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Small group/clan content: Port Raids + Poll

Raid polls  

264 members have voted

  1. 1. Raids - do we need them

    • Yes - Raids are great
      231
    • No - Raids are not needed
      33
  2. 2. Implementation

    • Raids like port battles - preparation today, raid tomorrow at a set up time - favors larger clans and defenders.
      49
    • Raids like missions - everything today when you have time - Favors smaller clans and attackers
      215


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Remove PvE from all plans. Forcing PvE for PvP players is a bad idea. You can do separated PvE content. The game is way too much about gear these days that I suppose it does not matter what I say.

A is good but as you already made ship building to be "big clans only", you made it much more difficult for small clans to be in competitive 5v5.
B because it gives a surprise change for small clans that don't own a port. If you really think this through, how can small clans defend vs something like this? Their port will be raided every night multiple times. Have you thought how a small clan can transport goods? They wont ever survive the trip, big clans will have zergs waiting them to exit.

Now going back to "Lets do content for small clans", you really don't think the big picture. If you want to take small clans in the game then change your port investments to support small clans and friend groups. Small groups need competitive ships to do this stuff.

There were years ago small competitive PvP clans. They all quit. There are no reasons to now think small clans. You have to change so many things you broke that probably not worth it any more.

Both ideas are pretty bad for small clans especially now after your massive port bonuses. I have told you many times that your big bonus fixation is bad for the game. It is still bad for the game.

If you want small clan pvp, then start looking back to history when small competitive PvP clans sailed the seas. As you are not going to do it, it is better to continue making content for big clans only.

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First of all I don't believe any raid system should be a part of the RVR.  The defending port should not lose a large amount (if any) of its investments, and there should be a limit to how often a port can be raided.

Secondly, the raiders should be compensated for a successful raid regardless of whether or not they make it back to home port. Like one or two ships with the port's bonuses to share amongst the raiding group, or some other prize. This would get more smaller groups/clans/nations involved in the raiding system.

Like others here, I believe that unless this new mechanic is handled very carefully, it will end very badly.  Too many players seem to enjoy ruining the game for others so ANY way a new system/mechanic can be exploited to grief others WILL be put into use.

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Timeflow:

  1. Attacker buys a flag from any national port. (to avoid basic cutter scouting right from the beginning, flag cost resources to avoid spam)
  2. Rumours about the plan start spreading. The flag is announced to Nation or whole server (if you want everyone seeking fun to join.) The targeted port is unknown for defender, only the nation to be attacked is known.  Every port of that nation can be a target. 
  3. The flag cannot be removed from the port for coming 20 min, giving time for others to prepare for fun.
  4. After 20 min, attackers can take the flag and leave the port. An announcement will be made that a raiding fleet set sails to attack an X nation port. 
  5. After 10 minutes, rumours will spread about the county name the possible raid has been launched. regardless of the attacker leave timer. Sooner they leave better for them to be undetected.
  6. Attackers will have 30 min to plant the flag. The route they took is up to them. Yet the target is unknown. Do not worry about it. Not every port is worth raiding. Let some raid very unexpected ports for low-profit while others try to raid Cartaghena. There is no problem of raiding very close enemy ports either, that will serve to the creation of frontiers.
  7. Planting the flag will take 5 minutes standing stationary, allowing defenders to attack and interrupt. 
  8. As soon as the flag is planted loot menu will appear like deadman chest. The attacker will need to bring it to any national port. No needless AI fighting.
  9. The defenders can intercept prior to or after the raid.
  10. The chest will contain the 20% tax income of the port from the previous day (to be extracted from future income) + some extra goodies. If anyone else managed to cap back the chest, goodies will be deleted and only tax amount will stay to avoid abuse.
  11. Deadman chest is heavy so you need to bring traders with you. Traders will serve to avoid fast ships abuse ect. protecting, capturing traders will be a priority.

Rules:

  1. Max group size 6. 1 being a trader. Trader as a fleet might be allowed or let's try fighting traders?
  2. Max ship lvl allowed to the attacker is 4th rate.
  3. No limits for defenders. (Finally remove the stupidly high bonuses/wood difference to not see fir/fir Victories catching every 5th rate. Without correction of idiotic bonuses nothing will work in this game.)

I am at work and can not write more detailed. But this will give lots of content for everyone I guess.

EDIT: More restrictions or rules you add will only serve to another failure implementation. Keep it basic, simple, let it flow. It is raiding, keep it open, stop restricting everything to force your vision. Let players decide how to approach it. We don't need circles, AI battles, OW is enough. Whatever makes you sail is good. Stop approaching everything as a lobby instance.

