Le Requin Testing and Feedback

[Hethwill]

Then bring up the right arguments. Not the same excuses. Meta is meta.

Some of us strive for variety, always.

[Aster]

Ok step by step then.

You buy the requin. Check. The other side buys the requin, Check. Both sides can fight with a chance to win.

If one side does not buy the requin it has no chance to win. Because the requin is a over powered shallow water RVR ship and non paid ships can not compete.=Pay to win

If a piece of gear has to be bought with money to be competitive because all normal in game pieces of gear simply get stomped by it. It is pay to win.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Aster

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, Aster said:

Ok step by step then.

You buy the requin. Check. The other side buys the requin, Check. Both sides can fight with a chance to win.

If one side does not buy the requin it has no chance to win. Because the requin is a over powered shallow water RVR ship and non paid ships can not compete.=Pay to win

but they bought it and did not win fake p2w

[Lovec1990]

1 minute ago, z4ys said:

how can it be p2w if one half of le requin owners lose?

its actually simple quite a few people bought DLC ships and they use them becouse they are cheap to replace and they do not need too deal with anoying crafting or greedy sellers then thiis DLC ships are used for PvP.

So DLC ship captains are far more prone too go into PvP battle and are far more suicidal in battles, but p2w comes from fact this things are meta and some people cannot accept the fact DLC ships are popular and used for PvP and they cry P2W.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

HMS Moriarty.

The 600

[Aster]

Ok one more time. Take a fleet of non paid ships, any shallow water ships you please. Then fight a somewhat equal skill opponent with requins and color me impressed if you win.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Aster

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, Aster said:

Ok one more time. Take a fleet of non paid ships, any shallw water ships you please. Then fight a somewhat equal skill opponent with requins and color me impressed if you win.

to be p2w it has to apply to all circumstances not just one. if you have the requin you have to win always otherwise it cant be p2w

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, z4ys said:

to be p2w it has to apply to all circumstances not just one. if you have the requin you have to win always otherwise it cant be p2w

Think value vs value, resources vs $, is it fair!

[Aster]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

I will simply refer to the common definition of pay to win for that one.

[Lovec1990]

7 minutes ago, Aster said:

Ok one more time. Take a fleet of non paid ships, any shallow water ships you please. Then fight a somewhat equal skill opponent with requins and color me impressed if you win.

this aint gonna prove a thing you need to add Luck and Teamwork so battle can be won by any side.

 Pay To Win. when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months).

ok requin may be marginally  be p2w but not in traditional sense as its writen becouse it has limitations that non paid ships have not 

[z4ys]

5 minutes ago, Aster said:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

I will simply refer to the common definition of pay to win for that one.

1 st rate can kill a xebec with no problem by that your p2w definition doesnt apply anymore

[William Death]

@admin 

My understanding of square sails vs lateen sails and their drawbacks is this: (limited research, mostly picked up from here-and-there reading and a very little bit of experience sailing small lug rigged [similar to a lateen in some ways] dinghy)

Lateen Sails vs Square Sails the good:

• Lateens have good performance at most wind angles, especially upwind when compared to square rigged ships
• Lateens are comparatively easier to operate, since there are fewer lines needing adjusting when changing course or tacking. (compared to square rigged ships with 4+ sails per mast and each sail needing multiple ropes adjusted to maneuver. Dropping sails in an emergency is a breeze, compared to square rigged ships.

Lateen Sails vs Square Sails the bad:

• Lateen sails suffer from a "bad tack" when the mast interrupts the foil shape. This could be corrected by "dipping" the sail though (putting it to the proper side of the mast), but that would require more time to complete and the sail would need to be luffing while dipping the yard.
• Very large sail area + most of that area is far from the centerline of the mast + only 1sail per mast makes jibing (gybing) in strong winds more dangerous, especially if its an unexpected jibe. Think about the sail suddenly changing sides when sailing nearly straight downwind. Potential to snap a yard in such a maneuver.
• Snapping a lateen yard pretty much disables that sail. 
• Also, despite fewer control lines to adjust, the large sail area needs manpower to handle (fortunately Xebecs have plenty)
• A single, large sail on a mast can be more challenging to reef. The COE (center of effort) needs to not move too much when reefed or the ship won't handle as well. 

Notice that most of the negatives of lateens are related to the fact that you typically only get 1 sail per mast: 

Think about losing the power from that 1 big sail and how that would affect your ship, especially in combat.

