Patrol ROE

[admin]

Time to discuss Patrol ROE.
What is bothering you in patrols?

We plan to add limited entry events or so called OW tournaments which will not happen in the lobby but will happen in the open world in designated areas. 

• Solo patrol - battles will start 1v1 and immediately close. 
• Group (or also clan based) patrol - battles will close as soon as 6 players join the battle

Such patrols will probably feature the challenge leaderboards as well, that provide limited number of attempts, helping players with limited time to have equal chance with those who play non stop.

[LeBoiteux]

22 minutes ago, admin said:

We plan to add limited entry events or so called OW tournaments which will not happen in the lobby but will happen in the open world in designated areas. 

• Solo patrol - battles will start 1v1 and immediately close. 

+ 1. Great idea.

[Georg Fromm]

And why the whole in the open world? Should the participants also have the risk of being attacked on the way there?
It will also be decisive where and how large these areas are. Such a tournament next to La Tortue would end in a huge bloodbath, but also affect many players who only want to pass through there.
Otherwise, certainly a good opportunity for our PvPler to compete in relatively balanced battles.

[Musculb]

33 minutes ago, admin said:

Solo patrol - battles will start 1v1 and immediately close. 

😍😍😍 yeah boyyyyy👍👍👍

[Hullabaloo]

Yes, the problem atm is that being 'brave' looking for a good balanced fight doesn't pay. Jumping in on the winning side gets you easy doubloons and the zerg always wins.
Also, there is no way of telling the state of the battle. ie. you enter what you think might be a balanced fight only to find that the players on one side are almost destroyed already.

Top of my head here but:

You set it up around battle groups

The BR of the battle group is added up. Battle Groups cannot tag individuals or smaller battle groups unless they are near equivalent BR.

Once a battle has started (with near equivalent BR) the battle can only be joined by an ammount of BR that would help to balance the fight. I think it would be possible to come up with an algorithm that worked in most situations.

If/when the battle balances to almost identical BR then the battle closes and they fight it out.

Example 1. a group of 1000 BR Pirates attack a group of 800 BR Brits - thats ok, the battle starts. The battle remains open (for 20 mins) but you are only able to join the Brit side and with a maximum of 400 BR. If that happens, then the Brit side would close but the Pirate side would then re-open to new entrants (again with a max of 400 BR). That way, the battle can still escalate but without unbalancing the battle too badly.

Example 2. a Pirate player 400 BR tags a Brit player 300 BR. thats ok so the battle starts. A massive Battle Group of Brits arrive 2000 BR. They can't join BUT, one of them 150 BR can leave the group and enter. He joins, It's exactly/nearly equal, the battle instantly closes, they fight it out.

Just an idea

[Hethwill]

Every Port Battle that is set ( by whatever mechanic ) should generate a Patrol Zone in the Port area with the rules you propose.

- I like the 1v1

- I like the squadron vs squadron

 

[Suricato Rojo]

PVP patrol is not PVP and it harms more than it helps real PVP.
The only real PVP generated with the PVP patrol is the one that occurs outside the area.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Suricato Rojo

[Hullabaloo]

22 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Every Port Battle that is set ( by whatever mechanic ) should generate a Patrol Zone in the Port area with the rules you propose

We need to move away from 'manufactured' battles through events and have things related to what's going on in the game world. But Port battles generating a patrol zone for the day is a good start.

or even further: hostility missions only raise to 90% but produce a patrol zone (for 2 involved nations only). The remaining 10% has to be produced by the zone, by sinking AI or enemy players. This would create a patrol zone that at least had some meaning.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, admin said:

Time to discuss Patrol ROE.
What is bothering you in patrols?

We plan to add limited entry events or so called OW tournaments which will not happen in the lobby but will happen in the open world in designated areas. 

• Solo patrol - battles will start 1v1 and immediately close. 
• Group (or also clan based) patrol - battles will close as soon as 6 players join the battle

Such patrols will probably feature the challenge leaderboards as well, that provide limited number of attempts, helping players with limited time to have equal chance with those who play non stop.

the 1v1 part is good About the group thing why not just do it by BR adjustments? x seconds to join the battle, then its BR adjusted to 1.5x difference

Edited November 30, 2018 by Guest

[Havelock]

Current problems i see with patrols:

• BR limit is meant to even out battles, yet is never met under current player numbers. If you really want to advertise even battles, the old "you can only join with x1.5BR" rule would work fine (especially since its not based on fixed BR numbers and therefore play activity)
• 1st rate patrols are kinda pointless because nobody risks lineships there atm. However it can lead to situations where large groups of lineships block the whole zone
• It offers easy loot stealing
• Damage values for different rates are not adjusted to rates. In shallows, when i need 1-2 battles for 20k damage, i usually quit after that because i wont reach 70k anyways. Pretty much the same goes for 70k in 4th rate patrols. For example, in shallows, you could add stages 10k - 1000 dubs and 50k - 3000 dubs and delete 200k and 500k stages.

