Le Requin Testing and Feedback

[admin]

7 hours ago, Palatinose said:

 

Every frigate has it's use. Well, had

Until the move to more historical sail plan based curves? And changes in turning based on hull data?
Or until when?

[Raf Van Boom]

Until spanish rig changes where the elite version makes bellonas achieve 14 kn and ingers can achieve 15.5, sure it makes effort to craft such a ship but the firepower disparity between any of those frigates and let's say the bellona is huge.

You have to use the french rig on those frigates or you get demasted, and if you put french rig on them then you will be run down and lose any natural speed advantage.

That said, I love the Renommee, L'Hermione, Belle Poule, Essex but their weak masts are a liability and they're simply bad ships without mast thickness and hp upgrades. Add to that the fact that 3 of the above don't even have chasers, well it's a killer if you want to have a chance in PvP against a decent player.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Le Raf Boom

[Aquillas]

34 minutes ago, admin said:

Until the move to more historical sail plan based curves? And changes in turning based on hull data?
Or until when?

• 1v1, a 6th rate xebec would kill all 7th and 6th rate ships: they just place a rigging shock and board. I think I handle nicely the small ships, I know that I can resist a while, but not 90 minutes. And I know that there is no escape way from a Requin, unless you are far, downwind, and not in a cutter, a Lynx or a Privateer. If the hunting team is composed of a Requin plus a Hercules, as we see it more and more, there is no escape way, even for a Bermuda / Bermuda / cotton sails / Art of ship handling Pickle.
• 1v1, a 6th rate xebec would kill all 5th rate frigates.
• 1v1, a 6th rate xebec can kill all 4th rate frigates (by out-turning, decrewing and boarding), but this needs some skill in manuallay handling the Requin's sails. Without skill, 1v1, the xebec can easily escape all 4th rate frigates.
• Even bigger ships are at risk, because the Requin can stick to the big ship hull, being sure not to be hit by canon fire (her hull is too low on sea), and scrapping the big ship with 32pd carronades.
• No trader has a chance to escape a Requin, unless being empty and downwind at the beginning of the fight (but Requins never tag that way).

@Licinio Chiavari, @Casanova Moderne you are a specialists. Do you confirm?

Edited August 16, 2018 by Aquillas

[Hethwill]

You talk in absolutes. I hope you are absolutely certain of it all. I am sure specialists can confirm.

But, let's contest some of those...

First of all... All comes down to OW tag and initial battle positions. But THAT can be said about every single ship in the game.

Second, Xebec and Hercules combo cannot chase several ships on a very sharp broad reach angle. 

There are traders which can escape a Xebec while carrying cargo at 70% capacity.

 

What the Xebec has, and this is undeniable, is a very forgiving skillset. It allows many mistakes to be made and the ship to be handled care free.

Her masts are fairly weak. Long 6 pounders at 250m will break them in less than a dozen hits. Imagine what 32 pounders will do...

Her thickness and HP are maybe too high and at sharp angles she can bounce a lot of shot <---------- this feels weird. But the same can be done in a Lynx by the way. That look in yer face when a 42 pounder glances the side of the Lynx 😁

 

 

[Tom Farseer]

22 minutes ago, Aquillas said:

1v1, a 6th rate xebec would kill all 5th rate frigates.

Make that a "could", maybe.
I killed a xebec (Sayid, not really a noob/bad player imo) before in a fir/fir Indiaman. Granted there was some luck involved (leaks for the win :D). But I also had him at half structure when I sank him by putting 8 leaks in him. I was pretty beat up too. He would have needed two more full  broadsides to sink me, I would have needed one more to sink him without the leaks. I can provide a screenshot later if you want. Not on my PC at home atm. That was before the recent nerfs. Now imagine how that fight would have gone had I been in a T/Wo Endymion or something like that...

[HachiRoku]

29 minutes ago, Aquillas said:

1v1, a 6th rate xebec would kill all 5th rate frigates.

This is incorrect. Although I do think the ships sailing curve is still to strong it will not kill all 5th rates. 2 captains of equal skill is how you measure a ships performance and I challenge the best captain you have in a requin to fight me in a trinco without mods or perks on both ships to make it interesting. I would even do it with a suprise because i'm thinking the smaller the 5th rate the easier the requin is to kill because of the turn rate difference. I am not defending the ship however because it is still to strong like many other small ships are. 

[Bluetooth]

11 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

This is incorrect. Although I do think the ships sailing curve is still to strong it will not kill all 5th rates. 2 captains of equal skill is how you measure a ships performance and I challenge the best captain you have in a requin to fight me in a trinco without mods or perks on both ships to make it interesting. I would even do it with a suprise because i'm thinking the smaller the 5th rate the easier the requin is to kill because of the turn rate difference. I am not defending the ship however because it is still to strong like many other small ships are. 

Spot on.

This is also the problem at the moment.

The Requin struggles against all 5th rates sailed by competent captains.

Most of these ships (Herc and Requin) are sailed by vets with (normally) great mods which also skews the ships 'natural' level.

