First Rates should become rare and very expensive = maintenance, baby!

[Batman]

1 hour ago, rediii said:

1st rates have too much HP in my oppinion. They were strong but 3rd rates were able to fight them, in this game they cant at the moment

But why sail a 1st rate when 3rd rates get equal HP and thickness?

In reality a 3rd rate had no problem brawling a 1st rate, true. Even little Agamemnon engaged Santissima at Trafalgar.

Ingame, we have 42pd cannons for 2nd and 1st rates, which gives them a massive advantge in broadside weight compared to 3rd rates. While Victory was equipped with 42pd cannons when commissioned, the RN (and all other Navies, too) got rid of them. To heavy in terms of weight, crew and gunpowder usage. 32 pounders achieved similar results with less weight, gunnery crew and gunpowder usage.

Removing the 42 pounders from the game would probably be a start towards balancing 1st and 3rd rates.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Batman

[z4ys]

3 hours ago, Sella22 said:

The number of first rates that can be fielded by a nation could be defined by a ratio of ports owned. It will give more meaning to ports.

not limited in ow but pb access. But we have to check how to deal with zerg^^

[Teutonic]

1 hour ago, Batman said:

But why sail a 1st rate when 3rd rates get equal HP and thickness?

In reality a 3rd rate had no problem brawling a 1st rate, true. Even little Agamemnon engaged Santissima at Trafalgar.

Ingame, we have 42pd cannons for 2nd and 1st rates, which gives them a massive advantge in broadside weight compared to 3rd rates. While Victory was equipped with 42pd cannons when commissioned, the RN (and all other Navies, too) got rid of them. To heavy in terms of weight, crew and gunpowder usage. 32 pounders achieved similar results with less weight, gunnery crew and gunpowder usage.

Removing the 42 pounders from the game would probably be a start towards balancing 1st and 3rd rates.

Would love to see how it would play out if the Santi and Ocean were forced to 36/32pd guns and Victory kept the 42s...or maybe you are correct in saying that the 42pders are the main issue of this balance problem. I wonder if taking a look at the cannons themselves, maybe requiring more crew to man them, or adjust the stats? in any event, I think this would be "part" of the right direction for a healthier balance.

and as @Intrepido says, 2nds are underperforming, or at least seem to under perform (pavel for example just always seems to be outclassed). Generally I believe the re-balance of lineships in order to create diversity in ship use and lowering the overpowered nature of 1st rates will require more than just a glance at them. It may need some serious time investment that the Devs don't seem to have right at this moment (as they are finalizing the UI i suspect?).

If we could come up with a quick fix that would also be in line with future changes, that seems to be the best outcome. In that aspect @Christendom's suggestion to limit 1sts to only be able to dock in region capitals and only be used in region capital port battles could be the quick solution. I suppose the only concern left with a fix like that would be OW PvP usage of them when combating around ports that would not allow 1st rates inside ( 1st being a screen force while the PB fleet cannot enter with 1st rates).

[Navalus Magnus]

I think a better ballance between the ships of the line would be fine, but should be achieved by carefully adjusting the stats (hp and thickness mostly). Every vessel should have it‘s place and 1st rates should stay superior to every other class when it comes to big engagements.

The task to find the sweet spot isn’t that easy and that’s why a limit for SOL should also be set imo - you might not want to have 1st rates nerfed that much, that 3rd rates stand too good chances against them in big fleet battles.

[Sir Texas Sir]

6 hours ago, z4ys said:

i would start with changing more guns = more everything.

The reward should be tied to difficulty and not to dmg dealed. Currently why should I use a frig when i can get way more of everything when I use a SOL?

 

I always thought one way to limit RATES in battles would be to limit 1st rates to only regional capitals.  Maybe have some of them limit to only 2-3rds if they are smaller regions.  Than even have some regions limited to only 4th rates only.  The other thing is to have 1st rates only able to dock up in capital ports of a region if owned by the nation.  NO SOL can stay docked up in Freetowns. Why would these freetowns want a nations big of war ships docked up in there ports together like a giant melting pot ready to explode?    This will limit folks to using more frigates and not so much using the SOL's cause they do the most damage in game all the time.  

[Hethwill]

Naval Bases.

