Battle chat / Global chat

[jodgi]

3 minutes ago, z4ys said:

When its still possible to enable chat its fake because its like an accident you cant just look away.

Sure, but would you run home to mommy (bother the devs with reports) if there was a disclaimer "This is the tavern in all it's glory and ugliness, dolts will say the most despicable things and the constabulary is not around".

[z4ys]

16 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Sure, but would you run home to mommy (bother the devs with reports) if there was a disclaimer "This is the tavern in all it's glory and ugliness, dolts will say the most despicable things and the constabulary is not around".

Tbh most use discord or any other 3rd party tool anyway. In my opinion ingame chat got derailed since offical EA and was by now long enough a source of bad behavior and whatever. I know for some extreme pvp players flaming and pvping goes hand in hand but a clean environment is in my opinion better than allowing some not moderated grey area chat. I believe global and reddit likes to call it double standard.

Edited June 15, 2020 by z4ys

[Iroquois Confederacy]

1 hour ago, admin said:

If only))
The problem is not only reading the reports (its a big problem but we indeed can get help doing it). Volunteers can help with one problem but another one remains.

even with  volunteers (we had free volunteers helping us - thank you dear volunteers we owe you next game for free) the problem does not go away. The problem is the side butterfly effects of bans, in the modern world where everyone has a right opinion. 

• Case A - If you don't ban - people who were chat abused come and spread the info on the toxic community
• Case B - If you ban - people who were banned come and spread information on the heavy handed moderation (no matter who does it - ask any volunteer mod). In addition to that unpaid volunteer mods are constantly attacked as shills and dev pets even if they are really neutral. 

In olden days our community could defend us, commenting in reviews posting corrections to the potential buyers, but steam some time ago decided to allow review posters to hide/delete comments (even from devs) or even remove all comments whatsoever, blocking community chance to respond. 

Overall we don't see a clear way out without removing the source of the problem which are: Global chat, battle chat, pm's from enemies. Wargaming could not handle battle chat even with 1000mods and unlimited budgets. They just cut it and never looked back.

It's known that I was one of the chat mods, and what admin says here is right.  Frankly, modding chat sucked.  At first it was "I've spent a thousand hours in game anyway, I have a fairly level head, I don't mind to help out."  Over time, more and more toxic players would pile on - they would try to constantly push the envelope.  When they got banned, they would cry about it on the forums, have their clan mates cry about it on Global, and continue to drive people away.  You'd see people try to figure out exactly where the line was, that way when there was any deviation from one moderator to another on when it was time to politely invite someone to no longer participate in chat for a day, they could scream "mod abuse!" over and over.

I don't know if it's inherent to PvP games, but for Naval Action, the community could not remain polite and professional.  It was either win in battle, and gloat afterwards, or lose in battle, and try to win in chat afterwards.

It became so exhausting that I simply stopped playing.  The community burns through anyone willing to deal with the toxicity they constantly spew.

My experience is that Global does far more harm than good.  These days, the best way for me to play is with tavern turned off.  I look forward to when everyone gets to experience that.  Much like exiting from Plato's Cave, the true forms of things are painful to see at first - but your eyes will adjust.

[jodgi]

45 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Tbh most use discord or any other 3rd party tool anyway. In my opinion ingame chat got derailed since offical EA abd was by now long enough a source of bad behavior and whatever. I know for some extreme pvp players flaming and pvping goes hand in hand but a clean environment is in my opinion better than allowing some not moderated grey area chat. I believe global and reddit likes to call it double standard by devs.

You're not wrong but I take a different stance than you, still.

I'm an extreme pvp'er but I've never flamed anyone, anywhere. Though, I know that some of my ilk do. I used to police global chat so I know what the ususal suspects are capable of. Even if it was "my job" to react I still loved staying in global chat. As @admin points out; You need more than a dozen of volunteers to muzzle the idiots and opportunists. We did our job when we were around (I think some are still around) but we weren't around all the time and in every nation chat when the usual suspects moved their shit away from our disapproving gaze.