I would wish for the Requins hull to be weakened a bit so a lot of people would find it harder to sail in and it could be more specialized .

And I hate seeing nationals in such an iconic pirate ship.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Crow

[Hethwill]

49 minutes ago, Crow said:

And I hate seeing nationals in such an iconic pirate ship.

Given the model we have is actually one ordered by la Marine Royale... I...can't....even...

Wait... what !?... pirates !?...

🙄

[Palatinose]

2 hours ago, admin said:

Until the move to more historical sail plan based curves? And changes in turning based on hull data?
Or until when?

Until mast thickness and HP changes and ofc the addition of the Herc. Hercules is better now after tunings. Still she is making most 5th rates obsolete. Why? Turning in relation to bow-to-stern-length, firepower, sailing profile, base speed, chaser amount (compared to other 5th's).

I hope we can soon bring out a Herc report based on multiple battles we used it on the OW - let me collect some screenies. Currently it is opinion vs opinion. Imo the Herc is the bigger problem currently than the Requin. This ofc also depends on the pov. Newbies and coast guards will tell a different tale as it is tremendously annoying (= very emotional) to be unable to catch such a ship, when hunters just pick (mostly) easy targets and disappear then. Yes this has always been a case and will always be a case, Xebec is the new fir/fir Surprise.

Xebec is much easier to encounter/or to escape from now though imo. I still struggle heavily with the pirate rig refit adding only boni to this ship.

[Hethwill]

That would be great !

Given the nature of OW and unknown Permanents/Knowledge books&encyclopedias, could those mock-up battles be run with basics or no equipment ?

Awesome if so. Thanks.

[Palatinose]

1 minute ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

That would be great !

Given the nature of OW and unknown Permanents/Knowledge books&encyclopedias, could those mock-up battles be run with basics or no equipment ?

Awesome if so. Thanks.

Both. We tried biggest broadside weight as well as only 12pd carronades with pen mods or 9pd medium guns or all 18pd carronades. We had the basic hull, basic carpentry basic strong sail combo as well as northern carps/navy hull/elite british. I'm pretty sure we always sailed AOS, Carpenter Combat Reports and Winged-out-Ballast, some reload/precision mods.

Though I have to add, that we leveled the ship in pvp only (you might be a fan of the new player experience ;)) 

[Hethwill]

hmmm newcomer can't access anything really, just what is on the Admiralty - the mean baseline average. But sure, always good to have a motif to drive the testing, eager to see the videos/screenshots.

o7

[Aquillas]

Another important thing that does not appear in ship data (speed, turn rate, HP, etc) is the low hull profile on water, making the xebec a difficult target to aim. For being efficient, you have to reduce the distance down to be in range of her carronades. You are not obliged to do so against a Surprise.

[Hethwill]

Change focus to 250m. Stick to that. Aim at the far rail.

Takes practice, but players are starting to adjust.

[Licinio Chiavari]

Good day all. I see a lot of stuff.

I'll try to keep all in good order.

@admin

I would not underline too much sailing profile realism. There's a resemblance with reality, that's still well afar.

Just to underline: no sailing ship/boat with any rigging is faster at close haul than at broad reach. None. Period.

Even in modern boats top speed is attained somewhere between beam and broad. Only exceptions could be super fast racing boats that could get higher speeds around beam due to apparent wind effects. Definately not a relevant exception.

This opens the way to first error: schooners being slower at broad reach than close haul (privateer?).

Secondly: granted the closest angle to the wind, closing more will not slowly slow down the boat/ship. It will (almost) stop her. The braking is so strong you'd feel as you turn a few extra degrees into the wind.

Thirdly: realism should mean that no square rigged would be able to tack in less than some (ingame) minutes, granted a true tall ship tacks (depending on size and crew) in 10-20 minutes. And this not to talk about square rigged ship "close haul" tightest angle: in reality we are talking about may be 80°. Often even broader.

@Aquillas

Thank you to for the title.

Yes. 6th/7th rates are easy preys even if some (snow, not-heavy rattle, prince), due to high downwind speed or very  high turning rates, can be very annoying IF well captained.

I usually prefer hunting 5th rates. Their main defense is, at the moment, determined defender perk (I lost count of ships saved by it) that obliges me to stern camp first. This could be interesting, still against a skilled enemy gives him time to work my hull, or sails or masts. Time I havent usually inside enemy safe zone.

Both at you and @HachiRoku

I fought against any 5th rate a lot of times. In the end the most difficult are the nimblest (not strangely). Endys are easily camped, trincos more or less too. P.Frigs too, but can easily run away with the wind. Surprises are, well, surprises, very often because they could tack during boarding push into the wind  Same goes with Hercules... But Hercules has 2 weaknesses: no DD protection, and bowsprint easily breakable. So I find it easier than Surprises.

Again for Hachiroku: a Requin without at least pirate rig refit simply doesnt work. Just to underline that requin is (again) mainly a mod issue.

@Palatinose

I agree totally: Hercules are a far bigger balancing issue for the game as a whole than Requin.

The problem is Requin terrible "troll-ship" attitude but the real balance breaker among 5th rates is Hercules.

