19 mln vs 60 thousand - the cost of crew - moderated

[Eishen]

Pirates should only be possible to craft and consume rum and wine. ;-)

I am completely for a maintenance mechanic. The most expensive part should be to keep your ship working. The bigger the ship, the more you have to pay.

Different crew qualities would be nice effect aswell.

Maybe add national characteristics to the crew. French crew might be better at sailing, British at reloading etc.

 

totally agree on the maintenance..

 

 crew qualities has interesting posibilities with a crew experience system , you could select abilities for your crew (better reload time, aim, quick with sails) given they reach "levels", xp would increase in combat  (and slower with "days at sea") , and decrease with losses, sinking, captures ...unlike player XP crew should  decrease levels . 

 

on the contrary I do not think we should open the can of "national expertise" 

[Azzak]

Thing is : it shoud not be that expensive to craft 1st rates (why should it be ?), but expensive to man them. Thus this crew system is a step in a good direction. 

 

 

However it would be essential that players in frigates and less DON'T lose the ability to fight because some clans decided to engage 25 santi in a PB and lost them completely, and then decided to resplenish their crew by visiting all the nations ports. (+ politics ): Clans who possess ports could also exclude all other nations players for entering them, as a  manner to secure crew for themselves. So how can be not make this happen ? If the 25 santis lost it's their fault, why should they pump all crew from ports and penalize other players ? 

In EVE if some big corps lose their ships they lose an absurb amount of money, but it doesn't have any impact on the life of others.

 

One way would be to have a limit on how much crew a player can get per X day.week, so one player can't take and lose 3 santis in one day. But then it's a lot of artificial restrictions. 

 

 

I also think that crew lost in battle should be lost in the OW. For the sake of realism keeping your crew alive is the most important thing. Of course a certain % could be wounded, healed and fit for duty after battle, but attrition should be a factor that could be interesting to implement. Sucessfully boarding enemy ships could provide much needed crew for fleets, in order to keep them fit for continuous battles.

Note : to make it easier for players doing missions, we could make it so crew are lost in OW only in PVP (one enemy player in battle).

Edited May 2, 2016 by Azzak

[Hethwill]

It is NOT about 1st rates. It is about continuous maintenance of ships and crews whatever rate and use.

 

Obviously it will be most visible at the ship-of-the-line level but doesn't start nor end there.

[tiggily]

This "reg. per day" is a bad idea... Same as the labor hours are (sry devs no offense). Those mechanics dont help noone. The trading and money making should be more important then the rest. Crew with skill = very expensive. Then you dont need to talk with players about "couldnt recruit more men because none offered". 

 

A ship should be worth much more then now. Even the crew must be worth alot. Then those dumb fights and trollfights will end up. 2 Days ago we killed 3 Trincs who attacked a players snow and died because of we jumped in In a World where death will cause any kind of stronger penalty, they would never ever engage those battles. And when they loose their crew because of that stupid engage, I love the mechanic even more then now.

 

 

 

@Azzak 1rd. should be horrible expensive. Also every ship should be much more expensive then now. More then 100 Guns for the price of 4-5 Million which you can earn easily per Week / some of us per day. When I would be the game designer, a normal frigatte - as strong as it is - would cost 4 million. A Santi would be 30 million or more. Those ships should be for the interest of the large companies / royal navy / Alliances

[Karpfanger]

Hello,

 

maint costs for ships are ok ... BUT ... it should be

- not to complex

- not to expensive

 

It should be possible for people with a job to play this game.

It shpould be possible to go on some weeks of vacation without going bankrupt because of the maint costs

 

BR

Berend

[Hethwill]

Hello,

 

maint costs for ships are ok ... BUT ... it should be

- not to complex

- not to expensive

 

It should be possible for people with a job to play this game.

It shpould be possible to go on some weeks of vacation without going bankrupt because of the maint costs

 

BR

Berend

 

It is. If you do not use a ship you cannot possibly lose crew.

 

Vacations, you do not use a ship, any ship. Everything will be as you remember.

[tiggily]

 

It should be possible for people with a job to play this game.

It shpould be possible to go on some weeks of vacation without going bankrupt because of the maint costs

 

BR

Berend

 

So honestly: Cool that you have got a job. I have got one, too. But why should the game be easy? Be smart enough to earn cash fast, then you dont need to panic. And if you cant, then play on a lower leveled ship or fire the crew.

 

There are 2 ways, a game can deal.

 

1: Be for stupid kids with green arrows on the ground, so that everyone know where to go, whom to speak and stuff like that. End-Gear is reached in 2 Days and voila... NEXT.

2: Make it authentic and hard (not realistic), so that people need to do stuff, to get stuff.

 

When you want to play a game after work, without invest time into it, then Naval Action isnt the right game for you, Mr.. And I really hope, that the developer ignore those points, when they rebalance things. Lazyness must die.

[Horatio Rasta]

Reading this thread is really frustrating.
Theres a gread proposal from the devs which should give the game some additional depth,balance out ratio of 1st rates and make them feel more valuable, without adding too much complexity or any grind.

But nearly everyone opposing this seems to misunderstand certain aspects of the proposal.

It is my understanding that

1) People cant drain national crew reserves, for every player there is a certain number of allocated crew per day. A big nation has a higher total crew count but its divided between more players.