One weak spot or a hidden knot in the wooden yard and it shatters while wearing ship, dousing the deck with a huge piece of heavy, flammable canvas and hundreds of yards of rope (my understanding is that in square rigged ships, the yards could be chained before battle, preventing the sails from falling to the deck even if the yard shatters; I don't think this would be practical with a lateen rig, but I may be wrong there...wish I could remember where I read that and if it was a reliable source...).

Despite the negatives, lateen sails do out perform square sails. They allow the ship to sail closer to the wind and at greater speeds than square sails. But for a ship that intends to sail into combat, they may perhaps have some notable disadvantages.

 

Is there any way to introduce some of these things referenced in the points? Give Requin weak yards (they have hitboxes just like topmasts and topgallant masts) that can be shot away, reducing sail area for that mast. Or make the sails extra vulnerable to both ball and chainshot damage to simulate a yard being damaged or partially broken. Perhaps that would help balance out the ship a bit. Lots of crew and good guns but the rigging is the Achilles Heel so to speak.

Perhaps, as a sailing profile balancing option, you could make the schooners have best performance close hauled (30°-75°), Xebec and the "upwind" 5th-6th rates have their best performance around beam reach (60°-115°) [notice that they are not excluded from upwind performance either, 60° is still close hauled], and downwind ships, of course, rule the downwind angles. Wouldn't this achieve a better balance of sailing profiles? Give reasons to sail the little schooners again. Reasons to use square rigged ships that don't involve Elite Spanish Rig...

 

I see several, if not all of these points were already mentioned, but I thought I'd throw in the little bit I know about the subject too.

[z4ys]

3 minutes ago, William Death said:

@admin 

....

we are missing many "sim" features but why only apply them to the xebec and not to all ships?

Edited August 20, 2018 by z4ys

[Aster]

Its only real limit is that you can only spawn one per day per account. Which is a limit but in the current state of RVR Unless you get three shallow ports flipped at once that you have to show up to its a non issue.

A first rate can not go into shallow water port battles so thats irrelevant and that literally has nothing to do with the definition of pay to win in any sense of the word.

Anyway making the requin a 5th rate/banning it from shallow port battles like the Niagara of old would be a good first step to not making shallow water RVR pay to win. Just like what happened to the Hercules.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Aster

[Lovec1990]

1 minute ago, z4ys said:

we are missing many "sim" features but why only apply them to the xebec and not to all ships?

double standards 

[Lovec1990]

Just now, Aster said:

Its only real limit is that you can only spawn one per day per account. Which is a limit but in the current state of RVR Unless you get three shallow ports flipped at once that you have to show up to its a non issue.

A first rate can not go into shallow water port battles so thats irrelevant and that literally has nothing to do with the definition of pay to win in any sense of the word.

 for 1 requin cooldown duration you can get 10+ non paid ships and naval action is not just RvR you wanna call ship p2w then do not be tunnel visioned look at whole picture

[Aster]

Just now, Lovec1990 said:

 for 1 requin cooldown duration you can get 10+ non paid ships and naval action is not just RvR you wanna call ship p2w then do not be tunnel visioned look at whole picture

And no single non paid ship can beat it in a RVR setting in the shallows. So simply ban it from shallow RVR and it will be much less of a pay to win issue.

[z4ys]

4 minutes ago, Aster said:

And no single non paid ship can beat it in a RVR setting in the shallows. So simply ban it from shallow RVR and it will be much less of a pay to win issue.

requin can sink by 5 32pd leaks. niagara can mount 32pds on paper niagara can beat xebec

[Lovec1990]

Just now, Aster said:

And no single non paid ship can beat it in a RVR setting in the shallows. So simply ban it from shallow RVR and it will be much less of a pay to win issue.

read what i wrote Naval action is not just RvR  and no banning you still failed at showing us p2w with your tunnel vision

[William Death]

20 minutes ago, z4ys said:

we are missing many "sim" features but why only apply them to the xebec and not to all ships?

Admin asked what the differences/advantages/disadvantages were between Lateen Rig and Square Rig and why some Lateen Rigged ships also carried Square Rigs.