[AeRoTR]

This topic already discussed and majority expressed their ideas about Patrol ROE,

 

 

This is cool;

18 minutes ago, Havelock said:

Current problems i see with patrols:

• BR limit is meant to even out battles, yet is never met under current player numbers. If you really want to advertise even battles, the old "you can only join with x1.5BR" rule would work fine (especially since its not based on fixed BR numbers and therefore play activity)
• 1st rate patrols are kinda pointless because nobody risks lineships there atm. However it can lead to situations where large groups of lineships block the whole zone
• It offers easy loot stealing
• Damage values for different rates are not adjusted to rates. In shallows, when i need 1-2 battles for 20k damage, i usually quit after that because i wont reach 70k anyways. Pretty much the same goes for 70k in 4th rate patrols. For example, in shallows, you could add stages 10k - 1000 dubs and 50k - 3000 dubs and delete 200k and 500k stages.

 

This is also very cool;

1 hour ago, Hullabaloo 'The Thief' said:

Yes, the problem atm is that being 'brave' looking for a good balanced fight doesn't pay. Jumping in on the winning side gets you easy doubloons and the zerg always wins.
Also, there is no way of telling the state of the battle. ie. you enter what you think might be a balanced fight only to find that the players on one side are almost destroyed already.

Top of my head here but:

You set it up around battle groups

The BR of the battle group is added up. Battle Groups cannot tag individuals or smaller battle groups unless they are near equivalent BR.

Once a battle has started (with near equivalent BR) the battle can only be joined by an ammount of BR that would help to balance the fight. I think it would be possible to come up with an algorithm that worked in most situations.

If/when the battle balances to almost identical BR then the battle closes and they fight it out.

Example 1. a group of 1000 BR Pirates attack a group of 800 BR Brits - thats ok, the battle starts. The battle remains open (for 20 mins) but you are only able to join the Brit side and with a maximum of 400 BR. If that happens, then the Brit side would close but the Pirate side would then re-open to new entrants (again with a max of 400 BR). That way, the battle can still escalate but without unbalancing the battle too badly.

Example 2. a Pirate player 400 BR tags a Brit player 300 BR. thats ok so the battle starts. A massive Battle Group of Brits arrive 2000 BR. They can't join BUT, one of them 150 BR can leave the group and enter. He joins, It's exactly/nearly equal, the battle instantly closes, they fight it out.

Just an idea

 

[Ellias]

2 hours ago, admin said:

Group (or also clan based) patrol - battles will close as soon as 6 players join the battle

Few groups will dominate and the rest will avoid it as happened in POBS. Quantity helps balancing quality. Be very careful while implementing this. 

[Angus MacDuff]

I love the concept of the Patrol zone where you are in the circle and cant run away.  The problem of course is the ganking. If you want to sail with your friends and jump on single ships, you can do this in OW.  At least there, the single ship has a chance to escape.  Patrol zone takes that chance away.  The gank squad has all the advantage and no risk.  Additionaly, if you see a battle in the zone, you can join on the high BR side AS A GROUP!  Its no risk farming.  Patrol zone fighting (PVE or PVP) is great with excellent rewards but the ganking is poisonous.  @Hullabaloo 'The Thief' made some very good points above and here is what I recommend:

- Patrol zone battles close and the swords disappear after 10 minutes. Even the winning player(s) is damaged in that time and not fit for fresh opponents.

- You cannot join a battle on the high BR side...period. (if BR is the same, take your pick)

- Only single ships can join a Patrol zone battle.  With the point above, this means no battle will be vastly unbalanced.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Havelock said:

Damage values for different rates are not adjusted to rates. In shallows, when i need 1-2 battles for 20k damage, i usually quit after that because i wont reach 70k anyways. Pretty much the same goes for 70k in 4th rate patrols. For example, in shallows, you could add stages 10k - 1000 dubs and 50k - 3000 dubs and delete 200k and 500k stages.

What they could do is to measure it to Broadside weight, use the santi, connie and niagara (hercules would be a joke) as reference for different firepower, think it would make it reasonable to get those damage numbers by doing that

[Slim McSauce]

54 minutes ago, Ellias said:

Few groups will dominate and the rest will avoid it as happened in POBS. Quantity helps balancing quality. Be very careful while implementing this. 

