Patch 29. Sextant, shallow water changes, improvements in the User interface.

[Licinio Chiavari]

1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

Exactly my point. 3 good players ALWAYS smash 6th noobs. THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW IT'S UNBALANCED.  In REAL LIFE a 3v1 is more often than not a death sentence. If this number is does not reflect the game, then it's not real life that's the problem. You see what I mean?

I'm not disregarding skill, I'm saying skill was already enough. You confuse skill with just knowing what to do, what woods and mods to put on. That's not skill. Skill is how you sail a ship and if things were decided on skill alone (before gold ships and mods) it's Sea Trials, where all ships were the same woods, same mods,  same number of repairs for EVERYONE, completely equal footing nothing but you 

Remember when battles were only 3 repairs and you never saw a fleet battle where one side didn't have loses? That's because fights were closer when all there was was sailing and not gearing. That's what the game should go back to, because an action game has to be balanced or the action isn't fun.

Good points. I repeat by some time that 80% of what is called skill in NA, in the end, is experience.

The problem indeed is not 3 veterans killing 6 newbies.

The problem is 4 rich veterans killing 10-12+ medium players (not totally crappy ones) due to a mix of skill, experience and gear gap. Gear gap that widens the experience one, both because a veteran knows HOW to fit a ship, and because he can make these shiny mods shine really.

Shiny mods that are ludicrously expensive... so are for the majority of time in the hands... of the same veterans who values them AND are rich enough (also thanks to real P2W of the game: ALTS; or we want really speak about hoarding poods? because I remember the effect of poods+32carro of my Endy on a Trinco maho/sab: less than 3 full broadsides - meaning a couple minutes - and he had no side) to afford them and (not forget) afford to lose them too.

 

I repeatly proposed to make mods in different tiers with different accessbility.
Top - super rare and super expensive:                                  Improved Sextant (speed +4%)
Superior - quite expensive but affordable and available:  Copper Plating (speed +3%)
Good - easily accessble for a price:                                      NHR (speed +2.5%) - 400 doubs.
Cheap - obvious:                                                                       Gazelle (speed +2% - my update) - 200 doubs or even less.

AND NOT ANYMORE STACKABLE, not falling on 4 different categories! And the same for all groups of mods.

Devs added mods groups... and we can still stack an hefty amount of bonuses... like the first 3 speed mods for a bulky +9.5%: so my t/wo is FASTER (3.5+9.5=+13%) than noobish failfit fir/fir (+10%) ship.
How is he espected to fight me, even 2v1? making me laughing?.

This way best speed difference between a cheap fitting and top notch would be only 2%, and from a still easy to get one even less.
So yes, still, the rich veteran can use super mods... but spending 100s many folds more to get only 2%.

The same tiered gear for all mods. Then make Crooked hull giving even 4% speed... BECAUSE IT HAS A MALUS (so few reasonable PvPer would ever use it) while Naval Clock has also a secondary bonus! Make Cotton Sails even 3%... because Copper has not malus and even a tiny extra bonus. And so on. New drop mods could stay balanced that way as very particular (make Light Planking FASTER than Crooked with a bigger malus to HP - as it is; Wood Sheathing (+1% speed and +2% HP) is a good example of particular mod).

And damn reduce/rework wood differences AND MAKE OTHER WOODS VIABLE. We know pretty well that the only reason to not make ALL SHIP T/T or T/WO (and LO/WO for PBs) IS ONLY THE POSSIBILITY. There's not a damned reason to use Cag, Sab, Oak, Maho, WO (and crew space now; but it was a non-sense by itself). So no reason for 5 frames out 7 and 4 plankings out of 6 (= two thirds of woods are crap, I'd underline).

Not to speak about that this cluster of woods and mods that are CRAP is ONLY A TRAP FOR NEW PLAYERS... giving the veterans further advantage.

 

These changes and limiting repairs in combat would solve these impossible feats.

And I would like to underline.
The problem of these feats (4v12+) is that they are not good for the game. Because it's utterly humiliating for the losing side. And some more humiliation later... people quits: because they play to enjoy.

Anyone can accept being smashed by a gank team. Anyone can accept to lose to a better player. Anyone can accept to be badly beaten even if 2v1. Not so many would accept to be humiliated a dozen time even if outnumbering 4 to 1 the winning side. This kills the "morale" of the players.

Skill alone should mean winning 2v3.
Skill+gear(reduced) should mean winning 1v2.
Gear(reduced) should mean surviving 1v2.
Skill+gear should mean killing some 1v3 BUT IN THE END DIE.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Licinio Chiavari

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Licinio Chiavari said:

Good points. I repeat by some time that 80% of what is called skill in NA, in the end, is experience.