Edited by Barbarosa
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Perhaps we should differentiate the term "raid" - is it raid in the sense of the military with commando missions to destroy vital infrastructure of the enemy or is it raid in the sense of the privateers and pirates to gather ressources and wealth. I for myself discuss about the latter one

1st: I wouldn't touch the investments, instead i would give the raider a percentage of the produced goods and the tax chest (or a percentage of it) and this only the first raiding party. Poor ports, less loot, rich port, magnificent loot, but only once.

2nd: Raiders gain, raiders risk - let them keep the XP and the money from the Elite AI, but otherwise they are prey till they are back home.

 

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Concept to loot, Concept for small pvp. 

Raids will be geat if implemented right. 

Make it simple. 

Circles for looting, and circles for evacuation. Everthing happens and finishes in battle instance, no OW needed. 

1. A raid, so 5th or 4th maximum. 5 ships and 1000 BR is the limit for raiders. 1500 BR and 7 ships for defenders. (may be better ideas?) 

2. It is a raid so there should be loot chests . Chests 100 t.  250 t. So you have to run with the chests. Heavy chest better loot, heavy loot slower speed. More chest, you are slower.

*** Bring traders for loot, heavy escorts, your choice, faster ships for small loot your choice. Problem is tlynx and lrq team, what non-dlc ship can catch? May be tylnx is not allowed in raids? 

***smaller chest chest weights of minimum 300t. only? Big chest 1000 t.? 

4. Battle instance, small circles around town near coast, raider gets in the circle and stops, not moving for 30 seconds, he can loot chests. After looting run to the circle of evacuation. 2 circle of evac., 2 random circles very far away form town, attackers activate one after looting, when activated few minutes later evac circle is also revealed for defenders. 

5. Any raider reaching circle, can escape the battle with loot. Very long invisibilty timer in OW. 

*** Go get the loot. Decide what and how you can carry, escape the raid. Defenders let none to escape. Do not need to loot, as smaller ships or traders will come after battle to retrieve the stolen cargo, but some floating cargo will be lost if raiders get sunk. 

*** All happens in battle instance. Let it finish in battle instance in about 1 hour, quick fun, quick pvp, nice loot. 

*** Only defenders can be port owner and friends list. Port owner selects slots for joining enable only clan or some slots for friends. 

*** Defenders can join battle instance after a set amount ıf time, some upper hand for raiders. 

 

Edited by AeRoTR
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Admin I think their are 2 major things that needs to be accounted for before implementing the raid system:

1 that the system cannot be exploited by the use of alts or any other means to Remove hard earned work in investments in ports. The reward for a raid should be enough that it’s worth doing but not too overpowered where a port losses VM or investments. 

I think the tax system suggest might b a way to go or you could also allow for sabotage to buildings as a clan may say make a farm unusable for 24hrs.

 

2 that the system is fun, spontaneous and not too complicated. That a player can log on get couple of friends and go raid- I think the flag system might be a way to go to imitate a raid. I think the raid should be announced when the flag arrives to the port in a manner where it’s not exact- for example “ north of Cuba is being raided!”.

the system should make it easier for the defenders to win only once they figure where the attack is and the attackers have the advantage of suprise. 

I think it’s also important that the mechanic isn’t too hard to understand so that newer and less experience player can help defend/ attack- a good system might be a circle where very point earned while in that circle correlated to a % of loot. ( similar to the pb point system) but in ow- this mechanic has been used by other online games where the more you stay the more your reward but also the more likely the enemy will show up.

Edited by Manbot

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6 hours ago, admin said:

 

 

Why not implement both with different goals and purposes?

Option A: Strategic raid (military action)

Goal: Deny enemy his vm, get them and some cms for valorous action for yourself

Make limits higher, 8 vs 8 and only during port timer

Option B: Ressource raid (robbery)

Goal: get ressources and money for yourself

Only small ships/br and 24/7, doesn't damage the port investions

Edit: Sorry, i'm currently on phone, could elaborate more later

Edited by Bragan Benigaris

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53 minutes ago, Barbarosa said:

Timeflow:

