Le Requin Testing and Feedback

[Vernon Merrill]

2 hours ago, Sir Loorkon said:

Have you tried to go into the shallow water area in a Snow. Meet a Requien with an average player, get rammed, rageboarded, game over in 5 minutes. The Snow itself is an OP ship, but it stands no chance at all against a Requien. All shallowships are obsolete now. 

Snow can escape straight downwind after the Xebec got patched.  Try it in apirate-rigged Prince, though.  Ugh.  Lol

[Hethwill]

The mail packet that sailed from Lisbon to Brazil to bring the news of the defeat of Napoleon in Portugal was a two mast lateen caïque - pretty much flushed xebec suited to much shallower waters even.

Had to evade french corsairs, pirates and fight south Atlantic storms. She arrived safely.

This is the replica, built in 2008.

[admin]

we are working on the rebalance patch that will address some under appreciated vessels making them stronger and more competitive.
we will also tune the ship curves a bit. 
 

 

 

[Lovec1990]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

we are working on the rebalance patch that will address some under appreciated vessels making them stronger and more competitive.
we will also tune the ship curves a bit. 
 

 

 

So you will force balance things so it will be easier for 6th rates to stand up to 5th rate?

This is wrong soon it will be question why bother beyond 6th rate

 

[Malachi]

Now that´s a lovely little vessel, thanks for showing, Hethwill.

On 8/20/2018 at 12:23 PM, Thonys said:

well many navy used the reguin . not only pirates even nationl russian navy and spanish navy used it.

And the Danes. And the Swedes.

The evolution of xebec-type ship was different in the northern countries, though, as they eventually became square-rigged (or mixed like polacres).

Here are two examples from the swedish armens flottan:

 

 

The first one is from the 1760s, the last from the late 1780s. Like most of their mediterranean cousins, they also had extra yards onboard, so the lateen sails could be swapped for square sails when circumstances demanded a change.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Malachi

[admin]

1 minute ago, Malachi said:

Now that´s a lovely little vessel, thanks for showing, Hethwill.

And the Danes. And the Swedes.

The evolution of xebec-type ship was different in the northern countries, though, as they eventually became square-rigged (or mixed like polacres).

 

Any theories why this transformation happened? What was the negative of the pure lateen rig promoting the additions of square sails?

[Percival Merewether]

1 hour ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Metas. As Z posted, 80% of previous PBs were rattles.

#antimetaleague

There's a difference.... the Rattlers are available to any player willing to craft/buy one from the market..... It's not like that with the Req, is it..? As it stands, you have to buy the DLC to be competitive - luckily we will get rebalancing of other vessels soon.

[Hethwill]

9 minutes ago, admin said:

Any theories why this transformation happened? What was the negative of the pure lateen rig promoting the additions of square sails?

Square sails deploy more sail area, overall, in the same hull size ?

[Hethwill]

4 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

There's a difference.... the Rattlers are available to any player willing to craft/buy one from the market..... It's not like that with the Req, is it..? As it stands, you have to buy the DLC to be competitive - luckily we will get rebalancing of other vessels soon.

Eco was too hard, right... so crafting had to become easier, more accessible, in safety, and so on?... being so easy now to get money in game ( and even at free cost by capturing ships from the NPC ), please tell me the major difference. We are not in 10.x patch anymore, sadly. DLC ships have come to bring even less reliance on the eco - guns and repairs needed, and now suddenly eco is important ... ? Give me a break... *sigh*

[Bluetooth]

6 minutes ago, admin said:

Any theories why this transformation happened? What was the negative of the pure lateen rig promoting the additions of square sails?

Maybe the nationals had made lots of Spanish rigs by mistake?  😁😁

[Malachi]

On 8/20/2018 at 1:29 PM, admin said:

Any theories why this transformation happened? What was the negative of the pure lateen rig promoting the additions of square sails?

Versatility, I guess. And the big lateen sails, especially on the main mast, were difficult to handle and required a large crew. With the introduction of topsails, those lateens became smaller and easier to manage. That most probably came at a price, though, as the performance close-hauled most probably suffered. As with everything else when sailing ships are concerned, it´s very difficult to improve one aspect without making another one suffer.

 

That´s a greek-ottoman xebec at the end of the 18th century, showing the mix of sails quite nicely.

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Malachi

[Percival Merewether]

10 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Hold on for a second, initially Heavy Rattle BP was event only and at first only 1 nation had access to it, then 2 nations. Same happened to L'Ocean and GB nation had the only L'Ocean ship builder on the entire server. That's how meta was flawed. On the other hand Heavy Rattle is just an imaginary ship like Pirate Frigate. Both of them pushed back their original template, normal rattlesnakes are not present anymore, very rare view while in past they were very popular hunting ships. Pirate Frigates diminished normal Frigates. Sad truth about imaginary boats making their original ships inferior. 