The problem indeed is not 3 veterans killing 6 newbies.

The problem is 4 rich veterans killing 10-12+ medium players (not totally crappy ones) due to a mix of skill, experience and gear gap. Gear gap that widens the experience one, both because a veteran knows HOW to fit a ship, and because he can make these shiny mods shine really.

Exactly this, you've got it on the nose. The rest of your post is golden I just wanted to express quicksatisfaction with your understanding. Your idea is developer-worthy

Edited December 31, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[William Death]

4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Exactly my point. 3 good players ALWAYS smash 6th noobs. THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW IT'S UNBALANCED.  In REAL LIFE a 3v1 is more often than not a death sentence. If this number is does not reflect the game, then it's not real life that's the problem. You see what I mean?

Yeah, I get that. But the point is this: 6 noobs will lose, regardless of gear and ships being equal. Focused fire, angling, protecting the weak side, holding the weather gauge, managing when you repair (even if you only have 1 repair to use, there is still a technique to when you should pop it, doing it right is the difference between losing all side HP or only half, or losing a mast & getting half back vs denying the demast altogether).... all this is foreign to "noobs." So that argument doesn't hold. Now if you had argued that 3 good players should lose (at least one player) vs 6 "average" or "decent" players....that would have been a more logical argument.

But notice I'm not disagreeing with you, there IS an issue with balance in NA combat...I'm just trying to point out that it stems from a variety of sources, not just mods or wood types or repairs. A lot is experience and skill related

I consider myself to be pretty quick on the uptake of things in NA, but it took me hundreds of hours of playing, both with good players and with noobs against good players, just to even begin to understand combat in NA. There are so many layers to it (or there were, before unlimited repairs and super-OP mods weakened the quality of battles). I didn't know anything about the endpoints of mast hitboxes for sections until a duelist told me. I didn't know that repairing just before the mast fell was the best use of your one repair. I didn't know that firing ball into a ship thats on fire will spread the fire faster. I didn't know that timing your hull repair could make more efficient use of it. I didn't know just how useless HP was in comparison to thickness. I didn't understand the importance of better turn rate till I fought someone who did. Stuff I'd heard called hacks, I came to learn, was just skilled players figuring out nuances of combat that a lot of average players will never know of. This is the experience gap @Licinio Chiavari refers too.
And it makes up a large part of the skill difference. And there's no way around it. I can sit in TS and speak at great length about the necessity to carefully position your ship and time your turns so that you bounce 80% of the enemy's broadside but can get the angle on him and fire quickly enough to roll every gun into his ship....but a noob won't understand this. I could maybe link a video but that won't help much either. Nothing but hands-on experience will suffice.

 

4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

You confuse skill with just knowing what to do, what woods and mods to put on. That's not skill. Skill is how you sail a ship and if things were decided on skill alone (before gold ships and mods) it's Sea Trials, where all ships were the same woods, same mods,  same number of repairs for EVERYONE, completely equal footing nothing but you 

Ehhh...I think knowing how to set your ship up IS skill. Its at least a part of it. A golfer can have the best swing in the world but if he chooses a putter when he should be using a driver....he will have difficulties. But surely a skilled golfer will know which club to select. (I don't golf, but I understand there is a reason for the different types of golfclubs).
Similarly in NA, you don't get to be a good player without learning that you should choose Teak/WO instead of Sab/Oak. Or that you shouldn't stack copper plating with floating battery.

I won't argue that the greatest test of skill is when all things are equal except the skipper behind the wheel. This much is true. But people don't seem to enjoy games as much when everything is cookie cutter. So we have customizable wood types and upgrades.

My favorite version of NA was early-to-mid 2016 when we had only 4 wood types--all useful ones--and one to three mods of each type (speed, gunnery, boarding, reload, etc.)--all with small bonuses. The maximum difference between the slowest and fastest build was ~8% give or take a bit. Similar for HP, reload, boarding, etc. The ONLY issue I had with that system was RNG for a few of the best mods (like marines and carpentry teams).

Re-implement that system but where everything is craftable and I'd be much happier with the balance of mods. Right now we have too many mods--too many useless ones, especially--and too great a gap between quality of gear.

4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Remember when battles were only 3 repairs and you never saw a fleet battle where one side didn't have loses? That's because fights were closer when all there was was sailing and not gearing. That's what the game should go back to, because an action game has to be balanced or the action isn't fun.

