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Solving the griefing tagging and screening problem

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Genius solutions sometimes come unexpectedly. Maybe users proposed it before but we have not seen it for some reason.

We found the way to solve the screening fleet problem completely. The 4x modifier that does not allow griefing will be replaced by a curve formula. 

The simple explanation of the formula is this. 

Size of the group and its BR will determine the modifier (simplified explanation below)

  • To attack 25 victories you will require 25 victories
  • To attack 1 victory you can just require a cutter (exaggerated example) .

This will both solve the screening problems and also solve the solo hunter problem (who could not attack heavy solo targets because of BR difference)

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@admin this is great news!

Im on the cutter (exaggerated example :)). I see 25 1st rates anchored together. Can I still attack one of them without pulling the rest of them in? Also if Im on a 4th rate and technically could pull in 2-3 2nd rate ships, could I still do it if all 25 of them are grouped together? If yes, then which one of them will be pulled in? How is this going to be calculated? Or grouping together for increased BR will stop any of them being pulled in? Even one?

On par with "anyone should be able to attack anybody" mechanic we also asked to make pulling manual. Rank of the captain + rate of his ship + BR formula would give "total BR pull strength" that is seen together with the BR value. For example if you have 1000BR pull stenght you can attack any ship (there is no BR check for attacking one, so yeah cutter can attack 1st rate) and manually pull additional ships of total 1000BR by tagging them during attack timer. Those ships must be within the attack tag circle from the attacker.

Anyone can join battle no matter BR. Its the same as attacking one ship - no BR check.

If AI fleet where attacked initially then no player ships can be pulled. And vise versa - If player was attacked first then no AI can be pulled.

No AI can join players battles.

Instead AI hunting players based on their criminal actions would be a very welcome mechanic added in future.

 

Edited by koltes
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20 minutes ago, koltes said:

@admin this is great news!

Im on the cutter (exaggerated example :)). I see 25 1st rates anchored together. Can I still attack one of them without pulling the rest of them in? Also if Im on a 4th rate and technically could pull in 2-3 2nd rate ships, could I still do it if all 25 of them are grouped together? If yes, then which one of them will be pulled in? How is this going to be calculated? Or grouping together for increased BR will stop any of them being pulled in? Even one?

 

 

If it is far from the main group and outside of the pulling radius - its your free target (if you can sink her)

 

basically if there are 25 ships in the pulling radius. you most likely need 25 ships of good BR to attack them.

If it is a solo victory sailing its your target. try it. Griefing her consistently in a cutter is impossible - beautiful escape to port after battle will help her avoid additional attacks.

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While this is truly important for RvR, it is also a major step in the trade raiding where BR limits could be used for safe passage and force a arms race.

Seems solid. The intention to bring a fleet must be real or the risk of losing it becomes all too real :) Same with a trade run.

 

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1 hour ago, admin said:

Genius solutions sometimes come unexpectedly. Maybe users proposed it before but we have not seen it for some reason.

We found the way to solve the screening fleet problem completely. The 4x modifier that does not allow griefing will be replaced by a curve formula. 

The simple explanation of the formula is this. 

Size of the group and its BR will determine the modifier (simplified explanation below)

  • To attack 25 victories you will require 25 victories
  • To attack 1 victory you can just require a cutter (exaggerated example) .

This will both solve the screening problems and also solve the solo hunter problem (who could not attack heavy solo targets because of BR difference)

I know this is just an example above, but I hope 20 SOL can attack 25 SOL. 

So you would need 5x BR to be able to tag a larger ship 1:1, then gradually reducing to 1.25x BR.  Then 20 ships can attack 25 comparable ships.

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Well, i dont get it,   now i need a calculator to ?

if i am in a bellona and see a target , and i want to attack it, with my ten knots speed, i cant even attack an  enemy tradder snow, is that what's going to happen now 

is the snow just going to pass me, and pulls a finger at my ship...(the enemy can pass on numbers) 

if a group of 4 Trincomalees see 3 enemy bellepoules they can t go to battle because they are one short..

or if you want to flip a pb with 25 vics , and they do not show up, or they come with 10 vics you can t attack the port ..??

i am confused now..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Thonys
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I like the idea and am certainly willing to test it to see how it shapes different battle types and their fleet structures.  Would it be possible to give us the non-simple formula? And perhaps an on-screen indication, even estimated (but not enforced) client-side, whether a ship you've highlighted would result in a successful tag if attacked?

