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Le Requin Testing and Feedback


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3 minutes ago, admin said:

The beauty of NA battle design shows that you can take ANY naval battle happening from 1650 until 1830 and find almost the same outcome in our game

You can recreate them but that doesn't mean its the way things are done in-game... You can recreate any battle in total war but battles in total war don't work like in real life. Question: When the British almost sank certain french ships at Trafalgar, did the french ships turn away and come back into battle with 50% Armour again 40 min later? You think the french and Spanish would have ever gotten anywhere with chaining if the british could repair rig to 100% every 15 min?

There is no design in naval actions combat anymore because its complete and utter nonsense. You cannot choose to have half your combat ultra realistic and the other half full arcade. It doesn't work. There is no pvper that I know of that says the combat system is anywhere near balanced atm. 

At least back in the day you tried to have a hardcore combat system like PROMISED on the steam page. There is nothing hardcore about the combat system no matter how much you try to convince people otherwise. I have played hardcore games all my life and naval action is FAR from it :) 

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Also you always use examples of things that happend in real life like a certain small ship hiding under the guns of a bigger ship. These things were extremely rare and the reason we know about them is because the could not be recreated in every battle like in naval action. DD perk was also added to the game because of exceptions in real life that can be recreated in every single battle. Keep in mind that if crew on a real ship are stopping a ship from boarding they did not sail and reload guns at 100% at the same time. 

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1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

Also you always use examples of things that happend in real life like a certain small ship hiding under the guns of a bigger ship. These things were extremely rare and the reason we know about them is because the could not be recreated in every battle like in naval action. DD perk was also added to the game because of exceptions in real life that can be recreated in every single battle. Keep in mind that if crew on a real ship are stopping a ship from boarding they did not sail and reload guns at 100% at the same time. 

I made a suggestion here how the mechanics would work to stop hugging based on how much crew you had in boarding preparation.

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26590-sterncamping-realism-possible-solution

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There are extreme examples in history that prove that, as a rule, certain things should not happen alas they did. What we should question is - can we simulate them in NA combat ? I did share two examples from history that I find really difficult to mimic in NA but that doesn't mean I will not be able to do in 1 battle out of 10k, but only in the future.

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26577-privateer-pulteney-against-the-xebecs/

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26578-trader-with-a-rover-heart/

 

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1 minute ago, dark lord rediii said:

60 vs 1 sol ok but atm 1 SOL has a problem vs 1 requin if the SOL has no carros in the back

what they don't understand is that it was not some magical balance in real life that made this possible. It was the people. You cannot design these kind of things to be possible. 

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11 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

There are extreme examples i history that prove that, as a rule, certain things should not happen. What we should question is - can we simulate them in NA combat ?

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26577-privateer-pulteney-against-the-xebecs/

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26578-trader-with-a-rover-heart/

 

My point is that you need to design the ships to handle correctly relative to each other. A snow, herc, surprise did not have the turn rates they had relative to a Connie for example. You cannot design a system where it is possible to sink a 4th rate with a 6 rate.  A trinco cannot stern camp a bellona or a victory. This is a perfect example of how it should be. A 6th rate can stern camp a trinco with ease. The jumps in turn rates are to much over all. 

Edit: just let the captains decide what should be possible or not. Not the combat system

Edited by HachiRoku
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15 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

There are extreme examples in history that prove that, as a rule, certain things should not happen alas they did. What we should question is - can we simulate them in NA combat ? I did share two examples from history that I find really difficult to mimic in NA but that doesn't mean I will not be able to do in 1 battle out of 10k, but only in the future.

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26577-privateer-pulteney-against-the-xebecs/

http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26578-trader-with-a-rover-heart/

 

The second example you give is a classic case of Determined Defender in action, and should be used any time anyone complains that DD is not realistic. 😁

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Maths.Hull length, speed, water pressure, turn radius, turn speed. That's what rules a ship, not the opposing ship model.

But you have a BIG score point - warning shots would happen. Enemy ship would never be allowed to close as much like we have in the tag.

So instead of "world of balancing things by comparing one with one" it is better to try a new OW RoE where the inner circle is expanded, so you never ever spawn inside warning shot distance.