Discord and other micro-communities don't matter in this regard, they have, would have and will exist whatever is available in-game.

The problem isn't the shit-spewing, the problem is that the shit-spewing is placed at the devs' feet. I understand thoroughly how they don't want to deal with it as an official entity.

You could try an official/unofficial backchannel opt-in global chat to preserve the community feeling or simply throw out all the good stuff with the bad stuff.

The beauty is that if this partly hidden global chat backfires on steam forum, reddit or wherever else these snowflakes, vindictive chat victims or true white-knights of a clean game-environment lurk, admin can simply kill it. Poof! We tried. The assholes won.

This is not my fight, for sure, but it always irks me when assholes manages to set the agenda. (This could be a perfect segue into a certain nation's politics, but I know better  )

Edited June 15, 2020 by jodgi

[jodgi]

2 minutes ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

It's known that I was one of the chat mods, and what admin says here is right.  Frankly, modding chat sucked.  At first it was "I've spent a thousand hours in game anyway, I have a fairly level head, I don't mind to help out."  Over time, more and more toxic players would pile on - they would try to constantly push the envelope.  When they got banned, they would cry about it on the forums, have their clan mates cry about it on Global, and continue to drive people away.  You'd see people try to figure out exactly where the line was, that way when there was any deviation from one moderator to another on when it was time to politely invite someone to no longer participate in chat for a day, they could scream "mod abuse!" over and over.

I don't know if it's inherent to PvP games, but for Naval Action, the community could not remain polite and professional.  It was either win in battle, and gloat afterwards, or lose in battle, and try to win in chat afterwards.

It became so exhausting that I simply stopped playing.  The community burns through anyone willing to deal with the toxicity they constantly spew.

My experience is that Global does far more harm than good.  These days, the best way for me to play is with tavern turned off.  I look forward to when everyone gets to experience that.  Much like exiting from Plato's Cave, the true forms of things are painful to see at first - but your eyes will adjust.

Aww, this makes me sad because you did more work than I did. Why would so many asshats congregate in this game?! I truly wonder...

[qw569😳]

4 hours ago, admin said:

see - you get the point
Why should i waste time on reading reports that show chat content from ass holes (and ruin my mood and positive attitude, losing faith in humanity) when instead i can bring beautiful amazing vessels that never sailed for 300 years and now can sail THANKS to our DLC patrons?

Chats are getting cut sorry guys. your witty post has only confirmed my point = majority only see chat it as a sarcastic tool to belittle the opponent , or gang up together to belittle an opponent.  No chat = no problem. 

Oh, people are so weak.

[Iroquois Confederacy]

It's a game that inherently encourages nationalism and conflict.  One can only wonder indeed.
There of course already is an opt-in global chat people can use at their leisure and nobody needs to worry about - a larger Naval Action Discord.
I am certain someone will set one up if it has not been already.

 

[Puchu]

I strongly believe that the toxicity of the global chat and the overall design of the game "emptyness full of danger" are connected. So yes, probably if you want people to be afraid or bored most of the time, then it makes sense to remoove that exhaust. 

I guess the more dlc people buy, the friendlier they become, because they dont care about their losses anymore. That might be the secret. 

Wow I got it! Make the global Chat itself a dlc feature that only gets buyable after having bought at least 3 dlc ships. Now there are only people in the global chat who dont care about the occasional loss of a free ship. 

[Farrago]

3 hours ago, jodgi said:

True.

What about an opt-in chat that no player has activated by default?

If people use an opt-in chat to rage-type, would it matter?

Yes. You’d think if I have to turn on protractor on the map each and every time it shouldn’t be too hard to make it where I have to turn on Global Chat to use it. 

[Koltes]

7 hours ago, admin said:

Overall we don't see a clear way out without removing the source of the problem which are: Global chat, battle chat, pm's from enemies. Wargaming could not handle battle chat even with 1000mods and unlimited budgets. They just cut it and never looked back.