[Red Dragon 13]

 

1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I always thought one way to limit RATES in battles would be to limit 1st rates to only regional capitals.  Maybe have some of them limit to only 2-3rds if they are smaller regions.  Than even have some regions limited to only 4th rates only.  The other thing is to have 1st rates only able to dock up in capital ports of a region if owned by the nation.  NO SOL can stay docked up in Freetowns. Why would these freetowns want a nations big of war ships docked up in there ports together like a giant melting pot ready to explode?    This will limit folks to using more frigates and not so much using the SOL's cause they do the most damage in game all the time.  

This.

Plus, what if a way was figured out to make first rates usable only in Port Battles?

[Blackbrook]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

My solution would be to shift victory and combat marks towards being a proxy for the "permit" idea posted above.  No longer would you need  a victory mark to make the ship, instead you'd need a victory mark to leave port in a first rate. Combat marks could be used as currency for sailing line sihps. Non-line ships might be sailed without mark costs.

It's not a good idea to require marks to leave a port. What if you have to sail to a port where you don't have an outpost (e.g. for repairs) and you don't have required marks to sail out and no way to get those? 

Perhaps an unlimited sailing licence for one day (until maintenance) would work? You can buy sailing licences from the admiralty using different marks (or whatever they will be called) and provisions. I would require sailing licence for 1st, 2nd and 3rd rates (3rd rate licence would be much cheaper than 1st rate licence). 

I think it would be a good idea that you lose your sailing licence if your SoL sinks and then you can't buy another in a day or two. I'm quite sure the admiralty would like to know why your ship is gone and they would not allow you to sail another before they know what happened.

[Raf Van Boom]

I'm not a big fan of 1st rates, too slow and clunky for me so no problem whatsoever having them limited in some fashion.  Then again, I honestly don't see many 1st rates other than port battles and these, uhh, 'screening' fleets.

[Rebrall]

2 hours ago, Borch said:

Thats exactly the point. You do not forbid players from sailing first rates but you make it harder to choose between first and third rate. Basically first rate having superior firepower and third rate turn and speed with second rate in the middle. 

You dont need any weird artificial limiting mechanic in the game, players will make the choice.

Agree with this,

 

only thing is the victory needs to be looked at those leaks shots are broken and it should be the tanker of the 3 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Rebrall

[Rebrall]

3 hours ago, rediii said:

42 pounderd arent that big of a balancing problem. Its the HP. In brawls 3rds fall like paper. 

How does the thickness stack up can’t see atm busy working sorry “working”?

[Capt Jubal Early]

I think limiting First rates from players is a bad Idea. Limiting the places in which they could operate might have better effects.

Adjusted port mechanics so ports could be customised could include such features.

For example, fortress ports, econ ports, ship building ports, Ship of line ports etc etc all with differing levels of buildings etc allowing you to specialise your clans ports.

PS

Stop freeports from being able to berth 1st rates.
 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Capt Jubal Early

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

Another argument for giving limited slots to clans for First Rates:

The need for cooperation between clans would be dramatically improved. No more tensions and hostility inbetween clans of same nation. For better chances at port battles and fielding most of the legitimate First Rates of the nation, they would be forced to more cooperation than ever. The idea of being a nation rather than just a clan has to be enforced.

[Glorgir]

http://www.contemporarysculptor.com/hms-victory.htm

 Yet again an article stating that the 42 pounders were replaced by 32 pounders, perhaps this would be a benefit to the game, might lower the Advantages a first rate has over 2nd and 3rd rates

[MassimoSud]

I believe that all players must have the chance to own a First rate ship (this is one of the goals in this sandbox game). But I believe that today it is too "easy" to access these ships. I do not like the idea of maintenance costs, they discourage the return of players who have taken a break from the game for various reasons. I agree that the first and second rank must require many more materials and time to be build. In the future I hope there will be less first and second rate ships and when a new player will meet one of these he must have the "Whow! I want to have one" effect  (but not so soon and so easily).

[Moria15]

23 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Never played, but does everyone go tooling around in Titans in EVE?

 

Nope

Lets break that down a bit....

1)  The training required to fly a Titan in Eve is around 250 real-time days  (Eve allows training offline) and the cost of some of the training books is also in the many millions of ISK.