That's more due to repair meta and unbalanced obtaining of mods/ships. With 3 repairs there was no winning a 1v11 battle. With 3 repairs a 4v2 will be substaintially harder than it is now, thus more balanced and realistic. Still a problem but much less so.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[admin]

1 hour ago, Ellias said:

Few groups will dominate and the rest will avoid it as happened in POBS. Quantity helps balancing quality. Be very careful while implementing this. 

they will and they won't. 
Sometimes players want to have clarity and Solo or Group patrol gives you exactly that. Ability to find a solo or a small group engagement without any interference from ganking (as long as you get to the area like in the old school classic wow). 

I personally am very excited about frigate only 1v1 patrol for example. Clarity and simplicity and still with risk and chance to have more action on the way or back

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, admin said:

they will and they won't. 
Sometimes players want to have clarity and Solo or Group patrol gives you exactly that. Ability to find a solo or a small group engagement without any interference from ganking (as long as you get to the area like in the old school classic wow). 

I personally am very excited about frigate only 1v1 patrol for example. Clarity and simplicity and still with risk and chance to have more action on the way or back

How is your plans on how it should work? Lets say i sail with my prussian character with a friend from danish nation, if we then see a fleet of 5 higher rankes ships and dont want to get ganked by them we immediately tag and stay in that battle for 25 mins before leaving. It can easily be exploited

[Sir Texas Sir]

3 hours ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Every Port Battle that is set ( by whatever mechanic ) should generate a Patrol Zone in the Port area with the rules you propose.

- I like the 1v1

- I like the squadron vs squadron

 

PUtting a large red zone around the Port Battles ports shouldn't be a patrol zone, but it could be boosted rewards for PvP in those zones like how POTBS had the red zones as you start and finish AGRO until the port battle happend.  We use to keep certain areas red/hot on purpose just for the PvP.  We didn't have to gank newbie zones and capitals cause every one knew you could go and get PvP in those areas.

 

I personally think the Pirates capital should be move to Kidds.   Than again I don't thin k pirates should be a starting nation, you should have to become one (like how you use to have to by attacking a friendly).   Than make Mort a PvP hot zone, by making it Neutral for all to use (like a free town).  Any one can use the ports in that zone to craft and hang out, do so at own risk cause it should be the middle hot zone of the map for PvP.

[Slim McSauce]

3 hours ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Every Port Battle that is set ( by whatever mechanic ) should generate a Patrol Zone in the Port area with the rules you propose.

You're the third person to suggest this across a years time, it's time to implement!

[Vernon Merrill]

28 minutes ago, Wyy said:

How is your plans on how it should work? Lets say i sail with my prussian character with a friend from danish nation, if we then see a fleet of 5 higher rankes ships and dont want to get ganked by them we immediately tag and stay in that battle for 25 mins before leaving. It can easily be exploited

Is that a game mechanics problem?  Or is it a human nature problem?  

I mean, you're already at war with your "friend" and technically SHOULD be attacking him.

Humans being humans and ALTS are the reason we can have nice things.

That being said, ROE's can be develop that ATTEMPT to deal with most of these situations.

[jodgi]

4 hours ago, admin said:

Time to discuss Patrol ROE.
What is bothering you in patrols?

What has bothered me the most is people going in dreadfleets and stomping everything. With normal OW timers dreadfleets can be avoided by keeping your eyes peeled and mindful tagging. In patrols they may descend upon a duel or small fight after five, ten or thirty minutes. People seek to avoid loss so those battles are very rarely reinforced, a common thing is for others to join the strong side to stay safe. Even if people trickle in they tend to reinforce the already stronger side, so big fights up to the BR limit haven't been very common.

Patrol zones intention

The zones are meant for fighters. People going in shouldn't be concerned with losing their ship, only fighting and damage done is the ideal. They should promote big fights. The zones should be a place where people don't come up on closed battles as can be the case in OW. People shouldn't expect to win but they should expect a challenging, fun and possibly big fight. Patrol zones could be an alternative to OW play which mainly revolves around "winning the war", "assymetrical warfare" and privateering. 

Suggestions

Besides big port battles patrol zones could offer the gameplay that looks like that in the promo videos. Port battles are end-game content that not everyone can easily access or afford, but patrol zone play has a far lower threshold.

We should keep long timers to avoid the "closed battle" frustration.

Let there be BR entry limits to promote equal sides and thus challenge and fun for all involved.

Long timers and BR entry limits should enable big fights.

Growing and equal sides fights should take precedence over people's desire to play together in groups. A group coming to an open patrol zone fight should be prepared to be split in order to satisfy the BR entry limits. (This may pose a technical challenge with people clicking synchronized? We can discuss technical solutions if it comes to that.)

First tag mechanics should stay as they are in OW to enable groups to start new fights in the zones.

