19 mln vs 60 thousand - the cost of crew - moderated

[Enraged Ewok]

I am on board with only 50% crew loss on surrender with 1 dura.

[akd]

So zero reason not to ram and sink as long as you have more than 1 dura? In fact, multiple incentives to do just that, especially against a 1 dura ship.  I don't like it...

[ulysse77]

So now we are supposed to indulge in "Human-trafficking"???

well, historically, if a 3rd rate came accross a frigate, he could requisition the crew to fill is compliment. I believe vice-versa was true too. Since frigate usually saw more action then a 3rd rate on patrol....

[Ned Loe]

well, historically, if a 3rd rate came accross a frigate, he could requisition the crew to fill is compliment. I believe vice-versa was true too. Since frigate usually saw more action then a 3rd rate on patrol....

Exactly, maybe devs can add an option trade crew on the OS while in the group? For example 6 guys in the group, 1 with only 50% crew. 5 other members can send small % of their crew to the guy who needs help to balance whole fleet population and operate whole 6 ships at 90%. 

[EricKilla]

Exactly, maybe devs can add an option trade crew on the OS while in the group? For example 6 guys in the group, 1 with only 50% crew. 5 other members can send small % of their crew to the guy who needs help to balance whole fleet population and operate whole 6 ships at 90%. 

This seems easily abuseable. You have a large number of alts and you can just use them to replenish your crew completely without needing to return to base.

[Ned Loe]

This seems easily abuseable. You have a large number of alts and you can just use them to replenish your crew completely without needing to return to base.

I think Crew ships were real and could resupply fleets. The thing is there will be limited source of sailors. Using alt to move crew to your 50% ship is not a big deal or is it? And by surrendering you loose dura and teleport to port anyway, I could be wrong. 

[xAzDKr]

I do not like the idea of making crew a limited resource/day. That would turn this game into Clash of Clans style with long wait times between being able to do anything, it would also punish nations with less land and make it much harder for them to get any real foothold on the map. Also, limiting crew will mean considerably less PVP as people will not only want to protect their ships, but also their crew. 

 

I do like the idea of limiting crew and hiring crew, but crew should be in unlimited supply at ports, like basic cutters.

Edited April 27, 2016 by xAzDKr

[akd]

I do not like the idea of making crew a limited resource/day. That would turn this game into Clash of Clans style with long wait times between being able to do anything, it would also punish nations with less land and make it much harder for them to get any real foothold on the map. Also, limiting crew will mean considerably less PVP as people will not only want to protect their ships, but also their crew.

 

I would suggest that rather than being limited, crew are instead subject to increasing costs as more are hired from the port.  You will have to pay the last 50 sailors in a port more than the first 50 recruited. A port should never run out of sailors, because the more the price goes up, the more willing passing crews would be to jump ship. 

 

This would also be a good incentive to stop basing navies in free ports, since the drain / cost of hiring crews there should be very high.

[Captain]

I think many are forgeting the ( quite historical ) surrender way out to save the crew. Boils down yet to more options to the captain.

 

 

You know, i completely missed that.

 

If this mechanic will give people a strong incentive to surrender rather than fight until sunk, I completely support it 100% and have no criticism. 

 

Can anyone confirm that surrendering will always save the crew on 1 dura ships?

Edited April 27, 2016 by Captain

[Arsilon]

So a small nation musters enough together to build a 25xSantisima fleet to defend one of their few remaining ports.  Alas they get smashed and all get sunk.  

 

Who knows how long it will be before they can recover the crew enough for the next battle.  25 dead captains respawning with their remaining 50 crew and can only sail a 7th rate until the supply of crew trickles back in.

 

I can't imagine how hard the resupply of crew balance would have to be in order to not make large nations overly powerful and cripple small nations on their heels.

[Musuko42]

So zero reason not to ram and sink as long as you have more than 1 dura? In fact, multiple incentives to do just that, especially against a 1 dura ship.  I don't like it...

 

This is the exact reason why I think crew losses should be a setback regardless of the durability of your ship; the game should encourage players to want to avoid losing crew...or, at the very least, add cost to ramming tactics so it's a little less cheap to do.

 

So a small nation musters enough together to build a 25xSantisima fleet to defend one of their few remaining ports.  Alas they get smashed and all get sunk. 

 

I could be wrong, but I think (and I hope) that the game is evolving towards the point where we won't all be sailing around in the massive 1st rates all the time.