Its nitpicking...but there have ALWAYS been exceptions to that "rule." I was in one of the top RvR clans, and we prided ourselves on our ability to create perfect screenshots, where everyone (or all but one or two) on our side is alive while most of the enemy team is sunk. This is 2016 and 2017 NA. One hull rep. One sail rep. Everyone had a gold ship. Only a few mods of each type, most craftable. Exception to this is the last one, which was just after the wipe and name change from PvP2 to PvP Global....current combat system, but most everyone was using their dev-provided lo/wo Indefs and Cedar/Cedar Surprises so thats about as close to even gear as you can get.

EDIT: apparently you can't edit spoilers? One didn't format the way I wanted it to so there is some text within the spoiler below which was supposed to be outside that spoiler...and then there is also another spoiler with more screenshots that is supposed to be at the end of the post.

 

 

I posted those not as a brag or anything (the ship they call bragging rights for these battles sank ages ago), but to point out that even when things are equal, that doesn't mean one side is bound to lose ships, even if they win. They're more likely to lose a few, yes. But making everything all the same doesn't mean that NA will become a magical place where even if your team loses badly you get the comfort of knowing you took a few with you. Battles will still be decided by who makes the right choices and who screws up. How well those choices are made will determine what the screenshot looks like at the end of the battle. If skill was similar, then both sides will have losses. If one side absolutely smashed the other and the ships were cookie cutter then you know there was a skill gap.

 

So, I agree with you, repairs need to be limited to 1/1 as they used to be, difference in bonuses between wood types should be smaller, we should have fewer and less-potent mods, and we should have better availability for those mods.

But I won't for a minute try to convince myself that that will make a fleet of noobs anywhere close to a match to a fleet of decent players...because I've been on both sides of the above screenshots, and I know better. What it will do, is reduce the occurrence of these silly fights (which are fun for the winners but ultimately not good for the game):

 

 

We'd have had more of an issue if that Victory hadn't run away ^

(lightly built ships on our side, first rate on the enemy side)^

Edited December 31, 2018 by William Death
mis-formatted the spoilers

[Sir Loorkon]

6 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Exactly this, you've got it on the nose. The rest of your post is golden I just wanted to express quicksatisfaction with your understanding. Your idea is developer-worthy

If you would have read @Licinio Chiavari s excellent post you would have recognized that he is postulating exactly the oposite of what you have postulated. Fitting a ship with the right gear is a skill. The fitting skill makes gear shine. I told you before but...

[Palatinose]

@Slim McSauce there will never be two "beta" chimps attacking an Alpha. It's called Alpha for a reason. Only one rules. Only one competes the end boss. 

Besides the biological issues: I will just throw in a number. Imo it takes at least 200-300 PvP battles to unterstand this game for an average player. Yes, skill is experience in this game. That's why you don't see big differences between the Top 5 or 10%. It's a good or a bad day. But be sure that Ram or Reverse or what ever the names, have done this thousands of times. They know every ship in every setup, the wind, etc. And especially very good players will have more than one scenario to kill. Timing of multiple aspects is a key factor in this game and therefore experience will win.

Mods should be non-stackable, but it's delusional to say people who play a lot should have the same gear as those who don't. Gear is only a partly a factor and yes, some of this needs tweaking. Denying that winning by skill (experience) is fine, takes the key reason to play this game from every competetive player. 

Mods like northern carpenters, french rig and bow figures are accessable by everybody and all you need for a decent pvp ship. The rest is skill and that's really okay.

 

[John Cavanaugh]

10 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Not to speak about that this cluster of woods and mods that are CRAP is ONLY A TRAP FOR NEW PLAYERS... giving the veterans further advantage

I agree with every point you’ve made but this one. Woods are a finicky thing, and certain ships do well with different woods. Anecdotal evidence following, I’ve been playing with Indiamen recently. Testing a Teak/Teak in the zone, and a fir/mahog with floatingbattery outside tortue. In the former I wound up dueling if I recall Palatinose or pellew ina BP, I lack a screenshot but perhaps they can attest. It handled horribly and was an easy kill. In the latter I dueled Rediii, and it was a very near loss, him dismasted, boarded once but repelled, and opened fully on one side. I will attach a screen when off work. 

[Licinio Chiavari]

2 hours ago, John Cavanaugh said:

I agree with every point you’ve made but this one. Woods are a finicky thing, and certain ships do well with different woods. Anecdotal evidence following, I’ve been playing with Indiamen recently. Testing a Teak/Teak in the zone, and a fir/mahog with floatingbattery outside tortue. In the former I wound up dueling if I recall Palatinose or pellew ina BP, I lack a screenshot but perhaps they can attest. It handled horribly and was an easy kill. In the latter I dueled Rediii, and it was a very near loss, him dismasted, boarded once but repelled, and opened fully on one side. I will attach a screen when off work. 