My great concern is that a complex calculation like this will make RoE difficult and unpredictable for players. A frustration that across event rules, perks, and rookie zone mechanics that has certainly led to a lot of moaning from players.

But like I said, I appreciate the thought and am looking forward to test the idea.

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10 hours ago, koltes said:

@admin this is great news!

Im on the cutter (exaggerated example :)). I see 25 1st rates anchored together. Can I still attack one of them without pulling the rest of them in? Also if Im on a 4th rate and technically could pull in 2-3 2nd rate ships, could I still do it if all 25 of them are grouped together? If yes, then which one of them will be pulled in? How is this going to be calculated? Or grouping together for increased BR will stop any of them being pulled in? Even one?

On par with "anyone should be able to attack anybody" mechanic we also asked to make pulling manual. Rank of the captain + rate of his ship + BR formula would give "total BR pull strength" that is seen together with the BR value. For example if you have 1000BR pull stenght you can attack any ship (there is no BR check for attacking one, so yeah cutter can attack 1st rate) and manually pull additional ships of total 1000BR by tagging them during attack timer. Those ships must be within the attack tag circle from the attacker.

Anyone can join battle no matter BR. Its the same as attacking one ship - no BR check.

If AI fleet where attacked initially then no player ships can be pulled. And vise versa - If player was attacked first then no AI can be pulled.

No AI can join players battles.

Instead AI hunting players based on their criminal actions would be a very welcome mechanic added in future.

 

this seems a harder problem to solve than it first looks. Like Elric's, Tonys & Wraiths "getting too complicated" with calculations would be difficult to deploy and would need constant tweaks after patches etc. Kolten's idea of AI hunting I like but not sure the coding in NA is good enough. Think about when you use fleet or even just missions or EPICs after time ai is not fast enough, but it would be a brilliant mechanic to add...

 

Norfolk

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Can we have like an example list of different scenarios and what would be needed to tag them, so we can kinda work out a bit what we'll need to tag certain groups. I'm guessing screening will now be favoured by sending in groups of 25 ships with preferably high BR as they can tag everything but can't be tagged easily by other ships.

I would realy like bigger screening battles, would be more fun.

 

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10 hours ago, ElricTheTwo said:

I know this is just an example above, but I hope 20 SOL can attack 25 SOL. 

So you would need 5x BR to be able to tag a larger ship 1:1, then gradually reducing to 1.25x BR.  Then 20 ships can attack 25 comparable ships.

 I like the general idea but hope the curve is a little bit more forgiving. e.G. a 20 SOL fleet should be able to attack a 25 SOL fleet

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What I understand is that coming port battles (e.g. lineship pb) will still consist of 25x 1st rates vs 25x 1st rates while the screening fleets will consist of >25x 1st rates vs >25x 1st rates. Dunno if I would like that.

Edited by Guest

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Nation A brings 40 Ships (25 for PB and 15 for screening) and Nation B is the same amount and BR.

The typically situation atm 25 Ships of the defenders waiting in harbour and 15 screening outside.

The attacker have all their ships sailing as a big ball formation

Defence Screeners are senseless -> RIP Screening -> Auto Win for high populated nations/alliances

Edited by Sven Silberbart
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8 hours ago, Thonys said:

Well, i dont get it,   now i need a calculator to ?

if i am in a bellona and see a target , and i want to attack it, with my ten knots speed, i cant even attack an  enemy tradder snow, is that what's going to happen now 

is the snow just going to pass me, and pulls a finger at my ship...(the enemy can pass on numbers) 

if a group of 4 Trincomalees see 3 enemy bellepoules they can t go to battle because they are one short..

i am confused now..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

im the same confused of you ....

and if a guy as one indiaman and 2 reno in fleet who can Attack this fleet? A solo frigate pirate ( in example ]  cant ?

