Battle system core ruleset discussion

[Crimson Sunrise]

3 hours ago, admin said:

It's a grey area.
There is no formal rules that do not allow attacking a player, shooting and running. Because they are based on initial core design elements built around instanced battles.  
But these core design elements cause such frustrations and problems that are not good for the long term of the game. 
Before the release the decision must be made about those core systems and here are the options.

Current ruleset is based on these ideologies

• I want to attack someone and people far away must not enter = "i must be able to sink you solo if i want to"
• I want to be able to sink a 1st rate in a cutter (old heated topic). 
• I want to be able to run away if i want to (because my ship is fast)
• I do not want a player from far to join my battle, because its mine. 

If the goals is to increase pvp these ideologies can be rethought or abandoned as they dont increase an amount of pvp. 

• Problem 1 - inability to help your own.
  • The common message from rookies in national chats are well known - "I got attacked near XXX port - please help if you can" or "I see enemy ships - lets tag them - come help"… 
  • Usual answer in chat - silence and "tough luck" - as you CANT. I think its time to accept the fact that distance based ROE is bad and is reducing pvp and only helps solo hunters (which based on data are a huge minority).  
  • This is a problem because we know that pvp assists has 100% of correlation with retention. If you dont participate in group activities you drop from the game 10x faster.  
• Problem 1.1 part of lack of group pvp
  • There is actually not enough ganking (hold on and bear with me).  For accounts created in December: Only 5% of players have pvp assists and only 1% of players have more than 10 pvp assists. 
  • Again the problem because assist increase retention
• Problem 2 Speed
  • Fast ship controls the OW pvp, and heavy battle ready ships do not have anything to counter against the gank even if they outnumber enemies in guns.
• Problem 3 combat ready ship balance - described by OP in the post.
  • When line ship is fighting 3 fast frigates to win the lineship must not make a single mistake
  • When 3 fast frigates fight the lineship they can always run away if they make a mistake

 

So why dont we just rework those ideologies from scratch and focus them on the main goal - increase pvp and group pvp per hour for all (not only solo hunter in a speed fitted frigate). 

Examples of clear solutions solving the problems and increasing meaningful pvp on the WAR server

• This is a war server. Why escape options? Whats the point? If you attacked - fight!
  • Patrol rules for the whole world. Circle of death.
  • If you are ready to attack someone - be ready to die and fight to the end. 
  • Sure some will cry about it  - tough luck like they say in national chats - but it will keep only meaningful pvp.
• Battle is always open for the weaker side 
  • This is a war server - this is a pvp game with the goal to increase amount of pvp for all. There is no point to close the battle for the weaker side. Let them escalate. This becomes the goal. 
  • Then you can come to help your own, and know someone will come to help.
  • Then you can build more friendships and get assists 
  • Then you will stumble to more battles and will have more pvp kills per hour. 

Basically.

• When improving ROE - Remove all features from ROE that reduce pvp per hour. Add features that grow the pvp per hour. 
• Ignore the cries like "but tumbado is 3000km away".
• Check only one parameter when determining the outcome of changes - number of PVP battles per hour and number of assists.
• Ignore the rest.
   

This will also solve the problem described in the post (with the move to weight systems because with proper broadside weight - prince will die in 1 min). 
 

PS
Current number for War server for accounts created in December
1 pvp kill every 8 hours in game per pvp engaged player. 
1 pvp kill every 24 hours in game total for the server
 

if were going to go with this is a war server then why does the peace server allow u to cap 1st rates and keep them from the ai yet a war server u cant cap anything above a 5th rate from an ai and keep it. it makes no sense, sure the market might get flooded with a bunch of 1st rates but they will be like any other ship capped from the ai (wood type) (crew space)  (random refit)  its not going to make the whole first rate problem better but it will make more sense. this is a war server everything should be capable and u get to keep what u cap. 

[Hethwill]

Yes of course. Was never against that, actually i hoped it would be included. Musketry at 100m ranges is a must have. Very age of sail.

but, regarding the OP subject...

... too many solos. And that's by choice and NOT because they may or may not enter battles.

Funny how gamers can be "anti social" and refuse to spend time with others.

And I don't mean voice comms. Players can sail with each other and do hunt, search and destroy, and eventually bump into enemies while not using voice at all.

[Licinio Chiavari]

7 minutes ago, Chevalier du Ethuville said:

That's why we should test broadside weight asap. But i fear too many sols...

beauty and the beast...