The majority of players are good folks. These so to speak "measures", such as removal of the battle chat and PMs from enemies can and most definitely will backfire to the rest of the community.
MMO type game must have means to communicate by the definition. As a pirate I want to be able to talk to my prey and try to get them to pay ransom instead of sinking them for example.
WOT removed enemy chat because there is no reason to have it. It has no role apart from trolling the other side. In NA however it has many roles and purposes that will affect the game of the good community.
Think someone is an ass hole? Simple Ignore button works like magic. Why bother with the rest? 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Koltes

[Macjimm]

10 hours ago, admin said:

Overall we don't see a clear way out without removing the source of the problem which are: Global chat, battle chat, pm's from enemies. Wargaming could not handle battle chat even with 1000mods and unlimited budgets. They just cut it and never looked back.

Global is not always worse that other channels.

I don't think your method will bring success unless you remove All chat.  The content that I see on "Nation" and "Help" is just as bad or worse that "Global".  I report every instance of discrimination that I see.  If I politely ask players not to be rude on "Nation" or "Help", I am immediately met with insults.  The ignore button works, but nothing else does.

Sounds like you are dealing with trolls.  They have an agenda and are motivated by conflict.  They are seeking a fight before they log on.  You will not defeat them if you expect that they will not use "Nation" , "Help" and "PMs" to hassle people.   They won't go away if you leave them anywhere to play.  If they use enough alts they can access all nations.

I respectfully suggest that you invest more messaging into encouraging players to use Ignore.  And fix Battle Chat so that ignore works.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Macjimm
speling

[Sea Archer]

Imo chatting with enemy players is an essential part of this game. There are always a few toxic players, but punishing all players for that cannot be the right way.

[admin]

4 hours ago, Koltes said:

MMO type game must have means to communicate by the definition. A
WOT removed enemy chat because there is no reason to have it

Wow does not allow communication with enemies. We understand what you are saying but we have no resources as wow.

The bad apple analogy does not cut it as it reflects on the whole experience. People dont see bans publicly and think its ok. But if we ban publicly we are pressed for heavy hands

[Hethwill]

Admin, whatever you want to do just do it.

Both arguments have positives and negatives.

In truth, and by reading many of the comments directed towards each other I will say that the best nature people are really exceptional and some are very high standards. The bad are really over the top and, excuse me saying this, they must have been exposed to such unhealthy influences during their life as to project such imagery unto others that no law abiding and mentally healthy persons could even understand how they can come up with such vile comments.

Whatever you want to do, just do it.

We going in circles.

Opening post - having a empty instance to test the ship, seems okay. I usually use an AI to do it though.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Hethwill

[Louis Garneray]

18 hours ago, admin said:

Overall we don't see a clear way out without removing the source of the problem which are: Global chat, battle chat, pm's from enemies. Wargaming could not handle battle chat even with 1000mods and unlimited budgets. They just cut it and never looked back.

Global chat can be a pain some times, so removing it wouldn't be that horrible except for the few occasions where people have fun and spread their good mood...

But it would be sad to remove battle chat even with the occasional pain in the butt we encounter some times. I have a few opponents I like to talk to. When I get one who is salty I try to ignore him.

And sometimes I entertain them with answer. Like the other night with Rolly (Brit from SLRN) who was tagging a Redoutable with a requin in the PZ and spent almost the all battle  avoiding fight, then leave battle and re-tag my friend (then I joined).

[HachiRoku]

On 6/12/2020 at 1:41 PM, Tac said:

The loss of pixels for some people i guess is just to much to handle

I'm sorry but these statements are just stupid. If I loose 100€ I am mad because I went to work and had to earn that money. What's different about working for a ship? If pixels are so worthless why are people paying 30 euros for a dlc ship? Because they look nice? So does a picture. 

[Tac]

29 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I'm sorry but these statements are just stupid. If I loose 100€ I am mad because I went to work and had to earn that money. What's different about working for a ship? If pixels are so worthless why are people paying 30 euros for a dlc ship? Because they look nice? So does a picture. 

