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Cetric de Cornusiac

First Rates should become rare and very expensive = maintenance, baby!

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first rates are not cheap to make, of course, the longer you play the game the more stuff you accumulate so it does eventually become affordable. I don't see where you got the 'cheap' part.  What's the problem anyway? You usually don't seem them unless it's a port battle.

Edited by Le Raf Boom
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No to maintenance.

I agree that 2nd and 1st rates should be more expensive, but I also argue that 3rds and 2nds should also be more.....powerful? 

I do align with @rediii when he states that he wants to create the game balance around 3rd rates being the main contender, but I don't believe adding a maintenance tax on 1sts is the rught approach.

I'd much rather see ship stats like HPs and BR get rebalanced (BR for port battles) to encourage players to bring out different ships. 

Another balance should absolutely be a big look into ships and their gun loadouts along with a cannon rebalance.

All of this would take time though.

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22 minutes ago, Glorgir said:

I know they are just Pixels, but damn it, they are my Pixels, and I earned them.

Believe me, I know what you mean. I have the same feeling when I craft an Endymion. And it is much more fun to use than big dick symbols, if moderator excuses that expression for a change to 'fat duck'.

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Again, hard data records could help the discussion. A full provisioning list for a given cruise would act as a baseline.

This is a historical painting example of what the open world in NA looks like, at squadron level - Nelson at Santa Cruz.

A couple 74s, frigates and support vessels. We all see this daily in NA :) 

Ships were built, crew was hired, repairs furnished, per ship/player. What other costs were to be supported by Admiralty/Player for this assignment ?

 

image.png

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4 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

No to maintenance.

I agree that 2nd and 1st rates should be more expensive, but I also argue that 3rds and 2nds should also be more.....powerful? 

I do align with @rediii when he states that he wants to create the game balance around 3rd rates being the main contender, but I don't believe adding a maintenance tax on 1sts is the rught approach.

I'd much rather see ship stats like HPs and BR get rebalanced (BR for port battles) to encourage players to bring out different ships. 

Another balance should absolutely be a big look into ships and their gun loadouts along with a cannon rebalance.

All of this would take time though.

1st rates have too much HP in my oppinion. They were strong but 3rd rates were able to fight them, in this game they cant at the moment

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7 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

I feel that it ruins the immersion that there are so many first rates around - it's still a mystery to me why the devs decided to add three 1st rates, two 2nd rates but only one 3rd rate model. There has to be more diversity in the 3rd rate segment.

There are 3 third rates as far as I know, the Bellona, the Third Rate and the Wasa, are these all the same model, not being sarcastic, just dont know if they are or not.

10 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:
27 minutes ago, Glorgir said:

If this is implemented I can see some peoples reactions, "OK, Ive lost my Santi, cant get another one for 22 days, lets Play something else, till my new one is ready"

So let's dismiss the idea completely then - that's much better than coming up with a counter argument... What if the wait was less? could be a week? could be four days? I'm looking for a compromise that would allow you to do exactly this:

I wasnt dismissing , the idea that a Nation has a set amount of first rates, but who has to then craft the replacement, is it the Player who lost it, or the Nation to whom he belongs, why would crafters even stockpile the mats to craft these ships, the Nation might not lose one for 3 or 4 months, again who is going to tie up their warehose Slots just on the offchance that a first rate will be sunk.

Everyone paid the same amount for the game, everyone has the right to expect that when he has qualified by rank experience and crafting, he can sail the same ships as everyone else.

This is after all a game not a historical reenactment

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this is impossible due to Human nature... the devs are not gonna try to do this again(they tried it before).

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14 minutes ago, Le Raf Boom said:

I don't see where you got the 'cheap' part.

You did not understand my critics about the perceived inflation of First Rates in the game. Anyone can have one, after being able to command enough crew, which is only a matter of time. It is not difficult to make money as well, so all this combined leads to the ahistorical inflation of many, too many First Rates. As someone said, and I agree, they thus lose their "extraordinary" character.

So that makes them 'cheap'. Easy access, easy replacement, full warehouses spilling out materials to build them... I insist on using the word 'cheap'.

Or, if you care to look on the 'used ship market', a L'Ocean is available for about 5 million. Clans give them out for free to their members if expansion is on the schedule. Cheap.

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19 minutes ago, Le Raf Boom said:

first rates are not cheap to make, of course, the longer you play the game the more stuff you accumulate so it does eventually become affordable. I don't see where you got the 'cheap' part.  What's the problem anyway? You usually don't seem them unless it's a port battle.

1st rates are cheap to make. A small clan can already build yeveral 1sts a day.

 

3 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Again, hard data records could help the discussion. A full provisioning list for a given cruise would act as a baseline.

This is a historical painting example of what the open world in NA looks like, at squadron level - Nelson at Santa Cruz.