 

1 minute ago, Archaos said:

The second example you give is a classic case of Determined Defender in action, and should be used any time anyone complains that DD is not realistic. 😁

There's a major difference. A 70 crew ship does not put 70 crew on the boarding screen for calculation ;)

He did place 20 at first, and then reinforced in phases. The defender was freaking determined and had no other choice but to fight with everything they had. 

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13 hours ago, Hullabaloo said:

I totally agree, unfortunately it will be along wait: To quote admin:

"Hard numbers in the DLC wont change. Ship stats mentioned in store might change ONLY if ALL ships are drastically rebalanced over time. (eg all ships will lose 1 knot of speed or gain 1 knot of speed for general game balance). 

It's here to stay, they can't fix this one. Most of the people I had been playing with have uninstalled already.

I get slated cos I keep repeating this in chat and in the forums and am told I am talking nonsenseThere is consensus that the DLC has broken the game, but many have been slow to realise that this is permanent. :(

 

1 hour ago, z4ys said:

2exvee.jpg

looks similar :D

 

Xebec pre and after hotfix pirate rig speed.

 

 

I joined NA a month ago and before i played WG products for almost 4 years.  From this i know that WG never, never, never nerfs a premium. Buff can happens if needed. The problem here is the same since  players spent real money , however this bring some serious problems because the game mechanics in NA.

First i want to congratulate the devs for the hotfix about the elite pirate rig. This solve one of the two issues i have with this ship. ( the other one is the firepower ) 

 

Now let's imagine what could be done to balance other ships with this two.

- All 5th rates needs to have shallow water sailing. The only way to save Bahamas.  

- Many ships needs to have a buff in 1 knot of speed. The hotfix solves the problem with the Requin but there is still the Hercules. 

- Many 5th rates will need a buff to the turn radius.

- The Requin will still have 250 crew and 32 pd carronades so in order to have some balance, the 6th rates will need a major buff in HP and armor thickness. This will create a snowball effect to the others ships.

- The BR will need to have a major rework to all ships in game to be balance to this DLC ships.

 

To prevent future problems with premiums ships i suggest to test them in the PVE server for a long time , against bot and in duels. If not in a few years, after many balances every time a new premium is release we will all sail in Ferraris , in a very arcade game of sailing.

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Le Raf Boom said:

99 galleys and i see quite a few got sunk too, that's versus a ship of the line that's anchored in port.  Please do make this possible in NA, it seems the SoL didn't get rageboarded so quickly huh?

 

3Nv3Q0g.jpg

 

 Looks more like a few of the galley's fireshipped the bigger ships tbh.

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Requins can turn on a dime with 60% sails and 10-20% structure, then just sail straight upwind. Bravo @admin, well balanced. Not to mention the hitboxes for the rigging. If you're going to put something like a xebec in game and not represent the oars (how they got upwind) as something that can be neutralized then make the magic sails more vulnerable.

Edited by Potemkin
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On 8/9/2018 at 3:04 PM, z4ys said:

2exvee.jpg

looks similar :D

 

Xebec pre and after hotfix pirate rig speed.

 

 

still to fast 

13 knots max

and 24 pd carronade

he can/may not be faster than a trader lynx [13.8] (game balance vs other  ship types )

the requin is not a small ship and not a speed boat(its latine)

also, the acceleration is 2x the lynx and that's odd

but thats my opinion...

Edited by Thonys
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55 minutes ago, Thonys said:

still to fast 

13 knots max

and 24 pd carronade

he can/may not be faster than a trader lynx [13.8] (game balance vs other  ship types )

the requin is not a small ship and not a speed boat(its latine)

but thats my opinion...

All traders are slower . 

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18 hours ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Also note that ships were not at Full sails, nor would they sharp corner the wind at Full sails. Alas, we do "fly" the wind at all times, including fierce battle, at Full.

Maybe that's why they are sailing that slow in a confined space. We have, yet, nothing like that in NA.

I still never understood why folks aren’t forced into battle sails for battles.  If you at full sales you should have accuracy and reload penalties.  Also make it so you can only repair in balttle sales.  This will kil the guy running constantly healing his sails.

the same goes to DD make it only active if you are in board prep.

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5 hours ago, no one said:

All traders are slower . 