Yes. And partly nay.

We can start making higher pd gun doing far higher damage, still not making a 42 pd hitting 4+ times more than a 9. I see a first step better moving 42 to 2+ times a 9... So almost doubling 1st rate damage output. And 3rd rates increase around 50%.

Then double 1st/2nd rates HPs. And approx +50% for 3rd rates.

Then, VERY IMPORTANT, rebalance mast hp and even better, all demasting: I will never repeat enough that aiming directly to mast with balls should be not possible/not really effective... IF ship has no rigging (=sail) damage.

Then we should evaluate to reduce all ships nimbleness. Especially for bigger stuff. Not forgetting to nerf/rework/higher realism all sailing profiles.

Then adding more shallows of different depth, giving less room to a only SOL game and more to lighter shipping.

And then making a 3rd rate costing like 4+ frigates, a 2nd like 4 3rd rates and a 1st rate like 2 2nd... Just if we do not want to add "maintaineance" costs for ships.

And then, finally, look how this would work.

 

[Licinio Chiavari]

11 minutes ago, Chevalier du Ethuville said:

Yes of course. Was never against that, actually i hoped it would be included. 

but, regarding the OP subject...

... too many solos. And that's by choice and NOT because they may or may not enter battles.

Funny how gamers can be "anti social".

NA players are older than medium PC gamer. So with different RL issues and timing. Being a loner helps playing when possible not being bound to a group timetable.

After heavy raiding in WoW for years... I assure you. Big groups timetables are a pain.

[Hethwill]

*sigh*...

One broadside from el gamo messed up the entire rigging of the speedy. That's what I expect to happen if you go hug a constitution in your xebec. I expect worse if i go hug a LGV in my privateer.

The game does not present you the entire rigging system lines and shrouds and block, hence the damage abstractly represents a lot of it.

I expect the weight of shot to do what is expected, especially to the soft parts. 

...

I have no clue about mmos man, but i know multiplayer a group starts with 2 player playing together. 

[Licinio Chiavari]

17 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

We should test that and solutions like musket fire against hugging and a buff of the useless brace command.

I promise you I was able to rake a first rate in a 6th rate with carros (grape loaded) and kill 160 guys in just one broadside. That is not normal.

Hit 190+ with Requin 9pd on (crew shocked) Santissima...

Rake should be highly effective... Still... Granted the low risk for a skilled Hercules getting behind a subpar 1st rate... We end up with our gameplay.

Not to speak, again, that boarding is far more viable against a far bigger target (because you can brutally decrew him) than against a similar one...

[admin]

36 minutes ago, jodgi said:

 

Let's do round two or three of pleasing the "I want to help my friends" crowd.

You are covered in this case.
If you attack a stronger target only you can be reinforced. If you attack a weaker target they can be reinforced.

And no crowd will have a preference. We will only need to satisfy one parameter - pvp per in game hour. if it grows - game gets better. 

[jodgi]

22 minutes ago, rediii said:

I allways thought you are pretty good from the posts you make in forum

and then I fought you in a battle.

Gloves off, huh?

Dude, I've said I'm shit for a long time. I haven't been ok since duel room went away, I get almost no training and I never got "good" at mod or repair meta. No, I'm easy prey in current NA, just like you experienced. I still love to fight you, nethros, Ram, Reverse, Cecil or any other of the good players I've been up against, I prefer taking a beating over bullying the weak.

You've been annoyed at me before, but that is the most aggressive post I've seen you make. Hmmm...

[Vernon Merrill]

So why not just bring back legends?  Maximum PvP per hour.  Instant 100%.

[Spitfire83]

Circle of death in OW... well then as one of the few solo pvpers the game is wrecked and open battle for weaker side means less pvp because as solo I have to be even more cautious then now about who and when I tag... I dont want to be forced to be on ts etc I often need to go afk etc so group ganking does not appeal...for many reasons.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Spitfire83

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

@rediii You mean something like basic non-crewspace admiralty ships in shop ? Like  an infinite number ot basic-o/o Surprise coming with med 9 and no need for repair kits for ~20000 Reals in each freetown near pz?  Only allowed to tag or join in patrol zones ? a kind of pz consumable.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[Licinio Chiavari]

6 minutes ago, rediii said:

A smaller map leads to more pvp per hour

easy access to standard 5th rates lead to more pvp per hour

Standard freeport outposts for everyone would lead to more pvp per hour

easier access to repairs or limit on repairs each battle would lead to more pvp each hour because ppl are not that limited anymore (dont need 300 hull reps anymore but 100)

craftable basic mods could maybe lead to faster fitted ships

This.

