Le Requin Testing and Feedback

[Bluetooth]

2 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

 

 You do realise that the Herc was made a 5th rate for the same reasons and has less crew than req lol..... crew space/hammocks/light ship hammocks?

 

 

That doesnt make it right though does it.

[Sir Loorkon]

Have you tried to go into the shallow water area in a Snow. Meet a Requien with an average player, get rammed, rageboarded, game over in 5 minutes. The Snow itself is an OP ship, but it stands no chance at all against a Requien. All shallowships are obsolete now. 

[Raf Van Boom]

One thing for sure, the BR ratings of theHercules and the Requin are out of whack. A requin in a shallow PB would be worth, hmm, I don't know, 5 rattlesnake heavies and by that logic should have a BR rating of 5 rattlesnake heavies, I mean how many can you chain board before you're actually sunk?

Maybe BR ratings should be based off what sinks what the most and dynamic? That'd be interesting to see a Hercules with 500 BR rating

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Le Raf Boom

[Sir Loorkon]

The Herk is even worse by the way. You can kill nearly every ship with it. The only reason why the stats of the devs do not notice that is that many of the Herks that beginners get are sunk, driven by beginners. A good player in a Herk can nearly do whatever he wants. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

14 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

Have you tried to go into the shallow water area in a Snow. Meet a Requien with an average player, get rammed, rageboarded, game over in 5 minutes. The Snow itself is an OP ship, but it stands no chance at all against a Requien. All shallowships are obsolete now. 

I notice some folks keep avoiding the crew part like it’s not an issue.  It has with no mods a 100 more crew than any other 6th rate.  Even if they stacked crew mods they be about equal crew (Niagara) but the Requin can spend those slots on boarding and destroy a board fit Niagara easily and still have slots left for other mods ship knowledge.  

[z4ys]

32 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I notice some folks keep avoiding the crew part like it’s not an issue.  It has with no mods a 100 more crew than any other 6th rate.  Even if they stacked crew mods they be about equal crew (Niagara) but the Requin can spend those slots on boarding and destroy a board fit Niagara easily and still have slots left for other mods ship knowledge.  

It's a boarding ship Ofc it has more crew. So everyone can be certain the "how will the enemy (xebec) approach me ?" Is related to ppk(push pull kill). Take counter measures accordingly. Like extend downwind, focus on crew (which can now be dmged correct after the crew hotfix [not in patchnotes but got fixed]. Crew on the xebec is on all decks even there are no guns. Shoot at the deck with the helm and you can kill a lot of crew. When leaks are not certain aim high that the balls go through the planking can kill crew. Use your chaser while extending either to chain or to demast. Only engage when the xebec is crippled regarding crew or sails. A withdrawing xebec is a win they don't have to be sunk.

[Bluetooth]

1 hour ago, Sir Loorkon said:

Have you tried to go into the shallow water area in a Snow. Meet a Requien with an average player, get rammed, rageboarded, game over in 5 minutes. The Snow itself is an OP ship, but it stands no chance at all against a Requien. All shallowships are obsolete now. 

You mean there is hope for the average player!!!

But I do agree shallow water is a problem but that's really another issue.

Since the requin nerf it's now really hard to catch a snow or even a half loaded trader and if they lowered the requins hull a bit that should even things up a bit and the crew die well now. I also think the BR for herc and xebec should be about 130.

BUT

The balance with shallow water ships has always been in the snow's favour and many threads on this forum were about the snow sterncamping 1st rates and many top players defended this because they liked to do it.

Now the requin has arrived every ship suddenely has to be equal and every ship should be able to catch/fight/run equal to all others, that's never going to happen.

Realism in NA has never been so good.

If a snow met a Requin, the Snow should run away.

If a pickle met a snow the pickle should run away.

If a snow meets a Connie .....the Connie sinks.....🙄🤔😉😎

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Crow

[Aquillas]

I made dozens of fights against Xebecs, most of them in front of Kingston Port Royal. Like for other capitals, several raiders are daily camping there. Yesterday, I saw a fight involving 6 xebecs and 2 Hercules, vs two Brits. Eight OP ships in the same fight, no more entered in the British side, which is fully understandable. Just one more stupid gank, again…

I tested several things to fight xebecs, including small ship which should be useful, used in cooperation with some frigates with higher fire power, to get rid of them or, at least, to get some interesting fights. As everybody knows, fighting against xebecs is normally just a boring time loss.