  1. Attacker buys a flag from any national port. (to avoid basic cutter scouting right from the beginning, flag cost resources to avoid spam)
  2. Rumours about the plan start spreading. The flag is announced to Nation or whole server (if you want everyone seeking fun to join.) The targeted port is unknown for defender, only the nation to be attacked is known.  Every port of that nation can be a target. 
  3. The flag cannot be removed from the port for coming 20 min, giving time for others to prepare for fun.
  4. After 20 min, attackers can take the flag and leave the port. An announcement will be made that a raiding fleet set sails to attack an X nation port. 
  5. After 10 minutes, rumours will spread about the county name the possible raid has been launched. regardless of the attacker leave timer. Sooner they leave better for them to be undetected.
  6. Attackers will have 30 min to plant the flag. The route they took is up to them. Yet the target is unknown. Do not worry about it. Not every port is worth raiding. Let some raid very unexpected ports for low-profit while others try to raid Cartaghena. There is no problem of raiding very close enemy ports either, that will serve to the creation of frontiers.
  7. Planting the flag will take 5 minutes standing stationary, allowing defenders to attack and interrupt. 
  8. As soon as the flag is planted loot menu will appear like deadman chest. The attacker will need to bring it to any national port. No needless AI fighting.
  9. The defenders can intercept prior to or after the raid.
  10. The chest will contain the 20% tax income of the port from the previous day (to be extracted from future income) + some extra goodies. If anyone else managed to cap back the chest, goodies will be deleted and only tax amount will stay to avoid abuse.
  11. Deadman chest is heavy so you need to bring traders with you. Traders will serve to avoid fast ships abuse ect. protecting, capturing traders will be a priority.

Rules:

  1. Max group size 6. 1 being a trader. Trader as a fleet might be allowed or let's try fighting traders?
  2. Max ship lvl allowed to the attacker is 4th rate.
  3. No limits for defenders. (Finally remove the stupidly high bonuses/wood difference to not see fir/fir Victories catching every 5th rate. Without correction of idiotic bonuses nothing will work in this game.)

I am at work and can not write more detailed. But this will give lots of content for everyone I guess.

EDIT: More restrictions or rules you add will only serve to another failure implementation. Keep it basic, simple, let it flow. It is raiding, keep it open, stop restricting everything to force your vision. Let players decide how to approach it. We don't need circles, AI battles, OW is enough. Whatever makes you sail is good. Stop approaching everything as a lobby instance.

Excellent post.  +1

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I like the concept of trying to figure out a way to have content for smaller clans . . . but i have a few concerns.

First, what is stopping a larger clan with say 10 or 15 great players from taking 1, 2, or 3 raids.  Or just peeling off 5 of their players to run raids whilst others do day to day PvP and seal clubbing.

For me, this "smaller" clan benefit is just opening a door for a larger clan to have more seal clubbing opportunities

Second, this could create a war of attrition for the smaller clan nations or weaker nations if the elite larger nations/clan can basically come  up to their door and wear down the smaller clans/nations assets.  

I think we all know there are folks in this game that like to use exploits and stretch things that were designed for another reason, so why open another Pandora's box?

If you want to have raids that would only give chests and rewards, but nothing or very little from the port, then that might help. 

But in the end we DO NOT want to add content that will make the strong stronger.  

 

 

Edited by Yehoodi
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Just keep one major thing in mind, if it becomes easier for a clan to lose stuff than build it, than players will stop building up ports.

Small clans will retreat to the capital areas and give up on the idea of building up a port for the bonuses. 

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option B is the best option, its better for smaller groups of players and small clans and will basically create a second type of port battle that can be called when people want to fight and not later this is good for regular players and people who don't like the politics and frontlines.

having a flag that you need to bring to a city to announce a raid is also a very good idea, I can still remember the great battles I and my clan/ nation got while using or countering this mechanic. basically, if option b is chosen a raid will hopefully bring more action and interesting situations to NA and will tempt some regular players to come back to the game.

however, there is 1 issue, after the raid is completed the loot should not be capturable or only half of it so that a big nation cant just gank a smaller nation that is raiding, perhaps a special slot on ships should be created in which players can put the loot that they think is most valuable so after the raid is successful the attackers did the whole raid for nothing. there is also the other side of the story, for instance, I could also imagine that a raiding nation would not go into the raid without backup from there allies and the attacking nation should think of battle plans and what to do when the defending nation just blockades the port and waits for the raiders to go back home with there loot.

also, it wasn't fully clear to me if the attacking nation is only battling against elite NPCs, I would prefer to fight players and only if the attackers lack players the slots will be filled with NPC after a few minutes as in reinforces. 

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My only wish for a raid technique is that the raid-affected clans can not completely take away their resources.
If there are no restrictions, it may be more than clear that large clans consider this an invitation to permanently raid small nations or clans. A certain amount of resources should always be secure from access.

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A few comments:

Raids should be limited to 3rd rates max with a max br. 