I used more often than others other woods, like fir/maho for fast boarders and maho/maho for others (like last days on an expandable - still afloat - Renomee) down to fir/fir taggers.
We all fought on "subpar" ships, just to test or fun or for very specific purposes or just picking the first shop ship down to fir/fir "failfit.
I dont say they are not usable at all: still they are inferior to "mainstream" woods.

The difference is that a veteran would still get out something out a crappy ship not last knowing her weaknesses.
A casual could think "why not" (not last having not a clue about thickness effect AND how it goes down with damaged armor) ending on an inferior ship, so widening (again) the gap with veterans using better built and fitted ships.

Not to underline (again) that speed difference from heaviest built (LO/WO) to lightest (fir/fir) is a HUGE 19.5%: an abyss that's a technical non-sense.
But also HP difference from highest (the sometimes used but overrated WO/WO) to lightest is an even bigger 28% (imagine starting a battle with both sides at 72% in place of 100%) coupled with 20% of thickness (1 cm per 5 - and in combat effect is even bigger).

[admin]

Hotfix was deployed today 11th January

• Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)
• Chests now appear more often in Hunt and Search and Destroy missions
• Victory marks cannot now be purchased for doubloons on the War Server (they still can be purchased in the admiralty on the Peace server in the PVE Exchange tab)

 

 

[AeRoTR]

933% !!!!!!!!!!, thx for removing the exploit, I hope 260% is okay

[Thonys]

9 minutes ago, admin said:

Hotfix was deployed today 11th January

• Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)
• Chests now appear more often in Hunt and Search and Destroy missions
• Victory marks cannot now be purchased for doubloons on the War Server (they still can be purchased in the admiralty on the Peace server in the PVE Exchange tab)

 

 

5

excellent intervention.

i hope it is enough.

[Njord]

36 minutes ago, admin said:

Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)

Does this also mean the musket mods are more common now? I'd hate to get a musket mod from gold chest post nerf... 

[Custard]

41 minutes ago, admin said:

Hotfix was deployed today 11th January

• Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)
• Chests now appear more often in Hunt and Search and Destroy missions
• Victory marks cannot now be purchased for doubloons on the War Server (they still can be purchased in the admiralty on the Peace server in the PVE Exchange tab)

 

 

1.Thank you

2.Thank you

3.and damn

[staun]

• Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)

 Think a lot of ppl will be glad to see this. The next weeks will show if the nerf hit the spot, ore we still will need some adjustment. But nice that has been done something about it.

• Chests now appear more often in Hunt and Search and Destroy missions

Not sure it will make much different, but I have no need to complaint about getting extra bonus. But have a hard time to see it motivates players to do those missions. Don't think it will bring the 2 hour man back in the game. Yes I do belive the 2 hour man is important to the game.

• Victory marks cannot now be purchased for doubloons on the War Server (they still can be purchased in the admiralty on the Peace server in the PVE Exchange tab)

Well guess it is a small way to make port ownership a bit more important. But to me it gets close to the days where only top nations got VM. We all saw how that enden. It just will make the gab even bigger and my fear that even less will do RvR. It might also have a negative effect on OW since it have the potential to change the balance to a larger group sailing in SOL and the rest in 5 rate. But think it is fine in line of the way we want the game to develop. Ships once more got a bit more expensive, if not a lot more.

But to see the efffect on the change, do think we need to start by wiping all current VM. I have like 40. Lets all have like maybe 5 and remove the rest.

Edited January 11, 2019 by staun

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, staun said:

• Victory marks cannot now be purchased for doubloons on the War Server (they still can be purchased in the admiralty on the Peace server in the PVE Exchange tab)

Well guess it is a small way to make port ownership a bit more important. But to me it gets close to the days where only top nations got VM. We all saw how that enden. It just will make the gab even bigger and my fear that even less will do RvR. It might also have a negative effect on OW since it have the potential to change the balance to a larger group sailing in SOL and the rest in 5 rate. But think it is fine in line of the way we want the game to develop. Ships once more got a bit more expensive if not a lot more.

the devs want it to be as close as possible to realism in the counts of lineships on the OW, today you only see screening fleet of 1st and 2nd rates, think they are trying to get the 3rd rates the go to SOL regarding the cost, br and firepower

Edited January 11, 2019 by Guest
warships to lineships

[admin]

13 minutes ago, staun said:

•  

But to see the efffect on the change, do think we need to start by wiping all current VM. I have like 40. Lets all have like maybe 5 and remove the rest.

not yet

[staun]

2 minutes ago, Wyy said:

the devs want it to be as close as possible to realism in the counts of warships on the OW, today you only see screening fleet of 1st and 2nd rates, think they are trying to get the 3rd rates the go to SOL regarding the cost, br and firepower

And I think they are succeding in doing so. If you noticed I said this was in the Line of the way they wanted the game to move. 