In great lines, I mostly used Lynx, Pickles and Privateers, (Bermuda/Bermuda built, and one or two 2% speed upgrades and the Art of Ship Handling), to have some upwind capability and be able to outturn xebecs by a proper manual sailing, which is possible ( @Licinio Chiavari, @Casanova Moderne). See an example of such fights here:

I purchased the xebec DLC, and farmed the 5 knowledge slots, but I refuse to use xebecs against xebecs, for not reducing Naval Action to Xebec Action, as it is ever the case in shallow water port battles (and I do not participate any more to shallow water PB’s, because these are xebec only PB’s).

 

What are the main conclusions of these fights, in terms of fighting technics and in terms of IT modeling?

First of all, in real life, the schooner sails are way more efficient upwind than the lateen sails. This is not the case in Naval Action and this is clearly an error in the model. If lateen sails were as efficient as modelled in NA, all our present race ships would use it for getting the first place in transatlantic races. This is not the case, none use that. Schooner sails are way better, because they are more flat than lateen sails (just see the historical pictures in above posts).  For anyone knowing in great lines what are the forces involved in sailing upwind (forces to the sails, reaction on the hull), more close to the wind you are, more flat must be the sails, more tension must be placed on the rigging, with an ideal profile looking like aircraft wings. This impossible to reach with xebecs sails in real life. The historical champions that way were Asian junks, having some batten in the sails to get it more flat and as a result, being champions upwind and relatively poor downwind (junk sails are far from spinnakers). Today, rigid slats are added in race sail ships, to improve sail efficiency, which was not the case in XVIIIth century.

So, xebecs should be better than squared rigged ships upwind (done in NA), but Lynx and privateers should be better than xebecs. Far from being the case in NA, xebecs reach the max speed upwind (15.5 kn), which is physically and historically an error. Downwind, xebecs should be worse than squared rigged ships, but better than schooners.

 

About the damage model of the xebec, remarks can be made on hull damage model and on sail damage model.

For the hull, this is simple, to hit the hull, please aim above the hull, you will see you balls going over the target and you will see impacts on the side bars and on the structure bar…

For the sails, there is a postage stamp to be hit in the sails if you want to make damages. It is located somewhere quite low and near the masts. Hitting higher than the fitting between the mast and the boom is useless, you would see your balls and chains passing through the xebec sails with no impact. Two days ago, with a pickle, I reduced the sails of a Wappen down to 80%, using the 24 chain shots, by chain broadsiding her. Yesterday, with a privateer, I reduced the sails of a xebec down to 99%, using the 24 chain shots, by single shot “precision” chain shots… Same captain, so different result! Why? First of all, for the Wappen, I used rake chaining, almost impossible with xebecs (to small target), but from the side of the ship and from quite low distance, I would have expected to reduce xebec sails down to 92% or less, at the accepted cost of being obliged to make a hull repair to my privateer… Dear developers, please clearly indicate on a drawing where is located the postage stamp to be hit on xebec sails. Today, xebec sails are in fact invulnerable unless being lucky on one broadside, without knowing exactly why this one worked and why previous one did not...

Dismasting a xebec is quite difficult, also due to the small target to hit. Historically and physically, the booms were more fragile than the masts, being part of the running rigging. In Naval Action, only the standing rigging can be hit (masts only). But in the case of a Xebec, breaking a boom has the same effect as breaking a mast. I do think that this is to be corrected, by including the boom in the mast target.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Aquillas

[Bluetooth]

12 minutes ago, Aquillas said:

I made dozens of fights against Xebecs

You made some good points and the devs are looking at these ships again so I am sure future tweaks will come to balance.

However complaining of realism after telling us how you took down a wappens sails to 80 % with a pickle!!!!

This is the whole problem with players on this forum.

You only see AS REALISTIC what YOU enjoy doing.