Should allow up to 10 players to participate subject to br.

If raiding party wins, they get to use crafting facilities (ie. virtual shipyard with all port bonuses) or harvest from farms for 24hrs and defenders (if they lose) denied use of same.  Farms would be set to full.  Port would be like enemy port if defenders loose but without use of fort. 

Raids should be same day with 1 hour notice of location.  Flag system is great. Raids should be during port timer.

Fortifications can help defenders but like in pvp not affected.

If raiding party successful, they get VM of that port for the week and defenders lose VM for that port for the week.

Raiding party gets gold chest and doubloons as reward.

Flag should cost doubloons with price high enough to discourage fake flags.

RNG port investment (ie. 4 port inv points) gets destroyed partially destroyed (ie. for farm - requires another 100 - 200 tools etc.)

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The system I have in mind is complex but serves to enforce these principles:

  • Raids are oriented towards a county.
  • A group buys a raid "landing" ship for a particular county from the conquest missions.
  • This ship is a shabby Indiaman for deeps, or a shabby Trader Brig for shallows, and is filled with provisions and weapons (max-filled == slow)
  • The attacking group with no fixed size or BR must escort one or more landing ships to the county of interest. As soon as the landing ship comes within sight of any of that nation's friendly AI or ports a Combat News post of a rumored raid on that County is generated.
  • The landing ship captain can click on any port within the target County and generate a raid battle instance. This battle instance looks much like a port battle instance but all joiners, both attackers and defenders, must join outside the bigger circle.
  • Once joined the attackers must escort the landing ship to one of three landing locations where it must remain sails down for 10 minutes. These landing zones may be protected by port fortifications so mortar brigs may be necessary to take them out and protect them.
  • Once 10 minutes have elapsed the landing ship(s) holds will be replaced with goods from the port, doubloons, combat medals, and must exit the battle and be escorted home. 
    • Rewards should be scaled by the amount of time since the last successful raid on a port, visible by clicking on the port.
  • A successful raid will result in 1/3 of the port income, per successful landing, of that port for the day to be placed in a chest of the landing ship captain and removed from the port income for that day.
  • The battle remains open the entire time on for both sides up to let's say one half of the BR of the port's port battle.
  • For anyone participating in the battle on either side, reals, xp, and combat medals (in the hold) are received as rewards, thus encouraging all nation players to respond to raids

Such a system could seem fine, but this will result in permanent erasing of small nations by big ones, which only can set-up large scale raids on a county. Small nation, if they can make it by surprise, will be unable to take back the loot in safe waters. Big nation will make raid after raid on "vulnerable" nations, making weak nations weaker, strong nations stronger, erasing the player base of small nations in a  few weeks. Remember, players always go to easy targets!

Harassed nations, losing their goods several times a week will become strictly unplayable. Their players will leave first, except perhaps the players having alts somewhere in another strong nationfor crafting and ship building. Players of big nations will then whine because of useless raids giving nothing relevant.

Other thing: doubloons, medals and marks are normally not in warehouses but in captain chests. So, not in loot, unless there is a clan Warehouse there. But for sure, if raids are implemented, all that stuff will be safely stored out of warehouses.

I voted "yes" to Raid implementation, but the system must be adapted, capped and limited, unless small nations will go to no possible development. In real life, that was the case, but in a game, the risk is "game over".

Edited by Aquillas
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9 hours ago, admin said:

 

+1 if we get raids and stormy weather 😉

Edited by Sir "The Lorax" John
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3 hours ago, Barbarosa said:

snip

 

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

snip

Judging by the voting so far looks like option B is the most popular. I would like to see Raids be separate content with more instant action rather than just a mini PB. There have been a lot of good suggestions as well as some concerns for exploits so far. @Wraith and @Barbarosa had  some detailed suggestions for mechanics. I like the idea that a raid is picked up for a county and the port is not revealed until the raid is there and starting.

Here are some considerations:

·        Raids should be limited to raiders like frigates and small line ships by BR or hard limit. (One concern is that a fleet responding after the battle is not restricted).

·        Raid missions should have limited availability to avoid spamming a county or nation. A port should have a cool down timer after a raid as well.

·        Raids should not be restricted by port timers. This is balanced by the defenders having many opportunities to intercept the raid and the lower cost of losing, ie; not losing the port.

·        Rewards should scale to port size and costs for the port owner not overly punitive, but enough for a response.

·        Raids should be PVP. The question is whether to have bots if no players show up to defend the raid. Would it be disappointing to have an empty battle with no players or bots? The raiders could come out and face a defending fleet while trying to get the loot back to homeport. Again lots of opportunity to defend and generate PVP.

