It is Time to remove Ship Tow and here is why'

[Broadsides]

,Before everyone jumps on this issue I believe the ship tow is detrimental to this game mechanics, naval strategy, and helps the bigger nations keep their dominance.  First we have already seen the tow feature removed from sea to port except to fix groundings.... since players learned to avoid ships by being towed from sea.

Let me explain why I believe this.  Especially as a naval gaming grognard.  Large powerful nations can now move fleets from one area to another almost at will, limited of course to the one per player per day, not counting alts, ship sales and trades.  In reality if a large nation needs to respond to threats even from smaller nations at the opposite side of the map they can manage to move their fleets with impunity to that port battle bypassing choke points and obvious sea lanes of travel, and  scouting frigates.

If we do away with the tow, ships individually or  fleets could be intercepted and restricted by choke points engaged prior to reaching a destination..  Think about this. Trafalgar was not a "port battle" but a fleet intercepted.

A big nation owning various ports would need to think about where to station response fleets. To meet the threats to their naval empire.  While a major fleet is in one area another  hostile nation, even a weak one, could be targeting a far flung outpost using the fact that these are sailing days and ships aren't beamed up in warp speed.  Frigates would gain another advantages roll.  One suited to their historical task, clearing a path far ahead protecting the main fleet or that of scouts searching for the enemy knowing that a fleet or individual ships must arrive via sea lanes or through choke points.

Getting rid of the TOW from port to port would benefits smaller less powerful nations while making the bigger nation think strategically.  I believe this would also lead to more PVP. 

Now everything depends on hostility missions followed up by an ensuing Port Battle.  If a fleet needs to sail to conflict they may have to encounter enemies by  alliance. temporary truces, choke points , sea lanes etc. which all could dramatical influence the outcome.

I believe that most historical evidence did not change the owner of the port(though at times it did happen).  A fleet may be destroyed in port but the port often stayed in control of the initial owner....since ships could not venture on land to engage armies directly.

Think about intercepting fleets or portions thereof before your nations is actually attacked. The game has developed way past the need to have ships take wings.. I believe having them sail makes this a better Naval Action.

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Broadsides
fixing auto correct and punctuation

[Botq]

How about no

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

I like the proposal very much . It might lead to more immersive content. Port battles will be fought with the ships you got at hand. Less optimized but not as mono as it is now. We should give it a try! Gene

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

4 hours ago, o7Captain said:

How about no

Broadsides laid out a well thought proposal and you give a zero argument, dumb response. Better to keep silent then.

[Sir Loorkon]

This would increase the time sink. No thank you. How about reducing the BR limit of PB and the stacking of those „over the top“ bonusses?

Edited May 21, 2019 by Sir Loorkon

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

Open world concept and front line mechanics will never work properly with the possibility to warp. We had this discussion before. It's not about less action or time sink guys. It is about strategy and realism. Thumps up!

[HamBlower]

This suggestion would be the end of RVR.

Go play on PVE Server!

 

[Raekur]

With the ability to tow ships comes the ability to respond to an enemy presence. Take away the ability to respond to reported enemy activity you will have less people willing to leave port. It is simple math. Enemy is sighted at a port that is 100k away. With the tow option players can respond and leave port to drive the intruder away. If they have to sail for 20 min to get to the area the enemy will be long gone or in battle with someone and little chance for the swords to still be visible. So, take away tow and you remove a chance for some pvp. 

So the question is, do you want it removed because you think it is hurting the game or is it because of the exact situation i mentioned above and you were the "intruder" who suddenly found several ships in pursuit to drive you out of an area? 

Also take into account that there are several players who do not have massive amounts of time to sail from port to port so their play is limited to fast response not long sail to look for someone who has already sailed out of the area.

Suggestions are good but there are many factors that need to be weighed against to determine the overall effect they will have on the different types of players here. Removing fast response aids the pvp/raider and no one else. Port battle groups know well in advance what is going on, Nation defenders responding to hostility may already have ships in the area but not a guarantee so a quick redeployment is usually needed. For traders the tow option is not of significant importance unless they find a very good amount of goods to move, but even then the smart ones will figure out a way to sail the needed ships to the area and carry some goods while they are at it to make some money for the trip.

[Forbin]

At one point you have to avoid being historical and copying reality. We are not real captains, sailing for weeks in our real time job....No, we are 2019 players in front our PC trying to have fun during our free time.

Whatever you argue, this game is a huge time sink and if you put more historical time sink in it, you'll get historical result...PEACE..

So, a big NO to this proposal.

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

23 minutes ago, HamBlower said:

This suggestion would be the end of RVR.

Go play on PVE Server!

 

Who are you to tell people where to play? And why end of RVR? Your arguments please! In addition to the initial topic I'd like to throw in the dynamic BR system again that reflects the "real quality" of a ship.

