Small group/clan content: Port Raids + Poll

[Vernon Merrill]

The first question we need to answer is:  

 Admin, What is the actual purpose of the "Raid" concept?

Since us EU prime-time forum watchers generally get first crack at catching the devs ears, I figure it would be beneficial to know exactly WHO they're trying to target with this mechanic.

Is it the "off-hours" players who basically get locked out of conquest-type content?

Is it "small-clans" who have few options to go up against the mega-clans in traditional PB's?

Because each one of these groups would need different mechanics.

 

But there is ONE VERY IMPORTANT mechanic that needs to be implemented so that "Raids" don't turn into an utter &^@*-show of salt:

THE CLAN DOING THE RAIDING MUST REMAIN ANONYMOUS UNLESS IT IS ACTUALLY DEFENDED BY PLAYERS OF THE CLAN BEING RAIDED.

If you are a small clan, what is the point of raiding if you know that you will just be curb-stomped into oblivion for "daring to attack your masters"???

Edited May 7, 2019 by Vernon Merrill

[Botq]

I dont understand to some people. The title clearly says that it could be content for small groups and yet there are people who want it to be PVP and They want it to be like PB. I think in such small scale (like 5v5) its only about skill, so there would be no chance for "casuals", i think raid should be hit and run and its up to the nation to catch the raiders

[Guest]

Only for pirates please 

[Gregory Rainsborough]

1 hour ago, admin said:

Do not think so
The smaller the engagement the higher is the importance of skill, knowledge and fleet composition. If raid is for next day you can provide screens + best players for 5v5. You either do not get to the raid event or lose against top pros. 

If raid is for today, not only small clan can find the defender distracted, but also sneak in without the ability to react (as defenders will have to find you and catch you to take the loot back)

Let's use some real clans as examples. BASTD, largest GB clan, could just go along a coast raiding. Small clan can't defend against that and neither can nation mobilise quickly to defend it. Smaller clans will just get steamrolled by larger ones if the benefits are so large as to incentivise it.

Most of the time there are screen it's true, but that's because there's the loss of a potential national port at stake. I don't think anyone except the owning clan will bother defending in that case since other clans have nothing to lose.

To strike a balance I would suggest two things, that it be one clan against another, so only the clan owning the port can defend it and the opposing clan attacking it. Set it not as a port battle but as shrinking circle kind of thing like the patrol zone. The rewards should not be as you've described. They are far too harsh on the defending clan and not balanced at all. Instead reward the raiding clan with the worth of the taxes collected from the port the previous day and have the amount deducted from the owning clan's clan warehouse plus maybe a couple of chests  or something. Give people after the battle the chance of teleporting back to port after the battle.

This will have the effect of incentivising raiding but only raiding of the richest targets, those that can most afford it will be most impacted. It will also contribute to the frontline mechanics you're trying to create. Clans cannot take ports all over the map without being at risk forcing clans to locate their ports in one area or another.

 

 

[Bragan Benigaris]

6 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

If you are a small clan, what is the point of raiding if you know that you will just be curb-stomped into oblivion for "daring to attack your masters"???

Well, as a clever raider i wouldn't raid my close neighbour - especially if i own a port in his vicinity. And always thought retribution of a powerful nation (Spain, UK) is an occupational hazard for every raider/rover/pirate historically ... 😜

[Angus MacDuff]

We should all know what will happen if its up to the players (PVP) to defend against a raid.  The attacking group will know when a clan is usually off line and that is when they will attack.  It has to be a combo of AI and players in defence and frankly, I see particular groups being victimized in this.  Think very carefully on how to not let this get poisonous.  

[Gregory Rainsborough]

9 minutes ago, El Patron said:

Only for pirates please 

Completely agree, make it something that only pirates can do. They need a mechanic that differentiates them from other nations.

[Manbot]

Just now, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Completely agree, make it something that only pirates can do. They need a mechanic that differentiates them from other nations.

every nation needs a "flavor" of their own in my opinion- their all the same atm 

[Bragan Benigaris]

8 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Set it not as a port battle but as shrinking circle kind of thing like the patrol zone.