·        Defenders should be anyone from that nation not just the owning clan or clan on the friends list.

·        Forts should be destructable. The goal for Raiding may be to degrade port defenses for a full PB later. But repairing a damaged fort should not be nearly as costly as building one!!

 

I think we should test a PVP only version first and only add bots if necessary. PVE server gets bots ofc. Looking forward to patch.

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Admin Definitely B, Mechanics similar to RDR2, works well and I personally tested it. It will create 3 groups of players. Defenders, Attackers and scavengers (privs). Scavengers will hunt the attackers.

Time to add new privateer Branch? maybe...

Limit raid on the same port to once every 7 days. Mark that port on the map with Fire icon and add smoke animation when entering port. Homes are on fire, fire bells are ringing - chaos. 

I would mark the attacker who picked up the documents and loot on the world map and they should be visible to every one. Not players , but package location. This will bring pvp to Raid locations big time. 

Reputation patch would be great and would even more help with pvp.

-Friendly and Hostile Reputation meter. 

-Successful Raid repel would add Friendly rep. to all who participated in PB. 

-Successful Raid attack would add Hostile rep. to all who participated in PB. 

Friendly/Hostile rep levels open new Missions: 

100rep - Mission 1(reward x), 1000rep - Mission - 2(reward x), 10000rep - Mission - 3(reward x +Hostile/Friendly Logo Free Flag ) etc..

Keep things open to public, so they know where action takes place.

 

 

Good luck. 

Edited by Audacious
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Wraith, Sorry if I misunderstand your post. What I fear is a combination of Admin proposal ("Enemy loses 15% of the port investments in that port") Knowing that you propose a total reward of 30% for attackers, I do think that my remark is still viable, the risks being:

  • Players always going to the easiest targets, the risk is that small nations will be harassed several times a Week, preventing them to conquests, because being too busy every day, defending against daily raids.
  • Easy to set three raids to a small nation, if they flip one of your ports yesterday evening… Raids must not be a counter measure to RvR.
  • Protection against defense set by attacker alts to be set-up (this would exclude small clans and independent players from raid defence if defence is limited to the defending clan and friend clans). See the rapid exploit of the "frontier war".

I still do think that harassment protection of small nations is to be placed.

Edited by Aquillas
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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Thank you Admin, this type of content is greatly needed and I'm glad it's finally being given consideration. Unfortunately I don't think either of the options as presented accomplishes what it could. I would urge you to think about designing a system that accomplishes the following overarching goals: A system that is instant-action for anyone logging in and joining up with friends/clan/nation-mates; a mechanic that does not require PvE grind but offers up potential for PvP action; finally, a system that encourages full nation participation, not limited to friendly clans or imposes arbitrary limits on the size of fights generated through BR or other types of RoE gimmicks.

I didn't quote your whole post but it is an excellent suggestion

 

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I said nothing about a clan's warehouse being raided.

This is a very important point.  My only concern is that the common use of alts gives an opportunity for spying on ports and giving information on when a port will be at it's weakest defence level.

 

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Raids battles can only be started, however, on ports with an open timer, thus encouraging clans to keep timers on important ports, and encouraging large clans who own County Capitals to get smaller clans to invest in port timers and protect the other ports within counties.

Timer costs would have to come way down, I would think.

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YES! Finally! How long have we've been asking for this? Anyway, great idea. Nothing is required except that they are in fact instant actions. That's exactly what this game lacks is something 5-10 people online at the same time can quickly co-ordinate and do without putting off time for tomorrow. This on a RVR scale is something to do any time of day, which means you will finally be rewarded for being online with near endless callings for offensive/defensive raid missions. There is always at least 5 or 10 people online per nation during slow hours so this will not fail and succumb to the timer issues which holds regular rvr back.

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17 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Maybe, but I think we want more raids, more PvP-generating opportunities than not right?  And especially with the preponderance of timer-dodging going on I think having a mechanism via raids to make that even more costly would be a nice positive feedback loop?

How would driving up the cost a clan/nation has to spend each day be a benefit? The only thing that would occur is that some ports would be released to go neutral before the valuable ports are given up on. Neutral ports help the pvp side and further hinder the trader side. So your raids would become even less of an option as more and more ports are turned neutral. You need to look at the long term effects of certain actions. Increase the cost too much and you will see a very negative effect follow.

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This may have been said already, but put a cap on the damage you can do! This can help avoid situations where larger countries nuke small countries into the stone age with constant raids. Time between raids should be perhaps two days.

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