A couple 74s, frigates and support vessels. We all see this daily in NA :) 

Ships were built, crew was hired, repairs furnished, per ship/player. What other costs were to be supported by Admiralty/Player for this assignment ?

 

image.png

1sts and 2nds are too efficient, thats why every PB fleets core is a core of 1st rates while it should be a core of 3rd rates.

 

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Just now, rediii said:

1sts and 2nds are too efficient, thats why every PB fleets core is a core of 1st rates while it should be a core of 3rd rates.

That would be the historical order of battle yes. But we digress.

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1 hour ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

An idea would be to give each nation a maximum number of First Rates, distributed as slots between all clans of that nation. So, if there would be a max number of 25 First Rates for one nation and six clans with, say, more than ten active members in the last month, each clan would get the Royal allowance to contribute four First Rates and the rest (1) by one of the smaller clans. Maybe this would lead to less port battles or just another composition of battle fleets participating there. A single port battle would gain importance. That's fine, because so often they really did not take place in real life.

That's a fine idea!

But imo it's downsides are the exclusion of single players which want to have a 1st rate too.

 

Possible solutions imo might be:

 

1. Limit the number of SOLs every player can possess - like i mentioned above (and in the attached link in more detail).

 

2. 

45 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

I'd suggest giving players a 1st rate allowance - as a rear admiral you can redeem one every month and will be lost when you lose your ship. That means players are only "permitted" to lose one 1st rate per month.

... or week, or ... - that would need to be discussed and maybe tested!

 

What i would like to add is this:

Make that allowance nescessary to get a 1st rate in every way!

a ) You want to craft a 1st rate? Fine, where is your allowance?

b ) You want to buy a 1st rate in the shop? Fine, you need an allowance!

c ) You want to trade a 1st rate from player to player? Ok, ... but where is your allowance?

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Quick and Dirty fix, imo.

A 1st rate, by its sheer volume, occupies way more dock real estate than a schooner.

Think about it. How many brigs would you be able to dock in the harbour space you could dock a Victory only ?

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4 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

That would be the historical order of battle yes. But we digress.

thing is, limiting 1st rates isnt a good thing. Making them better or nerfing 1sts and 2nds until 3rd rates can compete should be the way to go.

I say: 1sts and 2nds already have more crew and firepower than 3rd rates. Give them only minimal more HP. Let tbem stay slow and thick high damage outputs but give them almost the same HP as 3rds

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4 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Quick and Dirty fix, imo.

A 1st rate, by its sheer volume, occupies way more dock real estate than a schooner.

Think about it. How many brigs would you be able to dock in the harbour space you could dock a Victory only ?

2, 3.  In reality a 1st rate wouldn't take much more room than a 3rd.  They were built upwards, not necessarily outwards.  HMS Victory in Portsmouth is surprisingly small.  Might be shorter than Constitution...

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5 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Quick and Dirty fix, imo.

A 1st rate, by its sheer volume, occupies way more dock real estate than a schooner.

Think about it. How many brigs can you dock in the space you could dock a Victory only ?

Also like that!

15 minutes ago, rediii said:

1st rates have too much HP in my oppinion. They were strong but 3rd rates were able to fight them, in this game they cant at the moment

Yes, that's certainly true and should also be fixed!

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14 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Again, hard data records could help the discussion. A full provisioning list for a given cruise would act as a baseline.

This is a historical painting example of what the open world in NA looks like, at squadron level - Nelson at Santa Cruz.

Ships were built, crew was hired, repairs furnished, per ship/player. What other costs were to be supported by Admiralty/Player for this assignment ?

https://savoringthepast.net/2013/03/22/18th-century-sailors-food-ships-provisions/

This gives a quick breakdown of provisions for the Bellona and a Sloop, I believe for 4 months

https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=HMS-Victory

A Little Information as to the cost Setup and amount of sails etc carried on the Victory

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1 minute ago, Oberon74 said:

2, 3.  In reality a 1st rate wouldn't take much more room than a 3rd.  They were built upwards, not necessarily outwards.  HMS Victory in Portsmouth is surprisingly small.  Might be shorter than Constitution...

Sorry, Connie is 62m.  Vic is 69m

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I kind of like the idea of admiralty giving you 1 first rate a month. That way both casual players and hard core players can both sail them.  Not everyone has the mega millions that those who play 15+ hours a week do. 

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8 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

2, 3.  In reality a 1st rate wouldn't take much more room than a 3rd.  They were built upwards, not necessarily outwards.  HMS Victory in Portsmouth is surprisingly small.  Might be shorter than Constitution...

You could make the dockspace available a matter of expanse:

The square-meters a ship would require for docking could be better suited for the intended purpose of Hethwill - but would need more complicated coding.