 

 

What exactly would be the benefit of this? I really, really don't like it and imho if using small ships as a raider it denies them their biggest advantage, their maneuverability.

[Teutonic]

If a BR limit had to be made it should be between 1,000 - 1,500.

[Dragonfire]

Maybe I am wrong but all I see coming from this is massive abuse and a whole shit storm of complaints.

Might of worked before alts were introduced and I like the concept of it but the introduced mechanics of op ships being crafted by "mostly" larger clans only and veteran elite players in those larger clans pretty much all owning said ships how are smaller or micro clans getting their ports raided constantly by alts and elite players going to make the game more enjoyable.

Being forced to join into a larger clan is not an option for a lot of players due to preference or time zones.

It was seen yesterday a larger more op nation attacking a port with paid for defences not being defended because it was cheaper to lose the port and the defences than fighting against op ships you don't have. Cost to replace larger ships for a smaller clan player base is way too high along with the defences and now the introduction of larger clans constantly raiding those clans of resources to try to compete in the first place is questionable.

If it is to force everyone into just a large clan to minimise losses and be able to play the game with some enjoyment your going to lose a lot more players.

No smaller players and clans that are going to be constantly hammered by large nations ,alts ,elite players and exploiters raiding them are going to put up with that for long till the game becomes unplayable for them and they either create a shit storm of protest, complaints or just leave.

Maybe I am wrong but I see it coming.

 

[Bragan Benigaris]

7 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Raids must happen only in the timer window.

Raids is a event to encourage pvp, not another pve mission.

With all due respect, i disagree.

A raid is asymmetric warfare and usually raiding parties don't wait, till the guard is awake 🙂

And it could be rather lucrative for raider-hunter in different timezones to intercept the raiding parties with their loot (if Plan B is implemented). It could be an incentive for clan cooperation, a national effort (Coast Guard). You could give the raided port owner the loot back (to win his favor) or keep it, together with all political implications...

[captain smile]

Option A is cool , but why 5v5 ?  in our clan we have 10 connected members and I guess they will all like to participate .

Also It will be good to give the defenders a small advantage like : more BR , more number of ships ( instead of 5vs5 a 5vs7 etc...)

 

[Sven Silberbart]

26 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

We should all know what will happen if its up to the players (PVP) to defend against a raid.  The attacking group will know when a clan is usually off line and that is when they will attack.  It has to be a combo of AI and players in defence and frankly, I see particular groups being victimized in this.  Think very carefully on how to not let this get poisonous.  

Static Timers..

 

[Prince of Wales]

2 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

What is the purpose of a pvp event when the other side is not attending???

The post raid pvp where ANY nation coupd come along and fight for the loot, as admin said it would be announced on server, as such you would be able to expect people to come along to try and grab the loot in the same manner when people find out about 1st rate missions they try to fight for the chests

[Teutonic]

1 minute ago, Knight Stalin said:

The post raid pvp where ANY nation coupd come along and fight for the loot, as admin said it would be announced on server, as such you would be able to expect people to come along to try and grab the loot in the same manner when people find out about 1st rate missions they try to fight for the chests

Adding on to this.

I'd much rather have loot be rare resources than just more victory marks.

When I am wanting to raid a port I want the resources that are there - not the doubloons, victory marks, or tools.

[Bragan Benigaris]

14 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

Adding on to this.

I'd much rather have loot be rare resources than just more victory marks.

When I am wanting to raid a port I want the resources that are there - not the doubloons, victory marks, or tools.

Yeah, same here. It would awesome to catch teak, lo, copper AND the tax chest (reals) and get away 😈

[Njord]

Definitely option B. Small player groups and clans need more power and big clans less. Big clans already have too much power only through their numbers alone, disregarding individual player skill or lack thereof completely.

[Cmdr RideZ]

Remove PvE from all plans. Forcing PvE for PvP players is a bad idea. You can do separated PvE content. The game is way too much about gear these days that I suppose it does not matter what I say.