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Sehr geehrte Herren Kapitäne, Entwickler und Admins,

das ist ein weiterer Schritt in die Richtung weg von interessanten Seegefechten - hin zu portbattles (was immer man von portbattles halte). Meine Leute und ich können verstehen, dass die Leute begeistert davon sind, weil sie "Naval Action" als ideal ansehen, eine Landkarte zu bereinigen in portbattles mit Sprungpunkten oder weil sie sich gerne als Linienschiff-Kapitän sehen. Das ist zu akzeptieren. Naval Action bewegt sich unserer Meinung nach weiter in die Richtung starrer regionaler Eroberungskämpfe und somit weiter weg von der historischen Begebenheit.

Stellen wir uns die Frage, warum zu Beginn des 19. Jahrhunderts das Linienschiff ein Auslaufmodell war und die Fregatte nicht umsonst als "Königin der Meere" immer mehr tatsächliche Kriegsaufgaben gewann. Die Beantwortung ist einfach: Das Linienschiff war zu teuer, zu unflexibel und zu unbeweglich und die Einsatzmöglichkeiten waren zu begrenzt. Das bringt uns zu Naval Action und seinen Problemen. Durch die letzten Entscheidungen und verbundenen Updates wurden Wirtschaft, kleinere Schiffe und Fregattenklasse zugunsten der portbattles und Linienschiffe abgewertet. Meiner Meinung nach wurden die tatsächlichen Probleme, ein vielschichtiges Spiel mit vielen Entwicklungsmöglichkeiten des Spieler zu entwickeln (Pirat, Schmuggler, Händler, Aufklärer, alleinoperierender Schiffskapitän, Flotteneinsätze, portbattles) nur noch auf portbattles fokusiert.

Naval Action besaß bereits einmal interessante Komponenten, wie das Abfangen von Flaggen und Flotten, und auch die Wirtschaft wurde durch die Einführung von unterschiedlichen Schiffbaumaterialien und Schiffseigenschaften interessant. Es wurden zwar neue Fregatten implementiert (wie auch Linienschiffe), aber Schmuggler- und Handelschiffe besitzen gerade einmal 2 (!) akzeptable Modelle.

Naval Action besitzt sicherlich aktuell viele Baustellen. Das wichtigste Prinzip aber, den Spieletestern eine breitgefächerte Testmöglichkeit anzubieten, wird leider durch das Linienschiff-porbattle-Prinzip ausgehebelt. Wen wundert es, dass die Spielerzahlen im Gegensatz zu den früheren Zeiten deutlich geschrumpft sind und Stammspieler pausieren, weil es "zu langweilig" wird.

Deswegen unsere und meine Bitte an die Spieleentwickler, an die Admins, aber auch an die Spieler mit ihrer recht guten Community: Bitte seht in Naval Action nicht nur ein portbattle-Spiel! Gebt der Vielschichtigkeit mehr Chancen!

Vielen Dank für eure Aufmerksamkeit. Und danke auch, wenn nicht gleich "aus Prinzip" gegen meinen Beitrag gewettert wird, sondern über den tieferen Sinn nachgedacht wird! Ich bin gerne bereit, exakte Vorschläge für die Verbesserung des Spiels zusammenzutragen. Das mache ich gerne via E-Mail oder auch hier für Entwickler und Spieler. Allerdings würden diese meinen jetzigen Beitrag sprengen.

Euer Jakob Kettler

 

 

Dear gentlemen, captains, admins and developer, 

this is another step in the direction away from interesting sea battles - towards portbattles (whatever you think of portbattles). My people and I can understand that people are enthusiastic about it because "Naval Action" as an ideal view, a map to clean up in portbattles with leaping points or because they like to see as a line ship captain. This is acceptable. In our opinion, Naval Action is moving further in the direction of rigid regional conquests and thus far away from the historical event. 

Let us ask ourselves why, at the beginning of the nineteenth century, the line ship was an end-of-life model, and the frigate did not gain more and more real warfare as a "queen of the seas". The answer is simple: the line ship was too expensive, too inflexible and too immobile and the possibilities were too limited. This brings us to Naval Action and its problems. Through the recent decisions and related updates, economy, smaller ships and frigate class were devalued in favor of portbattles and line ships. In my opinion, the actual problems of developing a multi-layered game with many development possibilities (pirate, smuggler, dealer, reconnaissance, single-ship captain, fleet inserts, portbattles) were only focused on portbattles.