Do trader use elite pirate rig refit or elite  spanish rig refit?

By the way it's the same speed mods as before.

Elite pirate rig + art of ship handling + copperplate + navy hull. Instead of blaming the ship blame mods + stacking

 

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5 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Do trader use elite pirate rig refit or elite  spanish rig refit?

By the way it's the same speed mods as before.

Elite pirate rig + art of ship handling + copperplate + navy hull. Instead of blaming the ship blame mods + stacking

 

the max speed on the parameters says 14.88 but in reality, it does 15.4 

what else is wrong?

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Sail force bonus is not represented on the hard info speed. Only the percentile values bonus.

Always been like that. Is not wrong as the force value and resulting ship speed is not a linear thing but changes according to angles to wind, so it may give X or Y depending on angles or the yards, etc.

 

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54 minutes ago, Thonys said:

the max speed on the parameters says 14.88 but in reality, it does 15.4 

what else is wrong?

For better understanding. Here is a video what Spanish rig does to a pirate frigate (no other speedmods) that's up to 14% speed bonus. What other mod gives so much speed? Now think about what elite refits will do.

 

Edited by z4ys
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1 hour ago, z4ys said:

Do trader use elite pirate rig refit or elite  spanish rig refit?

By the way it's the same speed mods as before.

Elite pirate rig + art of ship handling + copperplate + navy hull. Instead of blaming the ship blame mods + stacking

 

I am not blaming anything. I just said that all traders are slow. The thing is the other member complained that the requin can catch a lynx upwind ( the other member not me ) And for me that is how it is supposed to be . All traders are slow in comparison with others warships except the lynx. Now there is a warship with the speed upwind to catch him and for me that is how it supposed to be. Don't make confusion. I am not blaming anything in this case.

Edited by no one
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14 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

My proposal to balance this ship:

-Much weaker masts.

-Way less sail HP

- 24lb carros instead of 32.

-Extra damage to crew from any type of cannon fire (ball, charge, grape...)

- Not able to equip crew upgrades or skilbooks.

-Less thickness.

Yes I wanted the 24 pd carronades to bring some balance, but because it uses the 9 pd cannons it gets the 32 pd carronades. 

Now extra damage to the crew yes please. It feels strange trading broadsides with frigates and lose few men.

I can't give you an opinion about HP and thickness without comparing with the others 6th rates 

Not able to equip crew upgrades or skillbooks?????? Why?????

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52 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

My proposal to balance this ship:

-Much weaker masts.

-Way less sail HP

- 24lb carros instead of 32.

-Extra damage to crew from any type of cannon fire (ball, charge, grape...)

- Not able to equip crew upgrades or skilbooks.

-Less thickness.

and lower sailors number

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I was fighting only once against Requin, so far, in PB at Nassau, and personally did not redeem her, but from what i have heard, this ship is way too powerful.

Remember the Wasa discussion? I guess many of us would wish those times back ;), because Wasa was maybe overpowered a bit, but nothing compares to Requin broken, sick performance.

Let me get this straight now..We have a ship in game, which can be bought with real money, and if lost, you get another one 24 h later..Nothing bad about it.

But...

1. This ship has too much crew, it can easily board each 5th rate, if you don`t have DD perk. (So don`t touch DD perk, as long as this cancer ship isn`t "nerfed")

2. Losing a bowsprit does not affect the sailing/turning capability.

3. Losing almost 50% of sails does not affect MUCH sailing capability.( can easily run away close hauled, like nothing happened at all)

4. Broken hitbox (thanks to @Banished Privateer, this issue maybe causing the inability to demast easier the Requin?)

5. ALMOST impossible to demast Requin(because of the broken hitbox?) And this is in my opinion, one of the most "unrealistic" features so far.

Generally, as many said in this topic...

 Ship is WAY TOO POWERFUL, which is unrealistic, and bad for the game, especially for new players.

Just one post above, @Intrepido made a proposal, which could probably, hopefully, solve many issues:

Requin should lose her masts EASIER. So it is either the hitbox, which is causing trouble, or her masts need to lose many many!!! mast thickness/HP percents.

Consider the concernes of your "testers" dear @admin, the overwelming performance of this ship, is in long terms not good for the game.

 

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