, as long as you have more time you can keep cashing in with no control. Usually most well thought out MMOs limit how much a player can conduct specific activities as to keep some measure of control how much/many rewards each player can obtain in given amount of time from a specific activity. Say there was a limit to doing 1 trade run per week per account. Or you could get permits for trading same as for towing, 3 trade run permits a day and you have a max pool of 10. 

But it is a problem in itself that the game has massive focus on economy while having a oversimplified economic system. I think the simpler it is do something in the game the easier you make it for people to exploit it. Log in click two buttons and you cash in, if you were actually required to make an effort playing the game to obtain rewards from a system then it would be much harder to exploit it. 

There's multiple issues with trading as it is, the fact that it can be done while afk and pretty much you can 'bot' trade is probably the biggest issue. Usually any activity that requires very little to no attention from the player is not meant to be very rewarding. It would be better if trading required the player to actively engage with the game and it was limited in some way. Then it could be as rewarding as anyone wanted. 

 

By that logic, lets put a limit on many players you can kill, how many ships you can build, how many labor contracts you  can utilize in a day.. lets put limits on everything. 

 

Truth is, if somebody wants to run trade 24/7 yes they will rake in money. Just like somebody who goes and kills people 24/7 will get lots of those rewards.  

 

Trading is a requirement to be able to afford to do things in the game. It is not really a zero effort move as already talked about. Resources have to be stalked, fleets prepared, making the trip without getting sunk... I am not sure what nation you are in but there are massive trading losses daily. Many "pvp gods" literally only go for traders all day long. 

[GrubbyZebra]

5 hours ago, Earl of Grey said:

One thought: maybe we should increase the risk for the highest profit trade goods:

Example:

NOW: buy at 10.000 reales, sell 30.000

Future: buy at 40.000 reales, sell at 60.000

Profit is the same (ok some more taxes), but risk is much higher ...

Make this only for the high profit routes, so the "small shore Trader" dont get affected ...

 

that would actually lower the ROI for those goods, on the fence as to whether or not that would be desirable...

[Never]

6 hours ago, BoatyMcBoatFace said:

By that logic, lets put a limit on many players you can kill, how many ships you can build, how many labor contracts you  can utilize in a day.. lets put limits on everything. 

 

Truth is, if somebody wants to run trade 24/7 yes they will rake in money. Just like somebody who goes and kills people 24/7 will get lots of those rewards.  

 

Trading is a requirement to be able to afford to do things in the game. It is not really a zero effort move as already talked about. Resources have to be stalked, fleets prepared, making the trip without getting sunk... I am not sure what nation you are in but there are massive trading losses daily. Many "pvp gods" literally only go for traders all day long. 

Those other things aren't currently having any adverse effect on the game though, so you're not making much of a point with that argument. If you were trying to argue from a logical standpoint, you missed the mark. Killing players actually requires effort, you can't do it with a bot like activity. I have completed 100 million worth of trade in profit in the last few weeks and not once has any of my fleets been attacked, much less lost anything. 

It might not be zero effort, but the rewards are far greater than the effort required to obtain them. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Never

[The Geth]

2 hours ago, Never said:

Those other things aren't currently having any adverse effect on the game though, so you're not making much of a point with that argument. If you were trying to argue from a logical standpoint, you missed the mark. Killing players actually requires effort, you can't do it with a bot like activity. I have completed 100 million worth of trade in profit in the last few weeks and not once has any of my fleets been attacked, much less lost anything. 

It might not be zero effort, but the rewards are far greater than the effort required to obtain them. 

This isn't the case for every nation, though. Smaller nations have a damned hard time of trading in bulk without being targeted. If your nation is large enough to own ports on both sides of the Gulf of Mexico, and populous enough to provide impromptu escorts aplenty in those waters, how could that possibly compare to some poor, lonely fellow trying to run a gauntlet of 3-4 enemy nations in the Windward Passage?

Edited January 19, 2020 by The Geth

[BoatyMcBoatFace]

8 hours ago, Never said:

Those other things aren't currently having any adverse effect on the game though, so you're not making much of a point with that argument. If you were trying to argue from a logical standpoint, you missed the mark. Killing players actually requires effort, you can't do it with a bot like activity. I have completed 100 million worth of trade in profit in the last few weeks and not once has any of my fleets been attacked, much less lost anything. 

It might not be zero effort, but the rewards are far greater than the effort required to obtain them. 

Im not sure if you are even playing the game or even trading at all..... because i can guarantee you, it hardly is a 0 effort thing. In fact, it is a full day's literal work. And then you end up blowing all the days work on a ship and the mods you put on it. I didnt make 10m today but i spent 10m. 

 

If i cant fund my gameplay i simply will not play. I suppose people are happy with how brutally deserted was in mid 2018 and are eagerly trying to push it back into that ditch! 

[Sea Fox]

Trading isn't broke but it is a problem.......as the only true pirate in the game let me explain......

Traders and trade ships are like fat sheep, wondering around the map getting fatter and fatter. Trading needs to stay the way it is instead, incentivise the wolves of the game!

The plan is to do what the dev's have always done so brilliantly with naval action and follow history!

1) fix trade ships or bring back smugglers flag so that hunting in foreign waters is easier. 

2) bring back tow to port in battles instance option for captured ships (trade ships only). Make capping a trade ship worth more than combat marks

3) make trade ship sinks be worth half or zero combat Mark's

4) implement more trade ships, trade Niagara? Trader Essex? Make LGV (which is useless ship) an LGVR. Make indiaman refit. 

All in all make traders a HUGE target in game....this will prompt escorts and encourage pvp.  Did you know that when I started hunting traders in south America 100% of all indiaman my little tsnow came across was unarmed! Both the main and the fleet!! Now almost all of them are because they got tired of me taking their shit! Also I'm seeing more folks sail a war ship as main with indiaman in fleet. 

So don't "fix" trading, make them earn their money, make them have clanmates escort them. This will stop the afk sailing and slow the billionaire progression.  Hell if someone ask me to escort them for 1mil I'd do it!

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Sea Fox