Everything else is somehow not right OR unbalanced.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Crow

[Thonys]

14 minutes ago, Aquillas said:

I made dozens of fights against Xebecs, most of them in front of Kingston Port Royal. Like for other capitals, several raiders are daily camping there. Yesterday, I saw a fight involving 6 xebecs and 2 Hercules, vs two Brits. Eight OP ships in the same fight, no more entered in the British side, which is fully understandable. Just one more stupid gank, again…

I tested several things to fight xebecs, including small ship which should be useful, used in cooperation with some frigates with higher fire power, to get rid of them or, at least, to get some interesting fights. As everybody knows, fighting against xebecs is normally just a boring time loss.

In great lines, I mostly used Lynx, Pickles and Privateers, (Bermuda/Bermuda built, and one or two 2% speed upgrades), to have some upwind capability and be able to outturn xebecs by a proper manual sailing, which is possible ( @Licinio Chiavari, @Casanova Moderne). See an example of these fights here:

I purchased the xebec DLC, and farmed the 5 knowledge slots, but I refuse to use xebecs against xebecs, for not reducing Naval Action to Xebec Action, as it is ever the case in shallow water port battles (and I do not participate any more to shallow water PB’s, because these are xebec only PB’s).

 

What are the main conclusions of these fights, in terms of fighting technics and in terms of IT modeling?

First of all, in real life, the schooner sails are way more efficient upwind than the lateen sails. This is not the case in Naval Action and this is clearly an error in the model. If lateen sails were as efficient as modelled in NA, all our present race ships would use it for getting the first place in transatlantic races. This is not the case, none use that. Schooner sails are way better, because they are more flat than lateen sails (just see the historical pictures in above posts).  For anyone knowing in great lines what are the forces involved in sailing upwind (forces to the sails, reaction on the hull), more close to the wind you are, more flat must be the sails, more tension must be placed on the rigging, with an ideal profile looking like aircraft wings. This impossible to reach with xebecs sails in real life. The historical champions that way were Asian junks, having some batten in the sails to get it more flat and as a result, being champions upwind and relatively poor downwind (junk sails are far from spinnakers). Today, rigid slats are added in race sail ships, to improve sail efficiency, which was not the case in XVIIIth century.

So, xebecs should be better than squared rigged ships upwind (done in NA), but Lynx and privateers should be better than xebecs. Far from being the case in NA, xebecs reach the max speed upwind (15.5 kn), which is physically and historically an error. Downwind, xebecs should be worse than squared rigged ships, but better than schooners.

 

About the damage model of the xebec, remarks can be made on hull damage model and on sail damage model.

For the hull, this is simple, to hit the hull, please aim above the hull, you will see you balls going over the target and you will see impacts on the side bars and on the structure bar…

For the sails, there is a postage stamp to be hit in the sails if you want to make damages. It is located somewhere quite low and near the masts. Hitting higher than the fitting between the mast and the boom is useless, you would see your balls and chains passing through the xebec sails with no impact. Two days ago, with a pickle, I reduced the sails of a Wappen down to 80%, using the 24 chain shots, by chain broadsiding her. Yesterday, with a privateer, I reduced the sails of a xebec down to 99%, using the 24 chain shots, by single shot “precision” chain shots… Same captain, so different result! Why? First of all, for the Wappen, I used rake chaining, almost impossible with xebecs (to small target), but from the side of the ship and from quite low distance, I would have expected to reduce xebec sails down to 92% or less, at the accepted cost of being obliged to make a hull repair to my privateer… Dear developers, please clearly indicate on a drawing where is located the postage stamp to be hit on xebec sails. Today, xebec sails are in fact invulnerable unless being lucky on one broadside, without knowing exactly why this one worked and previous one did not...

Dismasting a xebec is quite difficult, also due to the small target to hit. Historically and physically, the booms were more fragile than the masts, being part of the running rigging. In Naval Action, only the standing rigging can be hit (masts only). But in the case of a Xebec, breaking a boom has the same effect as breaking a mast. I do think that this is to be corrected, by including the boom in the mast target.

i agree  (in most parts) totally what you say

good analysis

Edited August 20, 2018 by Thonys

[Thomas Boyle]

Xebec and Herc play instead of average players as OP. Skillful players get from them(dlc ships) OP^2. These ships exist outside the rules.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Thomas Boyle

[Aquillas]

2 minutes ago, Crow said:

You made some good points and the devs are looking at these ships again so I am sure future tweaks will come to balance.

However complaining of realism after telling us how you took down a wappens sails to 80 % with a pickle!!!!