2)  The cost of owning a titan..  just for the components is in the order of 120,000,000,000 ISK  (120 billion)  (you will probably have to make a lot of them)

3)  The cost of fitting the titan so it can be used properly in game is around 250,000,000,000 ISK   (250 billion)  If you can find all the parts and you dont have to manufacture them.

4)  The time taken for a guild of 10 to get and make all the parts required is around 4 months.

5)  If you want to build your own then there is additional training of around 150 realtime days.

6)  Then you need a Capital shipyard with all the costs involved in that.

7)  Then you need a place to keep it, relatively safely, because there are very few places it can actually dock..  most of the time it has to be left in the open and if you are not there it can still be attacked

Having done all that.. it can then be lost in a single (large but single)  battle.

Most people fly smaller ships in Eve purely because of the economies and facilities available..  plus  flying a titan is  not a skill you just pick up by doing the training..  it's a lifestyle choice

I've been playing Eve 12 years now in a large guild and have flown a Titan once when we needed an experienced pilot for defence of a base and the Titan's owner was away on holiday.

90% of my time is in frigates  (pretty much lowest of the low) and in Mining groups flying large Industrial command ships  ( equivalent of 3rd rates I guess) and large cargo ships hauling bits around the star systems in a jump freighter.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Moria15

[Vernon Merrill]

1 hour ago, Moria15 said:

Nope

Lets break that down a bit....

1)  The training required to fly a Titan in Eve is around 250 real-time days  (Eve allows training offline) and the cost of some of the training books is also in the many millions of ISK.

2)  The cost of owning a titan..  just for the components is in the order of 120,000,000,000 ISK  (120 billion)  (you will probably have to make a lot of them)

3)  The cost of fitting the titan so it can be used properly in game is around 250,000,000,000 ISK   (250 billion)  If you can find all the parts and you dont have to manufacture them.

4)  The time taken for a guild of 10 to get and make all the parts required is around 4 months.

5)  If you want to build your own then there is additional training of around 150 realtime days.

6)  Then you need a Capital shipyard with all the costs involved in that.

7)  Then you need a place to keep it, relatively safely, because there are very few places it can actually dock..  most of the time it has to be left in the open and if you are not there it can still be attacked

Having done all that.. it can then be lost in a single (large but single)  battle.

Most people fly smaller ships in Eve purely because of the economies and facilities available..  plus  flying a titan is  not a skill you just pick up by doing the training..  it's a lifestyle choice

I've been playing Eve 12 years now in a large guild and have flown a Titan once when we needed an experienced pilot for defence of a base and the Titan's owner was away on holiday.

90% of my time is in frigates  (pretty much lowest of the low) and in Mining groups flying large Industrial command ships  ( equivalent of 3rd rates I guess) and large cargo ships hauling bits around the star systems in a jump freighter.

So, again, I don't play the game, but how many Titans would you say are in game and/or per Corporations (I think that's what they're called, right?)

[GhastlyGhost]

Maintenance sounds horrible. I dont want to do PvE. There is a lot way to decrease number of SoLs. The easiest is introducing "construction time". Its realy strange that we can build the biggest ship by only one click. Construction of 1st rate should take at least 7 days. Another step is increase materials needed to produce SoLs. And I dont belive that all players should have 1st rate. I have seen lot of them that dont know how tu use manual sails in Port Battle that lead to breaking the line.

[Moria15]

36 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

So, again, I don't play the game, but how many Titans would you say are in game and/or per Corporations (I think that's what they're called, right?)

The figures are a bit hard to come by but the latest I have seen was from 2015/16  (eve keeps a lot of stats hidden for a few years)  and for a player base of over 500,000  with a current online at any one time of about 35,000   the number of titans being built was around 20 - 25 a month with around 15 a month being lost so a net gain of around 5 - 10 a month.  Total number owned is not a figure I can find with any degree of accuracy  but it appears less than 300 overall in the same period.  The closest I could get were the reports on the battle where 85 were lost in a day and it was stated that was about 30% of the supply

However in one battle just before this period 85 were lost in a single battle, so overall the figures didn't rise much.

Since those figures there have been some changes to the game making it a little easier to get the skills so it may have increased.