A is good but as you already made ship building to be "big clans only", you made it much more difficult for small clans to be in competitive 5v5.
B because it gives a surprise change for small clans that don't own a port. If you really think this through, how can small clans defend vs something like this? Their port will be raided every night multiple times. Have you thought how a small clan can transport goods? They wont ever survive the trip, big clans will have zergs waiting them to exit.

Now going back to "Lets do content for small clans", you really don't think the big picture. If you want to take small clans in the game then change your port investments to support small clans and friend groups. Small groups need competitive ships to do this stuff.

There were years ago small competitive PvP clans. They all quit. There are no reasons to now think small clans. You have to change so many things you broke that probably not worth it any more.

Both ideas are pretty bad for small clans especially now after your massive port bonuses. I have told you many times that your big bonus fixation is bad for the game. It is still bad for the game.

If you want small clan pvp, then start looking back to history when small competitive PvP clans sailed the seas. As you are not going to do it, it is better to continue making content for big clans only.

[RyebreadMike]

First of all I don't believe any raid system should be a part of the RVR.  The defending port should not lose a large amount (if any) of its investments, and there should be a limit to how often a port can be raided.

Secondly, the raiders should be compensated for a successful raid regardless of whether or not they make it back to home port. Like one or two ships with the port's bonuses to share amongst the raiding group, or some other prize. This would get more smaller groups/clans/nations involved in the raiding system.

Like others here, I believe that unless this new mechanic is handled very carefully, it will end very badly.  Too many players seem to enjoy ruining the game for others so ANY way a new system/mechanic can be exploited to grief others WILL be put into use.

[Barbarosa]

Timeflow:

1. Attacker buys a flag from any national port. (to avoid basic cutter scouting right from the beginning, flag cost resources to avoid spam)
2. Rumours about the plan start spreading. The flag is announced to Nation or whole server (if you want everyone seeking fun to join.) The targeted port is unknown for defender, only the nation to be attacked is known.  Every port of that nation can be a target. 
3. The flag cannot be removed from the port for coming 20 min, giving time for others to prepare for fun.
4. After 20 min, attackers can take the flag and leave the port. An announcement will be made that a raiding fleet set sails to attack an X nation port. 
5. After 10 minutes, rumours will spread about the county name the possible raid has been launched. regardless of the attacker leave timer. Sooner they leave better for them to be undetected.
6. Attackers will have 30 min to plant the flag. The route they took is up to them. Yet the target is unknown. Do not worry about it. Not every port is worth raiding. Let some raid very unexpected ports for low-profit while others try to raid Cartaghena. There is no problem of raiding very close enemy ports either, that will serve to the creation of frontiers.
7. Planting the flag will take 5 minutes standing stationary, allowing defenders to attack and interrupt. 
8. As soon as the flag is planted loot menu will appear like deadman chest. The attacker will need to bring it to any national port. No needless AI fighting.
9. The defenders can intercept prior to or after the raid.
10. The chest will contain the 20% tax income of the port from the previous day (to be extracted from future income) + some extra goodies. If anyone else managed to cap back the chest, goodies will be deleted and only tax amount will stay to avoid abuse.
11. Deadman chest is heavy so you need to bring traders with you. Traders will serve to avoid fast ships abuse ect. protecting, capturing traders will be a priority.

Rules:

1. Max group size 6. 1 being a trader. Trader as a fleet might be allowed or let's try fighting traders?
2. Max ship lvl allowed to the attacker is 4th rate.
3. No limits for defenders. (Finally remove the stupidly high bonuses/wood difference to not see fir/fir Victories catching every 5th rate. Without correction of idiotic bonuses nothing will work in this game.)

I am at work and can not write more detailed. But this will give lots of content for everyone I guess.