On the other hand. Requin requires experience and practice to master; behaving totally different from other ships, she could be difficult for some to handle properly. Set this aside, the problem is that requires an experienced captain on the other side to counter her.

So she can look super OP to majority of casuals. I would have next to zero fear to fight against a Requin in any 5th+... Simply because I know what she'll try to do. For majority is plainly true pain and troll.

Stopping for now this walloftext still "ceterum censeo" we need to totally nerf/balance both stat wise and economy wise the damned true game and balance breaker: the mods!

Edited August 16, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari
couple typos

[HachiRoku]

8 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

Trincomalee - still powerful frigate, but used less and less by players because of no stern chasers. 

 

the trinco is one of the most popular ships in the game and good the way she is. Until the requin was added the chaser were not an issue. Requin was is naval actions biggest mistake and never have been added. 

[o Barão]

2 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

the trinco is one of the most popular ships in the game and good the way she is. Until the requin was added the chaser were not an issue. Requin was is naval actions biggest mistake and never have been added. 

The problem is not the fact that have been added. In fact it is a good thing to have different playstyles, different ships. The problem is the balance. If the ship had came balance since the beginning we wouldn't be here talking so much about this ship.

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, Banished Privateer said:

Chasers became a huge issue with sailing profile changes, raking changes and chain power. The fact I can sit on your stern and use my front guns to wipe your crew, guns and you can't do shit to me is funny. Requin has nothing to do with it really.

I have never had that issue with the trinco and have sailed her long enough. The requin is a problem because of the intercepting speed she is capable of. In a trinco for example you have 0 chance of getting any range because its faster at all angles. Sure straight downwind maybe no but you can just zig zag and do 14 knots.

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, no one said:

The problem is not the fact that have been added. In fact it is a good thing to have different playstyles, different ships. The problem is the balance. If the ship had came balance since the beginning we wouldn't be here talking so much about this ship.

admin has stated the dlc ships will remain good to be worth their money so they will never be balanced I guess. Fact is the ship as it is now is a gankers wet dream and open sea solo hunting is impossible now. Keep in mind I pvped against pvpers and not seals. I have been driven from the game because I lost around 10 ships to DLC ganks in 2 weeks compared to 1 ship a week maybe pre dlc patch. Without solo hunting I see no reason to play. 

[o Barão]

Just now, HachiRoku said:

admin has stated the dlc ships will remain good to be worth their money so they will never be balanced I guess. Fact is the ship as it is now is a gankers wet dream and open sea solo hunting is impossible now. Keep in mind I pvped against pvpers and not seals. I have been driven from the game because I lost around 10 ships to DLC ganks in 2 weeks compared to 1 ship a week maybe pre dlc patch. Without solo hunting I see no reason to play. 

" admin has stated the dlc ships will remain good to be worth their money"

Source? Because if that is the case i can consider the option to quit playing. 

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, no one said:

" admin has stated the dlc ships will remain good to be worth their money"

Source? Because if that is the case i can consider the option to quit playing. 

can't remember and don't take that as a direct quote. Doesn't matter what he said or didn't say because the ships cannot stay the way they are because of the uproar. You're not Donner btw?

[Lovec1990]

9 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

admin has stated the dlc ships will remain good to be worth their money so they will never be balanced I guess. Fact is the ship as it is now is a gankers wet dream and open sea solo hunting is impossible now. Keep in mind I pvped against pvpers and not seals. I have been driven from the game because I lost around 10 ships to DLC ganks in 2 weeks compared to 1 ship a week maybe pre dlc patch. Without solo hunting I see no reason to play. 

well based on hard data devs get atm their statistics do not show any of the two is OP but they say they need 2 more months too situation stabilise and they have real data based on witch they will decide if new DLC ships will come or DLC ships will be stoped from being released

[Licinio Chiavari]

All the same.

Requin Requin Requin.

Mast sniping, super modded ships, Surprises stern camping 1st rate to the death, hull hugging... All fine. Only Requin is the issue.

NEVER NERF THE DAMNED MODS (that will solve 90% of Requin balance coupled with making her 5th). Right!?!?

Because if books/mods get nerfed and we get back to 1rep/battle old rich vets will not able to over power others? Or they'll be too fearful to lose their gold shiny ships with 25+ mil upgrades on due to a small group of normal players on normal ships. Right!?!?

Until I will not see the people giving up super modded super ships I will be really happy to see them whining for the Requin. Really: Requin forum whiners are 90% rich vets unable to pwn anymore freely.

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, Lovec1990 said:

well based on hard data devs get atm their statistics do not show any of the two is OP but they say they need 2 more months too situation stabilise and they have real data based on witch they will decide if new DLC ships will come or DLC ships will be stoped from being released

 "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. quoted from wikipedia

[Lovec1990]

Just now, HachiRoku said:

 "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. quoted from wikipedia

Depends on what gains each side has here  DLC ships changed the game so elites have too adapt or leave perhaps there is no lies in admins hard data, but only obstacle in said elites plan to return game to state they were used too it?