I'm very positive to special patrol zones with leaderboards. I focus on normal patrol zones because I can't arrange my life around what happens in game and when it happens. I may not be a so called casual player, but my time investment over the duration of a given week is very much casual. If 1v1 patrols pop up almost daily I would be all over that whenever I have available playtime.

I want to shoot at ships as much as possible, all other concerns are completely secondary and patrol zones without ganking are a perfect match for someone like me.

Comments

Secondary PvP opportunities outside the zones is not a problem. A "bloodbath" along the ingress/egress of the zones is a good thing that provides PvP content to people who don't like the patrol zones ideals:

3 hours ago, Suricato Rojo said:

PVP patrol is not PVP and it harms more than it helps real PVP.
The only real PVP generated with the PVP patrol is the one that occurs outside the area.

Rojo and myself have diametrically opposing philosophies regarding "real PvP", but patrols could provide for both.

3 hours ago, Polish Privateer said:

1v1 patrols is cool idea in theory, but it can end up with griefing or endless battles until player runs out of repairs. You force that to be in OW, nice. What if I have 6 friends and we switch rounds attacking 1 solo guy? We can go back to port, restock repairs, he must fight until he runs out of repairs.

^So be it. Some people may get frustrated. But if you read the description of the patrol zone you should expect to lose your ship. I would be thrilled to be "griefed" in this manner as I would get back to back duels until repairs are gone. The Pvp/time ratio would be fantastic and I would get a ton of practice. You will get 1v1 fights but you may not keep control over how they happen.

3 hours ago, Hullabaloo 'The Thief' said:

We need to move away from 'manufactured' battles through events and have things related to what's going on in the game world. But Port battles generating a patrol zone for the day is a good start...[ ] ...This would create a patrol zone that at least had some meaning.

It's an ok idea if it happens in addition to regular and reliable patrol zones. I would get bummed to wait for a patrol zone that might not happen or happen in a place outside of my limited outpost reach. Also keep in mind some of us don't need "meaning", PvP is meaning upon itself. 

58 minutes ago, admin said:

I personally am very excited about frigate only 1v1 patrol for example. Clarity and simplicity and still with risk and chance to have more action on the way or back

EXACTLY!!!

[Angus MacDuff]

1 hour ago, admin said:

I personally am very excited about frigate only 1v1 patrol for example. Clarity and simplicity and still with risk and chance to have more action on the way or back

I got 1v1 last night.  Simply wait outside the patrol zone for someone approaching.  Kinda defeats the purpose though.  he was pretty mad

 

[jodgi]

6 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I got 1v1 last night.  Simply wait outside the patrol zone for someone approaching.  Kinda defeats the purpose though.  he was pretty mad

 

We can't care for people who get mad for getting PvP on the way to a PvP zone. Maybe he wanted guaranteed doubloons for damage but you forced him to fight for it in normal OW. This is so ok, purpose completed and not defeated.

[Hullabaloo]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

4 hours ago, Hullabaloo 'The Thief' said:

We need to move away from 'manufactured' battles through events and have things related to what's going on in the game world. But Port battles generating a patrol zone for the day is a good start...[ ] ...This would create a patrol zone that at least had some meaning.

It's an ok idea if it happens in addition to regular and reliable patrol zones. I would get bummed to wait for a patrol zone that might not happen or happen in a place outside of my limited outpost reach. Also keep in mind some of us don't need "meaning", PvP is meaning upon itself. 

Absolutely. There is definitely a place for easy access PvP just for the hell of it. I'm not against having them as an option for players like yourself. Atm though (with these low numbers and the changes in Protection zones) we are getting close to the point where the patrol zone is the only PvP option. Incursions into enemy territory, disrupting enemy trade, openworld hunting and piracy, Port hostility, these should all be opportunities for PvP too. Everyone I know who has left the game has cited this as the reason they have stopped playing.

[Hawkwood]

6 hours ago, admin said:

Time to discuss Patrol ROE.
What is bothering you in patrols?

We plan to add limited entry events or so called OW tournaments which will not happen in the lobby but will happen in the open world in designated areas. 

• Solo patrol - battles will start 1v1 and immediately close. 
• Group (or also clan based) patrol - battles will close as soon as 6 players join the battle

Such patrols will probably feature the challenge leaderboards as well, that provide limited number of attempts, helping players with limited time to have equal chance with those who play non stop.

Basic cutters which can join battles. Basic cutters which are farming dabbaloons in PZ, by attacking AI. Not cool, since others are risking their ships too.

Unbalanced fights, 5 vs 2, 8 vs 3 and so on. In my opinion it shouldn`t be possible to join one side if battle is not balanced.

Reading about some 1,3 BR, i don`t know what difference would this make. Either a battle is balanced, or it is not. 1 vs1, 2vs2 3vs3, and so on.