EDIT: More restrictions or rules you add will only serve to another failure implementation. Keep it basic, simple, let it flow. It is raiding, keep it open, stop restricting everything to force your vision. Let players decide how to approach it. We don't need circles, AI battles, OW is enough. Whatever makes you sail is good. Stop approaching everything as a lobby instance.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Barbarosa

[Bragan Benigaris]

Perhaps we should differentiate the term "raid" - is it raid in the sense of the military with commando missions to destroy vital infrastructure of the enemy or is it raid in the sense of the privateers and pirates to gather ressources and wealth. I for myself discuss about the latter one

1st: I wouldn't touch the investments, instead i would give the raider a percentage of the produced goods and the tax chest (or a percentage of it) and this only the first raiding party. Poor ports, less loot, rich port, magnificent loot, but only once.

2nd: Raiders gain, raiders risk - let them keep the XP and the money from the Elite AI, but otherwise they are prey till they are back home.

 

[AeRoTR]

Concept to loot, Concept for small pvp. 

Raids will be geat if implemented right. 

Make it simple. 

Circles for looting, and circles for evacuation. Everthing happens and finishes in battle instance, no OW needed. 

1. A raid, so 5th or 4th maximum. 5 ships and 1000 BR is the limit for raiders. 1500 BR and 7 ships for defenders. (may be better ideas?) 

2. It is a raid so there should be loot chests . Chests 100 t.  250 t. So you have to run with the chests. Heavy chest better loot, heavy loot slower speed. More chest, you are slower.

*** Bring traders for loot, heavy escorts, your choice, faster ships for small loot your choice. Problem is tlynx and lrq team, what non-dlc ship can catch? May be tylnx is not allowed in raids? 

***smaller chest chest weights of minimum 300t. only? Big chest 1000 t.? 

4. Battle instance, small circles around town near coast, raider gets in the circle and stops, not moving for 30 seconds, he can loot chests. After looting run to the circle of evacuation. 2 circle of evac., 2 random circles very far away form town, attackers activate one after looting, when activated few minutes later evac circle is also revealed for defenders. 

5. Any raider reaching circle, can escape the battle with loot. Very long invisibilty timer in OW. 

*** Go get the loot. Decide what and how you can carry, escape the raid. Defenders let none to escape. Do not need to loot, as smaller ships or traders will come after battle to retrieve the stolen cargo, but some floating cargo will be lost if raiders get sunk. 

*** All happens in battle instance. Let it finish in battle instance in about 1 hour, quick fun, quick pvp, nice loot. 

*** Only defenders can be port owner and friends list. Port owner selects slots for joining enable only clan or some slots for friends. 

*** Defenders can join battle instance after a set amount ıf time, some upper hand for raiders. 

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by AeRoTR

[Manbot]

Admin I think their are 2 major things that needs to be accounted for before implementing the raid system:

1 that the system cannot be exploited by the use of alts or any other means to Remove hard earned work in investments in ports. The reward for a raid should be enough that it’s worth doing but not too overpowered where a port losses VM or investments. 

I think the tax system suggest might b a way to go or you could also allow for sabotage to buildings as a clan may say make a farm unusable for 24hrs.

 

2 that the system is fun, spontaneous and not too complicated. That a player can log on get couple of friends and go raid- I think the flag system might be a way to go to imitate a raid. I think the raid should be announced when the flag arrives to the port in a manner where it’s not exact- for example “ north of Cuba is being raided!”.

the system should make it easier for the defenders to win only once they figure where the attack is and the attackers have the advantage of suprise. 

I think it’s also important that the mechanic isn’t too hard to understand so that newer and less experience player can help defend/ attack- a good system might be a circle where very point earned while in that circle correlated to a % of loot. ( similar to the pb point system) but in ow- this mechanic has been used by other online games where the more you stay the more your reward but also the more likely the enemy will show up.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Manbot

[Bragan Benigaris]

6 hours ago, admin said:

 

 

Why not implement both with different goals and purposes?

Option A: Strategic raid (military action)

Goal: Deny enemy his vm, get them and some cms for valorous action for yourself

Make limits higher, 8 vs 8 and only during port timer

Option B: Ressource raid (robbery)

Goal: get ressources and money for yourself

Only small ships/br and 24/7, doesn't damage the port investions

Edit: Sorry, i'm currently on phone, could elaborate more later

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bragan Benigaris