And the same happened with the Aggy... Yes, yes.. I know that you love to disagree with me but there's really no need to - my point stands, the Req is a DLC ship, the other ships never were.

8 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Eco was too hard, right... so crafting had to become easier, more accessible, in safety, and so on?... being so easy now to get money in game ( and even at free cost by capturing ships from the NPC ), please tell me the major difference. We are not in 10.x patch anymore, sadly. DLC ships have come to bring even less reliance on the eco - guns and repairs needed, and now suddenly eco is important ? *sigh*

*sigh* I never metioned eco.... if you quote me, respond to what I actually said *sigh*

All the bloody ships could be redeemables for all I care, my point is that the Req is NOT available to everyone... it requires you to take money out of your own wallet to remain competitive in the game which you have already purchased... *sigh again*

Edited August 20, 2018 by Percival Merewether

[Hethwill]

13 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

the Rattlers are available to any player willing to craft/buy one from the market..... It's not like that with the Req, is it..?

I hate to debate what text on a screen really means, as I cannot read minds. All I see is ship needs eco vs ships needs no eco. There's nothing else.

[z4ys]

38 minutes ago, admin said:

Any theories why this transformation happened? What was the negative of the pure lateen rig promoting the additions of square sails?

A xebec with scare sails is called polacca

source : The Barbary Pirates 15th-17th Centuries by Angus Konstam

 

As I said many times before. We dont have slipstream and reduced performance when sail is pressed against the mast. Any ship suffers such rl issues ingame thats why all our vessel perform actual to good or in chase of schooners to bad.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by z4ys

[admin]

Just now, z4ys said:

A xebec with scare sails is called polacca

source : The Barbary Pirates 15th-17th Centuries by Angus Konstam

i think this could be an answer for the lateen rig drawback that will balance the vessel. 
the question is this - what is that drawback (what do they mean by more versatility and what is lack of versatility for the lateen rig) as initial research and basic sail physics application show that lateen sail is a good all rounder.

more crew on sails and vulnerability of one big sail (harder to replace, easier to destroy) could be this explanation as well. 

[John Jacob Astor]

33 minutes ago, admin said:

Any theories why this transformation happened? What was the negative of the pure lateen rig promoting the additions of square sails?

Modern fore-and-aft rigs tend to have deep keels of one type or another.  Which help keep the ship from being blown sideways at certain points of wind.  So here's a question.  Do fore-and-aft rigs in the game model the absence of a deep keel? 

There also might be issues with the physics of the in-line sail as the ship size increases.  Lateral forces might become immense.  Wooden masts secured by hemp can only be so tall.

[NethrosDefectus]

47 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

So you will force balance things so it will be easier for 6th rates to stand up to 5th rate?

This is wrong soon it will be question why bother beyond 6th rate

 

Where did he say that?

[Percival Merewether]

20 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

He means basically:

Avarage player can get one without $$$ vs Spenders get one free for $$$ and the one for $$$ currently is superior.

There is only "real life eco" reference here Might be hard to spot for people with big pockets that spend a lot on gaming.

Thanks, hard for Hethwill to comprehend.. he'll realise eventually.

I, and many other players I'm sure; will prefer to keep in-game eco and real-life eco seperate.

[Malachi]

4 minutes ago, John Jacob Astor said:

Modern fore-and-aft rigs tend to have deep keels of one type or another.  Which help keep the ship from being blown sideways at certain points of wind.  So here's a question.  Do fore-and-aft rigs in the game model the absence of a deep keel?

Most fore-and-aft riggers in our timeframe were trimmed heavily by the stern to counter this effect. It was not unusual for a 60' cutter to have a 12' draught aft. That´s more or less the same draught as on a 100' feet frigate.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Malachi

[z4ys]

19 minutes ago, admin said:

i think this could be an answer for the lateen rig drawback that will balance the vessel. 
the question is this - what is that drawback (what do they mean by more versatility and what is lack of versatility for the lateen rig) as initial research and basic sail physics application show that lateen sail is a good all rounder.

more crew on sails and vulnerability of one big sail (harder to replace, easier to destroy) could be this explanation as well. 

Lets for example look at windsurfing sail. You can change performance of the sail by adjusting  the shape

With the sail on the ground I push down on the sail with both hands. The sail foil should be just touching the boom on the other side. If it touches too easily I tense the outhaul more, if it doesn’t reach the boom I release some outhaul.

This also depends on the wind. If the wind is light you can release the outhaul a little to make the sail curve more round. If the wind is stronger or you feel overpowered you can tense the outhaul more to make the curve flatter so the sail doesn’t pull as much.

If we pull too much on the outhaul, the sail will be very flat, which means that it will lose the profile. This means that all the advantages of having a wing shape are lost and all you are left with is a wall for a sail.