[Liq]

Should have made it a poll

My vote is no for reasons stated above by others

Edited May 21, 2019 by Liq

[Potemkin]

This is a game, there needs to be a balance between realism and playability. I get your angle but not everyone wants to add (lots) more hours of sailing at the expense of time that could be used doing something.....fun.

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

8 minutes ago, Raekur said:

With the ability to tow ships comes the ability to respond to an enemy presence. Take away the ability to respond to reported enemy activity you will have less people willing to leave port. It is simple math. Enemy is sighted at a port that is 100k away. With the tow option players can respond and leave port to drive the intruder away. If they have to sail for 20 min to get to the area the enemy will be long gone or in battle with someone and little chance for the swords to still be visible. So, take away tow and you remove a chance for some pvp. 

So the question is, do you want it removed because you think it is hurting the game or is it because of the exact situation i mentioned above and you were the "intruder" who suddenly found several ships in pursuit to drive you out of an area? 

Also take into account that there are several players who do not have massive amounts of time to sail from port to port so their play is limited to fast response not long sail to look for someone who has already sailed out of the area.

Suggestions are good but there are many factors that need to be weighed against to determine the overall effect they will have on the different types of players here. Removing fast response aids the pvp/raider and no one else. Port battle groups know well in advance what is going on, Nation defenders responding to hostility may already have ships in the area but not a guarantee so a quick redeployment is usually needed. For traders the tow option is not of significant importance unless they find a very good amount of goods to move, but even then the smart ones will figure out a way to sail the needed ships to the area and carry some goods while they are at it to make some money for the trip.

1st, no need to mention a personal players motive. It's about the game. 2nd, the tow allows you to react in the described way once per day. In your logic we'd need unlimited tows and will finish in an arena game. 3rd, if a nation owns a port, I guess players have ships there to respond. Not always the best vessels, for sure. But that's life.

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

33 minutes ago, Potemkin said:

This is a game, there needs to be a balance between realism and playability. I get your angle but not everyone wants to add (lots) more hours of sailing at the expense of time that could be used doing something.....fun.

Absolutely agreed! Fun is different for everybody. The most fun in NA I had and still have when mixing in fights with whatever is at hand. It might be a Cerberus from shop or even godforbid a Navy Brig :). For sure, I prefer my own crafted vessels! What concerns me is the fact that RVR is too homogeneous. The port battle ship of the day is the Ocean, the hunter of the day is a fast Wasa.... With no tow availability my hope would be to see more ship types in battles. The game offers much more than we see nowadays! Maybe some people chose to craft and establish ship markets in remote places. High risk, high reward etc. It could all be even much more dynamic and rewarding and not, like the pessimists among us say, the end of days.

[Potemkin]

27 minutes ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

Absolutely agreed! Fun is different for everybody. The most fun in NA I had and still have when mixing in fights with whatever is at hand. It might be a Cerberus from shop or even godforbid a Navy Brig :). For sure, I prefer my own crafted vessels! What concerns me is the fact that RVR is too homogeneous. The port battle ship of the day is the Ocean, the hunter of the day is a fast Wasa.... With no tow availability my hope would be to see more ship types in battles. The game offers much more than we see nowadays! Maybe some people chose to craft and establish ship markets in remote places. High risk, high reward etc. It could all be even much more dynamic and rewarding and not, like the pessimists among us say, the end of days.

If there was a way to break the l'ocean meta and replace it with an assortment of smaller/different ships id be overjoyed. Unfortunately the guys who still do rvr do so to win at almost any cost- thats not a criticism by any means. Rvr has moved from meta to meta since ive been around and theres always a "best ship" that becomes the new meta. Removing tow wont affect this because the guys that do rvr will just end up sailing meta ships to where they need em in the hopes that the other side doesn't. They'll do this until they get burnt out and take a break from the game or quit. We should be focusing on ways to prevent that "burn out" that many of us have no doubt experienced before. The only time i question why i bother to log into naval action is when im sailing long distance tabbed out watching youtube. If long distance sailing is fun for you, more power to ya.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Potemkin

[Thonys]

If we had more room for more Outposts in the game we did not need to TOW a vessel (Most ports are or strategic, or market-based outposts)

for me personally in my nation i am cut off from the entire north because of that.(so even a tow is not even an option anymore)

 

but actually, i agree with the OP.

but,

but it is a game, and we can not do what is the reality. (just sailing)

the game has restrictions on almost everything, and the tow is a small compromise for that.

the tow is also the arcade thing in the game and not historical in any sense. (not a real fan of that )

 

personally, if we had more outposts we could get rid of the tow ...and there would be more balance between making decisions in a more strategic way.