 

1st rates, historically, were expensive and rare. So too should it be in the game. A fleet of 25 Santis in one battle is just plain silly (and pretty boring, I would think). They were flagships, not common brawlers. There should only ever be a handful of them in any given battle...let alone 25 of them.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Musuko42

[Woody051]

The cost of crew

Everyone remembers that the cost to build HMS Victory (and refit it several times) did not exceed 150,000 pounds over the whole career. The size of the fleet in 1800 was around 1000-1200 ships (in various states from ready for action to being built)

Total expenses of the British Navy only in 1800 were 19 mln british pounds.  

• 90% of this cost were salaries and provisions - not ships

Current ships are cheap and easy to get for 2 reasons

• Crew does not get paid
• Crew does not die
• Officers don't take the share of your prize (in reality officers and crew took a lot away leaving captain only with a share - especially if he was a pirate)

We want to fix it. Proposal is actually simple

 

 

Alright, so far it sounds like were on the right page here in the mindset of being open to new ideas and changes. Especially since this has plausible factors which would be further implicated on the idea of pirate crews as in historical context this is how the crews ran in terms of share of the prize etc..

 

Changes to crew

• Crew is a limited resource in ports (cannot be crafted). 
• Crew has to be hired in ports or impressed from enemies by means of boarding
• Crew is provided in certain number per day (a-la labor hours)
• Crew hire cost includes lifetime salary and insurance
• You lose crew when you lose the ship (all durabilities)
• You lose crew completely even if did not lose durabilities if you explode
• You don't lose crew if you surrender (maybe - not sure)

Losing 25 santisimas will lose your nation 25000 sailors

Whole british navy staff in 1812 was 140,000 sailors

 

 

First off i would like to see proposals for crew-loss mitigation and replenishment.

 

I would also ask will crew ever become sick? During combat will they be wounded but be able to return to service?

 

Will there be shipwrecks (Randomly or specifically) that players can enter the instance to search for surviving crew or leftover supplies, modules, or money?

 

Well crew have different values of morale based upon how they came to be employed? Trained from their home country, Trained from a Colony, Captured Crew, Prisoner Crew, etc.. ?

 

Are Marines apart of this "crew" number tally per nation or are they calculated differently? Will there be different types of combat infantry such as Militia/Irregulars, etc..?

 

Will crews or marines have veterancy level?

 

Example ideas for crew-loss mitigation and replenishment may include:

• Ship Surgeons, Doctors, Apothecary, Medical Apprentices, etc.. for an "officer slot", crew slot, or a module slot
• Module - Expanded Sick Quarters - Expanded Surgical Quarters which would be a similar idea to extra hammocks but in the idea that this area of the ship could attend for more sick or injured and be tiered based on the quality of the mod
• Module - Sterile bandages, Extra Bandages, Herbal Remedies, Herbal/Topical Handbooks, Medical Remedies, Trauma Handbooks, Medical Journals, etc..
• Module - Fresh Rations, Cured Meats, Citrus Rations
• Port Building - Drill School
• Port Building - Field Hospital / Naval Hospital
• Game Action - Press Gangs - Additional crew can be purchased to fill vacancies but for additional costs (perhaps lower morale)
• Ship Crafting - Hospital Ship (to sail with the group) injured crew can be transferred to the player and then transported to a port.
• NPC Ship - Capture Crew - Perhaps portions of crew or maybe specifically ships of your own nation (with contraband) who are NPC's can be captured and some of the crew may join your nation's stockpile.
• Privateering Profession - Similar to the idea above but this position would be Exp. based and these players must be licensed by their nation to privateer for their faction. In doing so this profession could be limited to the only players capable of capturing NPC (perhaps even player) crews and transporting them to a capital/regional capital to enter to the nation's crew stockpile. With Privateering level it could give perks such as unique ships, higher percent quantities of crew captured, additional money for capturing ships, etc.. This profession could be a means of re-populating a nation's crew stockpile.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship%27s_doctor

 

Crew is attached to Captain (like officers) not to ships. You don't need to move crew from ship to ship. It transfers with you - the rest stay (wait) in barracks.

 

• Boarding players will be more important - (impress from enemies). 
• Some ports will generate more crew per day and will become valuable targets in port conquest. Crew regeneration increases if you port does not change hands (does not fall to enemy nations).
• Protecting ports will become more important (crew reservers)

 

 

 

Will captains have traits/stats/bonuses? Will there be missions or achievements to improve these?

 

Will players be able to overcrew their ships more if they change how it is equipped? Can i take off some cannons to add more Marines? 

 

Can i add more crew at the expense of speed or turning?

 

Can i posses marines under my influence and leave them posted at a specific harbor?

 

What happens when most of the crew is tied up by players who are offline?

 

Can players who prefer to do crafting or trading voluntarily take fewer crew from the stockpile so that they can leave the extra crew for the fighting ships?