Btw a 5 rate is also a warship, so we should all sail traders to get less warship in OW. Just teasing. I know you ment big war ships.

[staun]

Just now, admin said:

not yet

Why not? Should we not test the effect. Isent that the purpos for us?

[do not say dlc]

This is what you really are...

...an atm.

Edited January 11, 2019 by do not say dlc

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, admin said:

not yet

am i correct if you just want to check the mechanics how they work in practice and then balance their numbers

[staun]

So a person with no grasp on reality

8 minutes ago, do not say dlc said:

This is what you really are...

So a person with no realisme, no clue  abouth anything are right ore wrong?

[Slim McSauce]

8 minutes ago, Wyy said:

am i correct if you just want to check the mechanics how they work in practice and then balance their numbers

they're going to add rewards for VMs. I hope you saved

[SS Minnow]

Musket changes from the past two revisions are here:

 

musketsBA-29.pdf

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, staun said:

• Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)

 Think a lot of ppl will be glad to see this. The next weeks will show if the nerf hit the spot, ore we still will need some adjustment. But nice that has been done something about it.

• Chests now appear more often in Hunt and Search and Destroy missions

Not sure it will make much different, but I have no need to complaint about getting extra bonus. But have a hard time to see it motivates players to do those missions. Don't think it will bring the 2 hour man back in the game. Yes I do belive the 2 hour man is important to the game.

• Victory marks cannot now be purchased for doubloons on the War Server (they still can be purchased in the admiralty on the Peace server in the PVE Exchange tab)

Well guess it is a small way to make port ownership a bit more important. But to me it gets close to the days where only top nations got VM. We all saw how that enden. It just will make the gab even bigger and my fear that even less will do RvR. It might also have a negative effect on OW since it have the potential to change the balance to a larger group sailing in SOL and the rest in 5 rate. But think it is fine in line of the way we want the game to develop. Ships once more got a bit more expensive, if not a lot more.

But to see the efffect on the change, do think we need to start by wiping all current VM. I have like 40. Lets all have like maybe 5 and remove the rest.

Dude there is what like 300 *not correct number* of ports out there so don't say the top nations will get ports.  Any one can go capture and useless port that doesn't have a timer and get VM's from it.  This will make small clans actually fight over none important ports cause they will want to get there own VM's too.

If any thing gets wiped it should be every thing econ related.

Though @admin thanks for taking for ever to do this,  VM other than for permits has been pretty much useless....but up till this patch no one bought them cause they could just buy them with doubloons for cheap (which is ok on PvE server).  VM's need to have a value and something other than SOL permits to buy with them. I still think we should be able to trade them in for DOUBLOONS, so folks can have another means to get doubloons in game.   Are maybe some special paints or flags you can only get with VM's.

[staun]

2 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Dude there is what like 300 *not correct number* of ports out there so don't say the top nations will get ports.  Any one can go capture and useless port that doesn't have a timer and get VM's from it.  This will make small clans actually fight over none important ports cause they will want to get there own VM's too.

If any thing gets wiped it should be every thing econ related.

Well lets see what happens.

Just for the record, I didn’t say anything about nations. I said, I think the gab between players will be even bigger with this change. That it might affect OW.

But no I don’t think this will bring any more RvR. It will be the same doing RvR. But I could be wrong. Time will show. 

You also should notice that I said it is fine in Line with the way devs want to develop the game. Nice that they have plottet a heading and stearing after it.

Edited January 11, 2019 by staun

[Captain Cid]

5 hours ago, admin said:

Hotfix was deployed today 11th January

• Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)
• Chests now appear more often in Hunt and Search and Destroy missions
• Victory marks cannot now be purchased for doubloons on the War Server (they still can be purchased in the admiralty on the Peace server in the PVE Exchange tab)

 

 

@admin thx for update but seems to be broken.

tested with shooting skill and without and theres no difference anymore.

Sadistic Dentist tested with full boarding setup and sea muskets. he killed 40 men while npc was on defend.

Pls hotfix