[Bragan Benigaris]

Well, even as a passionate long voyage sailor i appreciate the tow, because sometimes i want to change my area of operation without sailing with a fleet of AI over the whole map.

But maybe a modification of the tow would be a reasonable compromise: Deliver the towed ship not instantly but next day (after Maintenance). Would be less arcadey maybe...

[James Thomson]

I would restrict towing of 1-3th rates of ships. 

[Broadsides]

Well it looks like I'm getting some reactions.  I don't want a fight and some good points have been brought up in the negative.  I respect everyone's opinion and your input is vital even if its negative so please continue to make your points  All of you.  I will address most of them and I would like to find an equitable outcome.  So please have an open mind.  Too often I see these post become ARGUMENTATIVE ending in a duel... vs logical thought out arguments.  

For me I will try to address each point as I have time...

11 hours ago, Wraith said:

Sure, let's put more things in place to reduce the Action in Naval Action.  We already have too large a game world for server populations which are unsustainable.  Why would you want to limit where people can make that content happen?

I do not see how my suggestion would limit action or content. If my understanding of your meaning of content is correct. Quite the opposite.  It would require more ships  of the combat variety out at sea.  Not popping safely from one port to another.  It would put combatant ships vulnerable just like traders who cannot magically be transported with their cargo.  Think about it, a poor vulnerable trader to do any good needs to take its cargo out into the open.  Yet a La Ocean magically flies via C-17 aircraft safely to the next port on the other side of the map.  If a trader needs to go back and forth why not the Victory.

The argument that ships would remain in port to remain safe is counter intuitive.  To conquer. patrol, scout, intercept requires ships at sea.  What this game is about.

My experience that nail biting ACTION occurs when you know an enemy is about to enter from a distance like a port battle but unsure of its location.  You have searches going on , and screeners deployed, all looking to intercept.  Of course there are counter screeners until one or more battles are joined.  In no way do I see a restriction on RvR.

This would change how, when and where you decide to attack. Time and logistics become issues that need to be dealt with.  So an empire somehow would need to respond to its far flung posts while weary of encroachment by other  nations biting at its heal on its outer perimeter somewhere it is not.

I do not see any lose of combat opportunities with this proposal I actually see more...but I must agree with the real world issue of TIME SINK as addressed above since most of use cannot sit in front a computer all day long..  So is there some kind of solution to this issue?  How can this be alleviated, modified regardless.

What has happened is that we have become accustomed to the MAGIC wand of ship travel.

I do have some ideas on mitigating the TIME SINK issue and will address that in a bit but if you have ideas. I would like to hear them.

 

•  

[Raekur]

Just had a thought, if the idea to remove the ability to tow is to get people out into OW more, then shouldn't the ability to hop from outpost to outpost also be removed for the same reason?

If the end goal is to get ships moving across the water then being able to avoid combat simply by switching to a different port would follow the same lines of thought.

[Ruuster_IV]

5 hours ago, Bragan Benigaris said:

Well, even as a passionate long voyage sailor i appreciate the tow, because sometimes i want to change my area of operation without sailing with a fleet of AI over the whole map.

But maybe a modification of the tow would be a reasonable compromise: Deliver the towed ship not instantly but next day (after Maintenance). Would be less arcadey maybe...

 

I agree, I think all tows should be removed but if not this is a good compromise. And this is coming from someone who has a VERY low play time. 

[Angus MacDuff]

Its a good suggestion, but i'm afraid it would only work for a small map.  The tow is a convenience that makes a large map playable.  Without it, I fear that instead of doing the long sails to respond or do RVR, players would isolate themselves (human nature/laziness).  Many players advocate for more tows...not less.  In RL, you are correct...ships can't fly across the Caribbean.  But also in real life, nations have fleets positioned at their important ports...something that is not realistic for the game.

[Teutonic]

No.

and here's why.

Anything that benefits a small group will benefit a larger group more.

Anything that doesn't benefit a large group will hurt a smaller group more.

Taking Tows away won't make large groups have to think more, it will just make small groups lose more. 

[Vernon Merrill]

8 hours ago, HamBlower said:

This suggestion would be the end of RVR.

Go play on PVE Server!

 

Or YOU could go play Legends....?

[Dragonfire]

We use to have just that only way to get any ship anywhere was to sail it. 

Go take a Santi and sail it from port Gibralter to the flats area hell even Gustavia to there like we use to have to do to attend a port battle and then sail it back and if you make it without being sunk on the way let us know what an absolutely painful time wasting never want to do that again experience that was.

At an average of 4kn there and back in a Santi (looking at time notes I made back in the day) you would stop playing the game if that was what we had to go back to doing all the time.

Because also back then you couldn't enter the port at all till you owned it so either log off for rest of the day till server reset or start sailing for home see ya in 4 hours.