 

Nobody can control who or how many join a nation/faction. Are all these new players going to tie up crew too? What if players have alt accounts doing it to hurt a nation on purpose?

 

 

More populated nations will have less crew per player (total crew pool of 250,000 for 1000 players)

Less populated nation will naturally have more crew per player (total crew pool 100,000 for 100 players)

 

Discuss and propose changes/improvements/alternatives 

 

 

 

Will the crew stockpile only be effected by players online?

 

Can crews be shipped/sent/requested from the homeland country/nation?

[Pagan Pete]

Changes to crew

• Crew is a limited resource in ports (cannot be crafted). Port battles will drain recruits, like rum from a spilled mug.
• Crew has to be hired in ports or impressed from enemies by means of boarding
• Crew is provided in certain number per day (a-la labor hours)
• Crew hire cost includes lifetime salary and insurance How will this be calculated?
• You lose crew when you lose the ship (all durabilities) When you lose each durability? or the last durability?
• You lose crew completely even if did not lose durabilities if you explode If it blows up, you already lost it! lol
• You don't lose crew if you surrender (maybe - not sure) good option, should apply to cargo too, whatever cargo I don;t take… tha is! Bahahahaha

[Jeheil]

Thinking more on crew.

 

So currently crew is silly. We may like silly but its silly. I leave a battle 5 days sail from home with 200 out of my 450 crew alive after a graping good time...and poof...I am back to full. So clearly this is silly.

 

Crew quality (and their leadership) is simply not factored in. The British Navy could reload their cannons (and do a good job of it, packing charges well etc) faster than their opposing navies, this cost time and money (training and resources) to achieve, it was not due to some innate ability conferred by eating cabbage or some such.

 

So making crew a valuable and important part of the game is very sensible. In general I think the nature of the changes are good, I do think though for game balance there should be some variances from RL

 

1) A captain should have a 'core' crew that from port is always available to them that will allow them to always (at least) man, lets say a frigate. So I am not after a splendid but failed defence of a port left with nothing to sail for 3 days......or until my magic compa$$ wood lets me hire more.

2) Holding a 'region' should confer more manpower to the ports within (be it labour hours or recruits).

3) Crew quality should be factored in, let us hire 'grey' 'green' 'gold' and 'purple' crew

4) Crew loses at sea should have an impact, yes we dont want to have to go back to port for each mission, but perhaps a %age of crew lost in battle (10% ?) stay lost or out ?

[Destraex]

I suggest impress does not give more than 50% of the captured crew.

As for the crew system. I don't mind it. But think it would need testing. I would be happy if crew became a thing.

 

I wonder if clans will be able to transfer crew to another friendly first rate captain. Thus enabling him\her to sail again straight away.

Outside of battles lack of fresh food\water would also possibly affect crew causing attrition. But the Caribbean is probably too small to worry about that.

[Hethwill]

I suggest impress does not give more than 50% of the captured crew.

As for the crew system. I don't mind it. But think it would need testing. I would be happy if crew became a thing.

 

I wonder if clans will be able to transfer crew to another friendly first rate captain. Thus enabling him\her to sail again straight away.

Lack of fresh food would also possibly affect crew causing attrition. But the Caribbean is probably too small to worry about that.

 

Clan are meta so it becomes a null thing to even try to code in, but having a Lord or Lords establish a dedicated infrastructure in deteriment of a resources production setup could be worth a try. Would not increase the town pool of available crew but would increase the rate of crew, thus depleting the manpower faster in wartimes if needed.

 

Now the Food thing can be used. Necessity of trading supplies - iberian meat, beer, wine - between ports that demand it to keep up with the "recruitment needs".

[Destraex]

I am not suggesting coding in only clans transfer crew. I should have changed the word clan to "friends".

 

We all know that clans will be the ones with the pearl hats on though. That is natural. We just need to let this happen so the rest of the casual players know what nations they can attack. (bit off topic that sentence. Ignore it).

[James Cornelius]

Again, agree with what Devs have suggested. I proposed in game chat sometime ago a similar mechanism specifically for crew to be a type of resource that was not infinite. As you gain XP so does your crew and to "replenish" you must get from a pool in port. If you surrender, you do not lose crew so there is an incentive to do so. Hopefully officers will be introduced at the same time and provide benefits along same lines to current upgrades.

 

So I think if you had XP with crew (giving effect like rum rations, etc to represent a veteran well trained crew) then replenishing basic "pressed" sailors would be free (or minimal cost) but purchasing veterans very expensive and -here's a kicker - make it only possible to get certain XP ranked crew based on your own XP. I justify this by pointing out very successful captains found it easier to get volunteers as opposed to unsuccessful or unknown captains. 