Our corps/guild/clan has 275 active members with some members dating back 10 - 12 years and we have 2 in storage just in case.. both are a few years old now.  We wouldn't consider building any more unless we lost either of them and we only have about 4 pilots with the appropriate skills to fly them effectively.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Moria15

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

I still don't get it why the ultimate goal for NA should be to ride on a fat duck. It's not my goal.

We have all the variety you could think of and that's fine. However, and this has been repeated by a number of commentators, the biggest ship has to stay the rarest ship and give you awe when you meet it. It does not have to be necessarily weaker than it is now, or 2nd rates and 3rd rates stronger, it just has to become the exception. People who will command First Rates will both being honored by their nation and feel the weight of responsibility, because their performance in port battles, when there are only a handful of First Rates involved, will determine more than ever the outcome.

Isn't that honor, to be given the post  of a rare First Rate commission, by one's clan, more attractive for playing the game and staying faithful to it, than the indifference people feel now with playing around with many First Rates as they could possibly build?

I am not sure if more material requirements are the solution to thin out the field of First Rates. Clan warehouses have been piling up stuff for years and still could spill out First Rates no matter how many logs and provisions you need to have in stock for building them.

[Hethwill]

Cetric, you are right. Plenty of players have different aims  hence we must suggest and help design mechanics which give more choice to everyone, instead of funneling everyone to a choice playstyle.

 

This discussion gave me a good idea for a suggestion. Will research and we will see.

- everyone can command a 1st rate, but not everyone can command a 1st rate in Grand fleet in Trafalgar 

 

[Elric]

I would not say sailing a first-rate as particularly enjoyable.  For the most part it is a boring experience sailing at 8 knots - but it does place much more strategy into battles - split second decisions needed?  No.....  

I much prefer the shallows battles where the action is fast-paced and you have to make quick decisions - less strategy, more about execution.

If I never sailed another first-rate and was 'forced' to sail just frigates and smaller I'd be happy - and I think most players echo this same thought.

 

[Teutonic]

3 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

So, again, I don't play the game, but how many Titans would you say are in game and/or per Corporations (I think that's what they're called, right?)

actually, the numbers of supers and Titans are kept under secret in the alliances so it's hard to give you an accurate number.

if there is roughly around 20,000-50,000 players playing each day - I would say there is around 1,000-2,000 Titans logged in throughout the day.

The corporation I am part of consists of 75 characters, we are neither a large corporation or extremely rich, and we have only 2 players who current own Titans. We have over 8 players who Own Super-Carriers (one smaller than titan), and 40 players who own a Carrier or a Dreadnought (the smallest of Capitals). there are more variations, but we'll simply keep it to these ship classes. It is not uncommon for a Corporation to not have any titan pilots, and in many cases a titan pilot has to purchase a titan which currently run between 55-65 bill for just the ship without guns, without upgrades, without ammo.

the Alliance we are part of is roughly 4,200 characters in total --- if a "Call to Arms" is called for in defending an important system or structure (which is considered a "get the fuck on and defend our space, call in sick, do whatever you need to do") the alliance has around 30-50 Titans, 50-100 Super Carriers, 300-500 Carrier/Dreads to call upon. The alliance we are in is considered a "Medium size Alliance."

The coalition we are part of consists of upwards to 40,000 characters in total -- the max numbers that we had in one battle was 250 Titans, over 400 Super Carriers, roughly 800+ Carriers/Dreads.

Fleets can only have up to 250 ships in each fleet (for the purposes of organization).

If we wanted to bring these numbers to a "Naval Action Level" it would be the equivalent of a 50 man clan having 1-3 - 1st rates, 3-6 - 2nd rates 10-20 - 3rd rates, and the rest are able to man 4ths/5ths on a "max form-up" situation.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Teutonic

[admin]

The initial numbers (for testing) to make a first rate were set as follows:
3 players should be able to build a 1st rate in 3 days (collecting resources from buildings and building a ship including all labor hours)
This was enough for the testing to allow everyone experience all the content. 

Some time ago we also reduced the weight for resources to reduce number of trips for hauling. 

These numbers (3 players/3 days) indeed seem kinda low now, especially taking into account the lineships buffs in the final HP rebalance.

[Hethwill]

Somehow I had/have the impression everything is/was "accelerated" through the test EA to verify content and mechanics validity.