I tried to answer that with what I know and gave suggestions for how to implement it in game. I doubt the dev team can dedicate the time to making new hitboxes and graphics for broken yards on all ships, or even on Xebec.  But making the sails weaker in place of breakable yards is a close approximation of the same thing, and only involves changing 1 stat. Read the post again. Breaking a yard in a Xebec is far more disastrous than breaking one on a frigate. You lose almost 1/3 of your power when a Xebec has a disabled sail. You lose maybe 1/8 or less of your power when you lose a sail on a frigate. 

 

*Watches @z4ys get all defensive of his beloved Requin* 

I dislike the silly thing, just as I dislike Prince, Rattlesnake, Snow, NavyBrig, Lynx, and all the other little shallow bumper boats. But I recognize that some people do like those ships. Doesn't bother me, so long as the ships are balanced. They are simply not, right now. Xebec is too strong for the BR it has. It is too powerful when paired with certain upgrades (upgrades that don't necessarily make any other ship overpowered in the same way).

I simply want the old NA back. The one where a 6th rate with a handful of upgrades can't catch and beat almost any average 5th rate in battle. Requin can have a place in that NA, but it can't be the ship it is right now. Nerf it to balance, not to uselessness. There is a difference.

Edited August 20, 2018 by William Death

[Aster]

If its not just a RVR game then removing it from shallow RVR where it is pay to win because no shallow water ship can beat it (literally the definition of pay to win) shouldn't be an issue. It can be like the Hercules being a pretty over powered ship for what it is but being far less destructive to one aspect of the game. 

The requin is what the old Hercules was in shallow water port battles. If the requin has to be left in shallow water port battles then it needs a pretty hefty BR increase to reflect its power over other shallow ships.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Aster

[z4ys]

5 minutes ago, William Death said:

...

But why create special mechanics only for le requin and not for all ships?

For example why i cant shoot yards on a square rigger but why demand it for the xebec?

Why "Lateen sails suffer from a "bad tack" when the mast interrupts the foil shape." but square rigger can still sail with same force backwards?

5 minutes ago, William Death said:

*Watches @z4ys get all defensive of his beloved Requin* 

I am just against those double standards . Nerf sailforce on requin but let my bellona fly 15.5kn with spanish rig

Nerf hammocks on requin but let me build a 200 crew prince

Edited August 20, 2018 by z4ys

[Lovec1990]

1 minute ago, Aster said:

If its not just a RVR game then removing it from shallow RVR where it is pay to win because no shallow water ship can beat it (literally the definition of pay to win) shouldn't be an issue. It can be like the Hercules being a pretty over powered ship for what it is but being far less destructive to one aspect of the game. 

this is a lie simple quite a few 6th rates can beat requin but they wont becouse players do not even try 

[Barbancourt]

7 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

this is a lie simple quite a few 6th rates can beat requin but they wont becouse players do not even try 

"can" is a very very low bar

[William Death]

1 minute ago, z4ys said:

But why create special mechanics only for le requin and not for all ships?

For example why i cant shoot yards on a square rigger but why demand it for the xebec?

Why "Lateen sails suffer from a "bad tack" when the mast interrupts the foil shape." but square rigger can still sail with same force backwards?

 

I didn't suggest creating a special mechanic as the only solution. Again, read it. I said "Give Requin weak yards (they have hitboxes just like topmasts and topgallant masts) that can be shot away, reducing sail area for that mast. Or make the sails extra vulnerable to both ball and chainshot damage to simulate a yard being damaged or partially broken."   You and I both know that the dev team has more important things to do right now than go through all the ships in NA, give all yards hitboxes, and create a graphics model for the way each yard falls. Ever notice how each ship's masts fall differently? Different graphical demasting models for each ship. I'm no coder, but I can't imagine that is anything quick or simple to do, especially when some ships have over 12 yards each multiplied by X ships (we're up to...what...40-50 ships now?)...yeah. I doubt that'll be put in the game anytime soon. Be nice if it was though.

So, as a work-around: weaker sails for the Xebec to represent the weaker yards. You don't need that on a square rigged ship because losing a yard there was not as devastating as losing one on a lateen rigged ship.

 

A square rigger cannot make the same speed in reverse as it does in forward. Bow at 0° in relation to the wind, sails fully backing, depowered, powered, dancing on the capstand...best I've gotten on a square rigger was like -6-7kn and not usually that much. That is on a ship that does 12+ straight downwind when going forward. Your comparison doesn't hold water (or wind, as it were).