This is the whole problem with players on this forum.

You only see AS REALISTIC what YOU enjoy doing.

Everything else is somehow not right OR unbalanced.

No Sir, and I agree with you that chains are OP now, that 7th rates should not be such a danger for 4th rates and above, etc. I would prefer to have more chain shots, with less effect each.

My purpose was to make a comparison between chain effect on Wappen and Xebec. It should be more efficient on xebec than on Wappen. But in NA, just the opposite!.

Chain effect, chain limitation and so on are another true problem, and another topic.

[Hethwill]

Just now, Aquillas said:

I would prefer to have more chain shots, with less effect each.

Me too ( not ). As it was tested. Half the squadron would be literally spamming chain the entirely battle, like they did before. Rendering any chance of repair useless due to infinite ammo. All good... ( not really... )

[Bluetooth]

8 minutes ago, Aquillas said:

No Sir, and I agree with you that chains are OP now, that 7th rates should not be such a danger for 4th rates and above, etc. I would prefer to have more chain shots, with less effect each.

My purpose was to make a comparison between chain effect on Wappen and Xebec. It should be more efficient on xebec than on Wappen. But in NA, just the opposite!.

Chain effect, chain limitation and so on are another true problem, and another topic.

Ok I see that.

However with the lateen sail there is less force resistance and less rigging as opposed to square rigged sails.

Square rigged have more rigging ropes, sectionns etc and are far more rigid and therefore more likely to be damaged by chain, tangled etc.

And on the lateen sail a lot of sail hits would simply slide away with the cloth if not hit direct on. 

Ball vs mast is best vs xebec.

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Crow

[Dibbler (Retired)]

37 minutes ago, Crow said:

Since the requin nerf it's now really hard to catch a snow or even a half loaded trader and if they lowered the requins hull a bit that should even things up a bit and the crew die well now. I also think the BR for herc and xebec should be about 130. 

 

 The snow is better downwind, the req better upwind thats not really an issue each is the polar opposite of the other as were prince and snow previously.

 For me at least the issue with Req is with light ship hammocks can muster insane crew amount, also hitbox on sails (as pointed out) is off and something seems not right with hitbox on herc and req.

BR's are also to low for herc and req.

Main issue is ability to stack light ship hammocks as was with herc.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Dibbler

[Bluetooth]

2 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

 

 The snow is better downwind, the req better upwind thats not really an issue each is the polar opposite of the other as were prince and snow previously.

 For me at least the issue with Req is with light ship hammocks can muster insane crew amount, also hitbox on sails (as pointed out) is off and something seems not right with hitbox on herc and req.

BR's are also to low for herc and req.

Main issue is ability to stack light ship hammocks as was with herc.

Maybe some mods need removing.

Light ship hammocks could be one of them.

[Dibbler (Retired)]

15 minutes ago, Crow said:

Maybe some mods need removing.

Light ship hammocks could be one of them.

Maybe is answer, or as done with herc make req 5th rate.  I guess if they buffed 6th rate crew levels light ships hammocks could go totally which would solve a large part of issues.

I know before you say that Req is 6th (as was herc) but crew levels on BOTH ships has made other ships pointless in shallow port battles as so outmatched in both firepower and crew levels (boarding).

Of course is made worse with meta-gaming but that will occur whatever is done and new meta will become the norm.

I'm sure devs will sort out balance somehow, maybe increasing crew levels on all rates as if is done on 6th then 5th up also need rebalance.

Things are somewhat of a clusterfook at moment though lol,  when i see a req i just run can't be bothered chasing them or engaging way things are (which is a pity).

I not saying ships should be nerfed to oblivion, but the herc i have i don't really use atm as is OP just like the Req, as was the wasa when first introduced. 

Things will be right i guess, just maybe will take time to find a solution.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Dibbler

[Hethwill]

Blame whatever ANY ships becomes with the mods/books but NEVER blame the mod/book system. Because i know if I blame the true culprits all my other ships might be affected and I only want, those 2 specific ships to be axed but keep my OP ships pristine.

 

[Dibbler (Retired)]

12 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Blame whatever ANY ships becomes with the mods/books but NEVER blame the mod/book system. Because i know if I blame the true culprits all my other ships might be affected and I only want, those 2 specific ships to be axed but keep my OP ships pristine.