[Spitfire83]

Does anyone honestly believe that if the trincomalee ran into l'ocean due to bad weather or fog that the trinc would stay and fight to the death for the glory of admins desires or would the trinc run away and report sighting to others... so why??? Just why? Been playing this game for years 5k plus hours and tbh it's getting harder to justify staying....but hey I guess that's the plan...

[Sir Max Magic]

4 hours ago, admin said:

 

• Battle is always open for the weaker side  <--- Perfect !!!
  •  

 

In fact, EVERYTHING sounds perfect !!! +1

 

...except Circle of Death for whole world, its the worst possible idea !!!    

 

Make everything, but leave CoD to PZ (and even there most people hate it)

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Sir Max Magic

[Licinio Chiavari]

19 minutes ago, admin said:

You are covered in this case.
If you attack a stronger target only you can be reinforced. If you attack a weaker target they can be reinforced.

And no crowd will have a preference. We will only need to satisfy one parameter - pvp per in game hour. if it grows - game gets better. 

You should know perfectly that being the "weaker side BR" wise has nothing to do being really the weaker.

Numbers is only (and very limited at the moment - due to gear and reps) defense and chance for average player vs. veterans.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

Weaker side always open: does that mean that if your agga get caught in battle by an Hercule, the Hercule can be reinforced by a bucc and the agga is stuck ?- If the Hercule was followed by a large group, once the bucc entered, is it the agga side that become open ? But how the reinforcement comes if a part of the hercule's  group still sit outside , able to tag any potential reinforcement ?

 

I Know this means more potential pvp in this case, but maybe the side effect will be a new (old) meta were the stronger side will never take the risk to tag in dangerous water, and small taggers will hunt or bait while friends sit hidden in ports waiting to jump in like we've seen before ?

Edited January 18, 2019 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[Bragan Benigaris]

More pvp? Perhaps try a naval action world without super-mods, super-woods, super-ships and super-speed in OW?

Three woods, one a little tougher, one allround and one a little faster, a dozen mods, none stackable and reasonable ship prices from 7th to 4th rates. Oh, and please balance the super-pocket-battleship Hercules.

If you then go back to leeway and non-streamlined, individual sailing profiles you would have a game based on skill and ship characteristics and don't have always adjust the game mechanics because of Speed-, thicknes- or whatever -meta.

Just my 2 cents 

P.S. Even as one of the less-so-social solo players, nonetheless i will happily adapt to every change of the battle mechanics. The only thing i personally can't live with, is the circle of death. If we get this crap in every battle i will instantly hop over to the Peace-server and if we get this there also, quit for good.

[Durin]

A few days ago, i encountered a russian Santisima while sailing on my Constitution. I would not mind to fight him 1v1, but he was clever, he sailed very close to the shore so it would be very hard for me to sterncamp - my only chance of winning such a fight. I kept him in battle for 5 minutes and then left and attacked him again with a friendly Ocean and another Constitution to capture his ship. I think this was a legit tactic since he sailed alone on a first rate - that is never a good idea.

Question: was it legit and should it be possible?

[Kejsaren]

37 minutes ago, admin said:

We will only need to satisfy one parameter - pvp per in game hour. if it grows - game gets better. 

No it doesn't. Pvp per in game hour does not reflect the quality of pvp or how good the game is.

High quality pvp will increase the pvp per hour, ... there are other ways to increase it but at the cost of quality which is not good.

I would rather have 3 good fights on one afternoon then 20 shitty ones.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Castañon del Rey

[Crimson Sunrise]

35 minutes ago, admin said:

You are covered in this case.
If you attack a stronger target only you can be reinforced. If you attack a weaker target they can be reinforced.

And no crowd will have a preference. We will only need to satisfy one parameter - pvp per in game hour. if it grows - game gets better. 

by that logic u create the source of chaos,  so if a cutter engages a larger ship then itself only its side can reinforce in turn making ganking fleets much easier to get the upper hand when engaging enemy ships in pvp all they have to do is start the engagement with a smaller ship then its target like using a Lynx to start battles then reinforce with requin or sol's 

[Ellias]

1 hour ago, admin said:

 We will only need to satisfy one parameter - pvp per in game hour. if it grows - game gets better. 

more DLC ships? fitted DLC ships? 