For vey strong winds this can help take some power out of the sail so that you can get back to the beach but the performance is greatly compromised. It is also not very good for the life of the sail.

Not enough outhaul

If we do not pull enough outhaul the sail will have too much of a curve. This is bad for two reasons:

Firstly, we will not be able to go upwind as much as the angle of attach when on a close haul is steeper.

Secondly, the battens will not be able to change the side of the mast easily. If they don’t change onto the lee side we have a bad sail profile which is not efficient. And if they have to be passed on to the other side with a lot of force, the end of the batten sleeve will wear out fast and there will come a moment when you have the batten poking out next to the mast.

Source: http://howtowindsurf101.com/how-to-tune-a-windsurf-sail/

--------------------------------------------------------

Applying that to the game. The xebec performs to good sailing with all sails pressed against the mast. Thats why some pictures show the lateen sail on differend sides. To keep at least some performance and make it possible to change heading in a fight. All 3 yards on one side was only used on long sails were it was certain that maneuvering will not happen.

And square riggers still perform to good when sailing backwards. They would suffer the same effect

Schooner have due to the sail combination an advantage where one sails feed the other sail with wind making them actual perform better close to the wind.

 

But that are all rl physics which the game does not consider currently making it so that in theory some ships perform better as they should.

Edited August 20, 2018 by z4ys

[John Jacob Astor]

3 minutes ago, Malachi said:

Most fore-and-aft riggers in our timeframe were trimmed heavily by the stern to counter this effect. It was not unusual for a 60' cutter to have a 12' draught aft. That´s more or less the same draught as on a 100' feet frigate.

Wondered how that worked.  But the nature of the counter does suggest there might be practical limits to how big the ship can be.

[z4ys]

Just now, Banished Privateer said:

I don't understand why downwind Xebec doesn't mix the sail placement with left-right-left position for example, because the heel makes the ship performance and feeling terrible. I believe that 1 sail shifted on other side downwind would counter some of the heel and propulsion power should be very similar downwind.

its not possible because all sails have different sail force. To equal the force you would have to let loose some ropes. (not ingame) Autoskipper wouldnt be able to sail the xebec and constant rudder would have to be applied.

[Fluffy Fishy]

Its worth pointing out that it was pretty common for xebecs and galleys to carry both square and triangular sails with them, more often than not one sail would have been mounted on the yards while the other was folded into large a sunscreen to allow for the crew to get some respite from the heavy mediterranean sun, something that isnt often shown on plans or models. The sails would be swapped in and out depending on the weather conditions to allow for the best possible speed or agility. The possibility of mounting xebecs with the best sail for the conditions was one of the major draws of having the live yard and helped offset the difficulty in raising it.

Its also worth noting that a pollacre and a xebec are two quite different ships, its weird that source mixed them up. Perhaps its more of a conceptual thing?

I'm pretty sure i've got some pictures of rigging up a xebec with a square and triangular sails somewhere, i will find them if I haven't posted them already and try and post them later. Sadly they aren't particularly high def though.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Fluffy Fishy

[z4ys]

12 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

Its worth pointing out that it was pretty common for xebecs and galleys to carry both square and triangular sails with them, more often than not one sail would have been mounted on the yards while the other was folded into large a sunscreen to allow for the crew to get some respite from the heavy mediterranean sun, something that isnt often shown on plans or models. The sails would be swapped in and out depending on the weather conditions to allow for the best possible speed conditions. The possibility of mounting xebecs with the best sail for the conditions was one of the major draws of having the live yard and helped offset the difficulty in raising it.

Its also worth noting that a pollacre and a xebec are two quite different ships, its weird that source mixed them up. Perhaps its more of a conceptual thing?

I'm pretty sure i've got some pictures of rigging up a xebec with a square and triangular sails somewhere, i will find them if I haven't posted them already and post them later. Sadly they aren't particularly high def though.

From a polacre-rigged xebec it was an easy transition to a full polacre. A point occurs where polacre xebecs become 'polacre-settees,' which were lateen rigged on the fore and mizzen (i.e. xebec with a polacre rig). By the late 18th century polacre-xebecs were soon fully ship-rigged and became true polacres, although some people merely call them xebec-frigates. However it is easy to see how the polacre could have developed from the xebec, considering the similar lines and features. The polacre has virtually the same hull shape as a xebec with all the standard features. The only difference was that the polacre was slightly larger than a xebec, so it is probable that the polacre was derived from larger xebecs, which were probaly rigged 'a la polacca' to supplement thier size.

Source: http://www.oocities.org/xebecinc/info2.html

Edited August 20, 2018 by z4ys

[Licinio Chiavari]

Requin flaming keeps going.

Some notes.