Edited by Navalus Magnus

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I think some suggested before making different docking requirements based on rate. For example, 4th rate and below, 1 slot, 3 rate 2, 2nd rate 3, 1st rate 4, or something similar. 

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2 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

I know I will start here an unpopular suggestion. Many guys just love the feeling of sitting in fat ducks blowing up everything up in range of their multiple max cannon decks. Nothing wrong with the feel of invincibility and power. But how often and how easy? And at the expense of what other game content?

--

Let's face it: the enormous costs of building and maintaining a first rate ship-of-the-line is not portrayed in the game properly. Anyone with a dockyard large enough and sufficient warehouse stock can build one or several SOL a day, especially when he has the support of his clan. We see in the hand of some major clans more First Rates than whole nations had in 18th century, and this is just one theater of operations (the Caribbean), while those nations had to distribute their naval power over several theaters, mainly Europe. So what we get in the game is inflation of First Rates - determining always the same maxed out composition of battle fleets in port battles. And as the SOL are so cheap, we even see ganking groups consisting of SOLs, which is absolutely ridiculous nonsense in naval authenticity. Why? Because SOL are for navy battles only and they were extremely expensive. Their lacking speed did not make them suitable for economy war.

The inflation of this overuse of fat ducks has undesirable side effects: other ship ranks become less significant. Almost nobody cares to build 2nd, 3rd rates - not to speak of 4th rate and lower, because fat ducks are so cheap and give the maximum fire power. So versatility suffers from the overuse. Tactics melt down to just brute force and nothing else matters. Who brings in more First Rates will win, who produces more a day keeps the upper hand.

Short glimpse back into history: First Rates were so expensive that just for being able to add one to the royal fleet, all merchants and businesses of a city would collect their money and sponsor a single ship, which would then gratefully bear the name of that city, for example "Ville de Paris". Navy reformer Duke de Choiseul went around France to encourage cities and regions to follow the example so the King would have enough ships. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Ville_de_Paris_(1764)

800px-Vaisseau_le_Ville_de_Paris_en_1764

If historically correct, a reduction of number of SOLs in Naval Action would altogether prove to be profitable for gameplay. We would see more options for setting up fleets for various purposes and other rates than the First would see a renaissance.

How could this be implemented?

An idea would be to give each nation a maximum number of First Rates, distributed as slots between all clans of that nation. So, if there would be a max number of 25 First Rates for one nation and six clans with, say, more than ten active members in the last month, each clan would get the Royal allowance to contribute four First Rates and the rest (1) by one of the smaller clans. Maybe this would lead to less port battles or just another composition of battle fleets participating there. A single port battle would gain importance. That's fine, because so often they really did not take place in real life.

Another idea, could be parallel with the first idea mentioned, has been touched already in this forum and I am all for it: having to pay maintenance for the largest ships, no matter if they are moored in docks or 'parked' in ship market. So you think twice before building them en masse. First Rates must cost daily money, and Second and Third Rates also, but to a lesser degree.

Third idea in that context is to introduce a cost inflicting each time to the owning clan when their First Rate gets sunk. They were highly prestigious symbols of power. A loss of a First Rate ship-of-the-line was felt as national tragedy. Not like in this game, where you shrug your shoulders and simply build another one. This 'prestige loss' could be expressed by deduction of marks, victory or PvP, to all clan members whose clan had that national slot for a First Rate which got sunk. A malus for the clan comparison ladder. Effect: eagerness to keep the First Rate alive at all costs. Smaller ships would be commissioned to protect the valuable First Rate - that's absolutely historic. Second Effect: enemy is even more keen on sinking First Rates, because then it would have consequences for the losing side beyond just another ship gone.

Niet!

We need Victory Mark to craft this ship.

Edited by Shrez

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3 minutes ago, Glorgir said:

There are 3 third rates as far as I know, the Bellona, the Third Rate and the Wasa, are these all the same model, not being sarcastic, just dont know if they are or not.

The Bellona and the 3rd rate is the exact same model, the only difference is the texture.

Third rates normally mounted 64-80 guns making the Wasa questionable as a 3rd rate, but also a 4th rate putting it somewhere in the middle (due to the 32lbs). The Agamemnon is definately a 3rd rate but classified as a 4th rate with lower HP and thickness.

We only have one unique 3D model in the 3rd rate class in-game that is actually useful in large actions.

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28 minutes ago, Glorgir said:

https://savoringthepast.net/2013/03/22/18th-century-sailors-food-ships-provisions/

This gives a quick breakdown of provisions for the Bellona and a Sloop, I believe for 4 months

https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=HMS-Victory

A Little Information as to the cost Setup and amount of sails etc carried on the Victory

Many thanks sir ! Will look into the first one ( hope it is not only sustenance supplies but everything ).

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