My point was that if i lose £100 i don't rage at everyone else like it's their fault.Even if i got ultra ganked in a golden ship iv'e never raged in chat and ive always steered my clan away from behaving like a petulant child in chat too.Simply because i know it really doesn't matter,or in the big scheme of things it shouldn't.

Why people spend money on DlCs is quite a nuanced thing with multiple reasons and one of them will indeed be "because they look nice" everyone values items differently.

[Never]

8 minutes ago, Tac said:

My point was that if i lose £100 i don't rage at everyone else like it's their fault.Even if i got ultra ganked in a golden ship iv'e never raged in chat and ive always steered my clan away from behaving like a petulant child in chat too.Simply because i know it really doesn't matter,or in the big scheme of things it shouldn't.

Why people spend money on DlCs is quite a nuanced thing with multiple reasons and one of them will indeed be "because they look nice" everyone values items differently.

It's not even about the value of a ship imho.

You see people lose their minds and spew out pure vile into battle chat from losing even the crappiest DLC. It's just about losing, not even about ganks. They could be doing the ganking themselves and lose and still rage instead of accepting their opponent was better. Maybe it's pride or something, some just can't accept a fair loss. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Never

[Nixolai]

11 minutes ago, Tac said:

My point was that if i lose £100 i don't rage at everyone else like it's their fault.Even if i got ultra ganked in a golden ship iv'e never raged in chat and ive always steered my clan away from behaving like a petulant child in chat too.Simply because i know it really doesn't matter,or in the big scheme of things it shouldn't.

yes, common quotes from Christoph "its just pixels" and "it doesn't matter"

Edited June 16, 2020 by Nixolai

[Hethwill]

1 hour ago, Never said:

some just can't accept a fair loss

Some more can't even be good winners.

They must insult on top.

[Never]

20 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Some more can't even be good winners.

They must insult on top.

True as well, I think Admin's choice will be a positive change. People that want to talk to each other do so through other means anyway. 

I hope we get some nice memeable battle phrases I can spread through Reddit 😛

[Serk]

I'm worried about the removal of the global channel.

When I log in around 8 or 9 PM US EST, both my clan and nation (and thus friend list) are inactive. Beside from the occasional ''hello? anyone online?'', national channel can go mute for an hour, if not more.

With 300 people or less online, global channel is often the only sign of life on the server. Removing it will increase the feeling of emptiness and isolation in a MMO game.

Ignore list should be enough to deal with unpleasant posters.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Serk

[Koltes]

23 hours ago, admin said:

Wow does not allow communication with enemies. We understand what you are saying but we have no resources as wow.

The bad apple analogy does not cut it as it reflects on the whole experience. People dont see bans publicly and think its ok. But if we ban publicly we are pressed for heavy hands

Hence why I recommend to give this to the hands of players. Take the ban work and blame off your hands.
Allow leaders/diplos of clans to manage who their clan may chat with in Global/Battle chat by setting standings for other clans. You already have clan lists in your friends list. Its just another parameter just like the friends list. Sorted. This will be the leaders choice and targeted at specific clans only.
On PM level let payers themselves to ignore those who abuse. 

[Vonatar]

If clan officers / council members can decide about bans and whos allowed to speak in chat, i join the NPCs fleet.

[Puchu]

So the game makes you work or pay for ships. 

And it makes it very easy for you to loose said ships that you worked hard for.

And then wonders why people are unhappy with losses. 

 

I am sure less people cry about loosing "free" dlc ships, than they cry about crafted golden ships. 

 

How toxic are loki players in global chat. Do they complain, flame, insult in global if they got sunk? I haven't seen that jet.

 

That leads us to the conclusion that the more people loose, the more they rant. 

 

You can change the behavior of humans by changing their environment. The most well thought person can become toxic if put in an unjust situation. And the most toxic person can be the nicest guy when put in he right environment. Banning chat is like putting makeup over skin cancer so people dont see it.