Lateen rig, from only a performance perspective, was superior almost in any respect to square rigged. Not by chance it was the step before bermuda rig being this the modern rigging.

What limited the use of lateen rig was "material technology": you end up having 1 big sail on a mast. So the load per line is very high. Moreover lateen rig (same material technology issue) had problems to be reduced in case of strong winds/gale. Square rig is far simpler to reduce. This allowed, with that time material technology, to get very big ships with a lot of sails, opening or folding each one depending on circumstances. The higher use of lateen rig in Mediterranean and not in high seas, comes from this problem coupled with wind direction stability: in Ocean sailing you very often have a strong prevalent wind, so you can find a proper route at your best (broad reach usually) point of sailing with limited further wind changes. In Mediterranean prevalent winds are not the same... as they are not close to coast: exactly were lateen (and bermuda) rig were mostly used.

This from a sailing technology perspective.

 

Moving back ingame.

- I do agree DLC ship should not be allowed in PBs leaving the most PvP intensive engagement (as PB should be) to built ships.

- I think this should be done correcting BRs almost of all ships AND setting a low limit allowed BR in deep PBs: I sincerely like the idea of some SoL smashing... BUT at the moment PBs are more kite and hide tactics... a problem we had also with Princes, now simply worst. Make Deep PBs SoL brawl and Shallow a 6th rates brawl WITHOUT requins.

- Ban Hercules from shallow waters.

- Move Requin to 5th. This would solve part of the crew stacking issues (from maximum bonus with crew space choise of +55% down to 30% and so setting; standard Requin will fall back from having 300-330 crew down to 280ish). I'd keep allowing her in Shallow waters for bare minimum sake of realism (please note that I NEVER hunt in shallow waters).

- Rework completely (logical groups) and nerf hard (force mods mainly) ALL MODS. This way Requin will end to be a bigger Prince, a bit better upwind, worse downwind. So majority of square rigged will get real chance to run downwind from her (it's already possible, still I know my requin is over 15 kts around 130° - DAMN TOO FAST). This will rebalance a lot of other ships (yes: no more flying bellonas nor uncatchable t/wo Trincos).

- Then rebalance (keeping in mind realism as an indication) all ships giving them pros and cons. 4th rate situation is plain example: Inger/Wappen have uses only as super modded raiding ships, Agamennon has some (limited) use, Connie is totally broken. Keeping 4th rate as example (1st "speed" meaning the fastest among the class, 3rd "broadside" meaning the 3rd in the class as broadside weight):

Connie: 1st speed, 1st sturdiness, 4th broadside weight, 4th turnrate;

Wappen: 3rd speed, 3rd sturdiness, 3rd broadside weight, 1st turnrate;

Ingermandland: 2nd speed, 4th sturdiness, 2nd broadside, 2nd turnrate;

Agamennon: 4th speed, 2nd sturdiness, 1st broadside, 3rd turnrate.

Same rebalance work in ALL rates, and same rebalance work in 5th rates considering frig ranking divided in 2 sub-categories (corvettes/light frigates and heavier ones - eg. Surprise, Hermione, Renomee and Trincos, Endys etc...).

For sake of example about 1st rates:

Victory: 1st speed, 3rd sturdiness, 3rd broadside, 1st turnrate;

L'Ocean: 3rd speed, 1st sturdiness, 2nd broadside, 2nd turnrate;

Santissima: 2nd speed, 2nd sturdiness, 1st broadside, 3rd turnrate.

Please note that summing up ranking position numbers in each strenght category of each ship (eg. Victory: 1+3+3+1=8) in all above noted examples, you get the same value in all ships: it's not by chance. A very simple indication of pro/con balancing (then we'd need hard numbers... still again, an indication).

 

Granted i'm writing anyway a walloftext AND a bit out topic too, let's add last note.

Give some love to unrated ships. Even nerfing Requin they'll keep being quite broken (a bigger crew privateer for example).

 

About Boarding: make the "game" secret (ie: I see enemy move at the end of timer - no more ping game), balance it a bit, make it a bit more understandable (official numbers behind could help also players to make reasonable and detailed suggestions)...

AND CANCEL THE CRAPPY DETERMINED DEFENDER (may be convert it on a longer pulling timer function of two crews ratios: the more defender crew, the longer pulling - so more chances to not get a boarding starting; the more attacker crew, the shorter).

 

PS: I'd propose, granted majority of DLC ships owners would agree, to change redeemable as a tradable redeemable PERMIT not the full ship on a longer CD (72hrs?).

Some ingame cash for DLC owners (like in a lot of games - EVE) avaibility of all ships to all in game. And no damage to ingame economy adding more and more DLCs.

THIS WOULD SOLVE THE DLC SHIP IN PBs ISSUE TOO.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari
PS & typo