 

I would just like to see a little more balance overall and am shouting for my herc to be nerfed lol.

However it's understandable people wanting to protect their favourite ship, they are like women.

Am sure things will settle as devs get handle on things but at moment is crazy dlc swarm out there.

Believe me if the swing went other way and they nerfed Req to death i would stand up for it also,  the dlc ships need to be better ofc so people buy but perhaps less so than they currently are .

Edited August 20, 2018 by Dibbler

[Bluetooth]

7 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Blame whatever ANY ships becomes with the mods/books but NEVER blame the mod/book system. Because i know if I blame the true culprits all my other ships might be affected and I only want, those 2 specific ships to be axed but keep my OP ships pristine.

 

 

[Hethwill]

I am finally running the Xebec in earnest without any "janky" stuff to pull her away from her historical credibility.

She performs as expected, a hit and run raider. Overpower what she can, run away from what she can't ( same could be said about the USN superfrigates in a historical sense ).

Her use as a newcomer farmhammer is not really the tool fault but how the tool is used. Before Hercs and Xebec it was Princes, Surprises, speed board Wasas, you name it. Was exactly the same with coast guards not even having time to react ( whatever nation, this i can tell you right now ). But that's a discussion separate from DLC ship Le Requin.

Used as intended - and by purposefully "nerfing" yourself to not use the "broken" equipment and knowledge - the Xebec makes justice to her historical counterpart.

[Angus MacDuff]

I participated in 3 port battles yesterday, all shallow.  It was a sea of red sails.  One time when we all left port together, I couldn't tell which ship was mine.  It's very unfortunate that this ship stands alone as queen of the PB. 

[Bluetooth]

10 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

sed as intended - and by purposefully "nerfing" yourself to not use the "broken" equipment and knowledge - the Xebec makes justice to her historical counterpart.

As a pirate clan she is a gift.

In BLACK we don't use any elite mods, copper, cart, elite rigs etc.

We hit any and all shipping and once in the instance and we can see our enemy is not a noob, we attack.

We hit and raid and run.

We don't own ports.

We don't do RVR.

We are pirates.

( I must admit I don't like seeing nationals in xebec ONLY because it dont LOOK right.)

#loverequin

#makepiratesgreatagain

[Hethwill]

3 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

I participated in 3 port battles yesterday, all shallow.  It was a sea of red sails.  One time when we all left port together, I couldn't tell which ship was mine.  It's very unfortunate that this ship stands alone as queen of the PB. 

Metas. As Z posted, 80% of previous PBs were rattles.

#antimetaleague

[Thonys]

6 minutes ago, Crow said:

As a pirate clan she is a gift.

In BLACK we don't use any elite mods, copper, cart, elite rigs etc.

We hit any and all shipping and once in the instance and we can see our enemy is not a noob, we attack.

We hit and raid and run.

We don't own ports.

We don't do RVR.

We are pirates.

( I must admit I don't like seeing nationals in xebec ONLY because it dont LOOK right.)

#loverequin

#makepiratesgreatagain

2

well many navy used the reguin . not only pirates even nationl russian navy and spanish navy used it.

even today fishing ships (somali pirats) are used as pirate vessels 

 

Xebec is also written as xebeck, xebe(c)que, zebec(k), zebecque, chebec, shebeck (/ʃɪˈbɛk/); from (Catalan: xebec, French: chabec, now chebec, Spanish: xabeque, now jabeque, Portuguese: enxabeque, now xabeco, Italian: sciabecco, zambecco, stambecco, Greek: σεμπέκο, sebeco Ligurian: sciabécco, Arabic: شباك‎, šabbāk and Turkish: sunbeki) Words similar in form and meaning to xebec occur in Catalan, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Arabic and Turkish. The Online Etymology Dictionary regards the Arabic shabbak (meaning "a small warship") as the source form, however the Arabic root means 'a net', implying the word originally referred to a fishing boat.

The Spanish jabeque had only lateen sails, as portrayed in the Cazador. The Spanish Crown built Cazador in the mid-eighteenth century to fight Algerian corsairs (privateers) in the Mediterranean. Algerian corsairs also used three-lateen-sail xebecs in their raids on Mediterranean trade.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Thonys