Legends may be?

Edit: This is sarcasm not a recommendation

Edited January 18, 2019 by Ellias

[Crimson Sunrise]

1 minute ago, Ellias said:

more DLC ships? fitted DLC ships? 

Legends may be?

if they wanted just pvp they could of just made a game that mirrors world of warships 

[Christendom]

Circle of death sounds horrible for all battles.  

There is 1 clear solution and it’s call outlaw battles with positional joining.  

I think it’s absurdly stupid that I can see a battle 2 mins away start but I can’t get there and it magically closes.  

[Christendom]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

just drag everyone in viewrange into a battle with instaclose. I think that mechanic was the best we had

Or open it to everyone in within a grid square.  5 mins timers would even be an improvement 

[Slim McSauce]

5 hours ago, admin said:

It's a grey area.
There is no formal rules that do not allow attacking a player, shooting and running. Because they are based on initial core design elements built around instanced battles.  
But these core design elements cause such frustrations and problems that are not good for the long term of the game. 
Before the release the decision must be made about those core systems and here are the options.

Current ruleset is based on these ideologies

• I want to attack someone and people far away must not enter = "i must be able to sink you solo if i want to"
• I want to be able to sink a 1st rate in a cutter (old heated topic). 
• I want to be able to run away if i want to (because my ship is fast)
• I do not want a player from far to join my battle, because its mine. 

If the goals is to increase pvp these ideologies can be rethought or abandoned as they dont increase an amount of pvp. 

• Problem 1 - inability to help your own.
  • The common message from rookies in national chats are well known - "I got attacked near XXX port - please help if you can" or "I see enemy ships - lets tag them - come help"… 
  • Usual answer in chat - silence and "tough luck" - as you CANT. I think its time to accept the fact that distance based ROE is bad and is reducing pvp and only helps solo hunters (which based on data are a huge minority).  
  • This is a problem because we know that pvp assists has 100% of correlation with retention. If you dont participate in group activities you drop from the game 10x faster.  
• Problem 1.1 part of lack of group pvp
  • There is actually not enough ganking (hold on and bear with me).  For accounts created in December: Only 5% of players have pvp assists and only 1% of players have more than 10 pvp assists. 
  • Again the problem because assist increase retention
• Problem 2 Speed
  • Fast ship controls the OW pvp, and heavy battle ready ships do not have anything to counter against the gank even if they outnumber enemies in guns.
• Problem 3 combat ready ship balance - described by OP in the post.
  • When line ship is fighting 3 fast frigates to win the lineship must not make a single mistake
  • When 3 fast frigates fight the lineship they can always run away if they make a mistake

 

So why dont we just rework those ideologies from scratch and focus them on the main goal - increase pvp and group pvp per hour for all (not only solo hunter in a speed fitted frigate). 

Examples of clear solutions solving the problems and increasing meaningful pvp on the WAR server

• This is a war server. Why escape options? Whats the point? If you attacked - fight!
  • Patrol rules for the whole world. Circle of death.
  • If you are ready to attack someone - be ready to die and fight to the end. 
  • Sure some will cry about it  - tough luck like they say in national chats - but it will keep only meaningful pvp.
• Battle is always open for the weaker side 
  • This is a war server - this is a pvp game with the goal to increase amount of pvp for all. There is no point to close the battle for the weaker side. Let them escalate. This becomes the goal. 
  • Then you can come to help your own, and know someone will come to help.
  • Then you can build more friendships and get assists 
  • Then you will stumble to more battles and will have more pvp kills per hour. 

Basically.

• When improving ROE - Remove all features from ROE that reduce pvp per hour. Add features that grow the pvp per hour. 
• Ignore the cries like "but tumbado is 3000km away".
• Check only one parameter when determining the outcome of changes - number of PVP battles per hour and number of assists.
• Ignore the rest.
   

This will also solve the problem described in the post (with the move to weight systems because with proper broadside weight - prince will die in 1 min). 
 

PS
Current number for War server for accounts created in December
1 pvp kill every 8 hours in game per pvp engaged player. 
1 pvp kill every 24 hours in game total for the server
 

Now you're cooking with gas mate. Cut out the filler battles, get right to the meat and potatoes. People want to fight and they want battles that are good matches.
 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Slim McSauce