Naval Action already had interesting components, such as the capture of flags and fleets, and also the economy became interesting by the introduction of different ship building materials and ship characteristics. Although new frigates were implemented (as well as regular ships), but smugglers and merchant ships have only 2 (!) acceptable models. 

Naval Action certainly has a lot of construction sites. The most important principle, however, to offer a wide range of testing possibilities to the players, unfortunately, is leveraged by the line-ship porbattle principle. It is no wonder that the number of players has shrunk considerably compared to the earlier times, and that the main players pause because it becomes "too boring". 

Therefore our and my request to the game developers, to the admins, but also to the players with their quite good community: Please see in Naval Action not only a portbattle game! Give more chances to the complexity! 

Thank you very much for your attention. And thank you also, if not equal "out of principle" against my contribution is wafted, but is thought about the deeper sense! 

I am very willing to put together detailed proposals for the improvement of the game. I like to do this via e-mail or here for developers and players. However, these would blow my current contribution.

Yours Jakob Kettler

Edited by Jakob.Kettler
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44 minutes ago, Jakob.Kettler said:

 

Da stimm ich dir nicht zu Jakob, ein Kampf mit 25 Linienschiffen gegen eine kleine Screeninggruppe von 5-10 Schiffen ist einfach nur demotivierend weil nichts passiert. Soein Kampf ist langweilig und man verliert einfach nur 1 1/2 Stunden während man auf Segel schießt. Die Änderung führt dazu dass Kämpfe entstehen (bei großen Gruppen!) in denen wirklich beide Seiten kämpfen können.

So wie ich das lese könnt ihr dann immernoch zu 5. eine Gruppe von vielleicht 10 Taggen. Aber ihr könnt nicht zu 10. eine Gruppe von 25 taggen.

edit: Um so kleiner die Gruppe ist um so größer kann die BR Differenz also sein

 

I don't agree with you Jakob, a battle with 25 lineships against a little screening group of 5-10 ships was/is demotivating as hell because nothing happens in this fight. It is just boring and a waste of 1 and a half hours. This change leads to the fact that battles happen when every side wants to fight. This will make battles more interesting because it is not just a game of shooting sails and then leaving the battle and closing NA.

As i read it you can still tag a group of 10 with a group of 5 but you can't tag a group of 25 with a group of 10.

 

edit: the smaller the group the bigger the BR difference can be

Edited by rediii
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3 hours ago, rediii said:

Da stimm ich dir nicht zu Jakob, ein Kampf mit 25 Linienschiffen gegen eine kleine Screeninggruppe von 5-10 Schiffen ist einfach nur demotivierend weil nichts passiert. Soein Kampf ist langweilig und man verliert einfach nur 1 1/2 Stunden während man auf Segel schießt. Die Änderung führt dazu dass Kämpfe entstehen (bei großen Gruppen!) in denen wirklich beide Seiten kämpfen können.

So wie ich das lese könnt ihr dann immernoch zu 5. eine Gruppe von vielleicht 10 Taggen. Aber ihr könnt nicht zu 10. eine Gruppe von 25 taggen.

edit: Um so kleiner die Gruppe ist um so größer kann die BR Differenz also sein

 

I don't agree with you Jakob, a battle with 25 lineships against a little screening group of 5-10 ships was/is demotivating as hell because nothing happens in this fight. It is just boring and a waste of 1 and a half hours. This change leads to the fact that battles happen when every side wants to fight. This will make battles more interesting because it is not just a game of shooting sails and then leaving the battle and closing NA.

As i read it you can still tag a group of 10 with a group of 5 but you can't tag a group of 25 with a group of 10.

 

edit: the smaller the group the bigger the BR difference can be

 

first of all,  i understand your issue:

but i must say your defending screening group made a big mistake then..by not defending the 25 pb group

you can not blamming the attacking screen group that they attack you..

 

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1 minute ago, Thonys said:

first of all,  i understand your issue:

but i must say your defending screening group made a big mistake then..by not defending the 25 pb group

you can not blamming the attacking screen group that they attack you..

No worries, same happened to brits and pirates too already ;) 

That this is/was possible is just a flaw in the mechanic because both sides don't have fun with shooting sails for 1 and a half hours

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