[Belize]

Will there be a way to push up the regeneration on a port? Like going to fishing and deliver this fish as food?

[mikawa]

I think crew management is - beneath other changes in gameplay - a very important decision to determine, wether the game evolves into a typical grinding game or not.

I like the game as it is; it gives anyone who hasn't tons of free time but only 1-2 hours in the evening to spend the possibility of playing along with others who may have more gold and bigger ships, but that doesn't really matter. What matters most are the sailing and fighting skills of the player, the love for the ships and maybe sometimes a live oak hull is the winning factor, but not always. This means, sucess in game depends mostly on human factors, not on computer calculations. This is quite unique. Introducing crew, special officers, special abilities with benefits for gunnery / sailing / healing, etc. might destroy that completely. Please don't drive the game into that direction. I love the old videos from sidestrafe's trafalgar sessions - pure PVP combat, fair, simple and plenty of fun. Please have this in mind.

[Vaan De Vries]

 

Changes to crew

• You lose crew completely even if did not lose durabilities if you explode

Like everything, but especially this. Now there won't be so many crazy explode suicides in PVP and PBs.

 

Good changes! Will wait for them!

[Vaan De Vries]

I think crew management is - beneath other changes in gameplay - a very important decision to determine, wether the game evolves into a typical grinding game or not.

I like the game as it is; it gives anyone who hasn't tons of free time but only 1-2 hours in the evening to spend the possibility of playing along with others who may have more gold and bigger ships, but that doesn't really matter. What matters most are the sailing and fighting skills of the player, the love for the ships and maybe sometimes a live oak hull is the winning factor, but not always. This means, sucess in game depends mostly on human factors, not on computer calculations. This is quite unique. Introducing crew, special officers, special abilities with benefits for gunnery / sailing / healing, etc. might destroy that completely. Please don't drive the game into that direction. I love the old videos from sidestrafe's trafalgar sessions - pure PVP combat, fair, simple and plenty of fun. Please have this in mind.

Without crew as a valuable resource RvR is useless now. You can effectively maintain a nation having 2-3 ports to cover all needed resources.

 

It's still quite hard to lose a crew. You need to sail one dura ship or explode

[CptEdwardKenway]

Original idea is - you lose crew if you lose your ship (not if you lose crew in battle). We don't want players to run back to port after every battle.

+ Hire a doctor

How about a timer till crew is complete again. I mean you engage a very important ship. You demast it and killed around 30-40% of the crew but he manages to escape. So a second fleet tries to intercept the enemy fleet and you have to engage every ship from zero because crew gets refilled and ship got repaired. If some almost lost his ship he should have a penalty if he gets engaged again after he left the battle.

So maybe there is 5 or 10 minute timer till ships can repair in open world and till ships are fully crewed again.

And I wanted to say ships are not that cheap at the moment. They are pretty expensive. Some sell crafting notes for 800.000 or more.

[shaeberle84]

 

Changes to crew

• Crew is a limited resource in ports (cannot be crafted). 
• Crew has to be hired in ports or impressed from enemies by means of boarding
• Crew is provided in certain number per day (a-la labor hours)
• Crew hire cost includes lifetime salary and insurance
• You lose crew when you lose the ship (all durabilities)
• You lose crew completely even if did not lose durabilities if you explode
• You don't lose crew if you surrender (maybe - not sure)

 

Please do not introduce another FIXED ressource. There are multiple problems with labour hours as the game is right now. Crew as a ressource sounds good. But you should at least introduce something like a EU trader system that lets you get crew at any time for high costs.

 

I would suggest that after a battle a large fraction of lost crew is replenished as most of combatants could be wounded instead of killed. So, even if you loose say 50 crew on a Constitution, you would replenish 25 and could continue sailing without going back to port.

[NavalActionPlayer]

'K.I.S.S.'

 

1. Crew lost in battle are lost in OW
2. Crew can be replaced in OW using 'crew replacements' (treat like ship repair kits...maybe 1 'crew replacement' = 25 crew). Consider the replacements as being sent out to the ship by fast packet boats rather then being carried aboard your vessel.
3. 'crew replacements' are purchased in port and are costly.
4. If crew are replaced in port then, like with repairs, the cost is a bit cheaper

 

If the price of replacements 'kits' is set correctly it will help move the balance of costs towards crew as Admin wants.

 

Also, this approach would not mean that a player has to return to port after every battle any more than they have to for repairs.

 

I'd also argue this approach is, overall, more simple to implement (broadly a copy of the ship repair kit code) and easier to manage (for players) than (in my view) the complex proposal from the Devs.

Edited April 28, 2016 by NavalActionPlayer