2) As it was said before and as i say again you only lose crew if you lose your last dura or explode. You dont have to take a break from killing things only to refill your crew, when dura is lost you are already ported back to the nearest port.

3) Losing your last dura is already risky because you are losing your upgrades, adding increased risk only for people using ships with higher crew counts because its more than likly there total crew isnt sufficient to crew the same ship again for that day.

[Lannes]

So honestly: Cool that you have got a job. I have got one, too. But why should the game be easy? Be smart enough to earn cash fast, then you dont need to panic. And if you cant, then play on a lower leveled ship or fire the crew.

 

There are 2 ways, a game can deal.

 

1: Be for stupid kids with green arrows on the ground, so that everyone know where to go, whom to speak and stuff like that. End-Gear is reached in 2 Days and voila... NEXT.

2:  to do Make it authentic and hard (not realistic), so that people needstuff, to get stuff.

 

When you want to play a game after work, without invest time into it, then Naval Action isnt the right game for you, Mr.. And I really hope, that the developer ignore those points, when they rebalance things. Lazyness must die.

 

I am sure the devs would be very happy only with people with your tastes in the game. They should listen to you and indeed STOP players from buying Naval Action if they are (what you see as) 'lazy'. There is no room for 'lazy' playing and 'stupid kids with green arrows on the ground'. That's speaking your mind! You are a breath of fresh air! I am so glad you have a job. It's probably a highly responsible one that pays very well, from the comments you make and the way you write.

PS. I forgot. I Iike that uncompromising stance of yours: 'Make it authentic and hard (not realistic), so that people needstuff, to get stuff.' Well put! An impressive turn of phrase is also the juxtaposition of: Let's not be realistic, but be authentic. Yep, the two really go well together. Not realistic but authentic. One for the books, Mr tiggly!

Edited May 2, 2016 by Lannes

[Teamski]

Devs,

 

I am at the end of my rope with this game.  Now you want to have to find crew in addition to notes, coal and the rest of the rigmarole. ....... We end up spending hour after hour of building up mats to get that ship just to get it sunk and you get to enjoy the battle IF it was matched.  I have been bleeding off my capped 3rd rates at a frightful pace while trying to grind to get that friggin' Santi.......and for what?  I just watched the streamed battle of Carlisle that matched two complete fleets of 1st rates.  Many lost their ships just to have to start over.  What kind of game is that?  The game is currently broke now that the only ships "of value" seem to be 1st rates; what is the purpose of the game as a whole?  I might be in the minority here, but I am getting pretty tired to trying to play catch up.  The open world is not a compelling place....it is a grind.  When I get Rear Admiral and my Santi, I will probably call it a day.  I hope the game finds a way to get more people into matched pvp rather than getting ganked outside ports or having to play second fiddle screener with a 3rd rate.....ahistorical to say the least.

 

-Ski

Edited May 2, 2016 by Teamski

[Enraged Ewok]

Devs,

 

I am at the end of my rope with this game.  Now you want to have to find crew in addition to notes, coal and the rest of the rigmarole. ....... We end up spending hour after hour of building up mats to get that ship just to get it sunk and you get to enjoy the battle IF it was matched.  I have been bleeding off my capped 3rd rates at a frightful pace while trying to grind to get that friggin' Santi.......and for what?  I just watched the streamed battle of Carlisle that matched two complete fleets of 1st rates.  Many lost their ships just to have to start over.  What kind of game is that?  The game is currently broke now that the only ships "of value" seem to be 1st rates; what is the purpose of the game as a whole?  I might be in the minority here, but I am getting pretty tired to trying to play catch up.  The open world is not a compelling place....it is a grind.  When I get Rear Admiral and my Santi, I will probably call it a day.  I hope the game finds a way to get more people into matched pvp rather than getting ganked outside ports or having to play second fiddle screener with a 3rd rate.....ahistorical to say the least.

 

-Ski

 

By introducing the crew changes, the blob of first rates suddenly becomes far more risky. Why risk the first rates for anything but the most important objectives, when third and second rates can perform the same function with less risk?

[Neptune]

This will be an interesting change. Can only hope it doesn't make players more scared to PvP than they already are. I Just hope that doesn't happen, some players hate losing duras & I can only imagine what buying crew & maintaining them is going to add to players not wanting loss in PvP. But one thing this will do is stop players from suicide every time they catch fire and know they are going to sink or just want to use their cheap ship to take out a 1st/2nd rate.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Acadian44

[Bloody 9]

Hour many hours a day does one have to spend in the game to be competitive in trade, crafting and pvp?  What numbers of clients are the develops looking to seed this game?

[Vernon Merrill]

Devs,

 

I am at the end of my rope with this game.  Now you want to have to find crew in addition to notes, coal and the rest of the rigmarole. ....... We end up spending hour after hour of building up mats to get that ship just to get it sunk and you get to enjoy the battle IF it was matched.  I have been bleeding off my capped 3rd rates at a frightful pace while trying to grind to get that friggin' Santi.......and for what?  I just watched the streamed battle of Carlisle that matched two complete fleets of 1st rates.  Many lost their ships just to have to start over.  What kind of game is that?  The game is currently broke now that the only ships "of value" seem to be 1st rates; what is the purpose of the game as a whole?  I might be in the minority here, but I am getting pretty tired to trying to play catch up.  The open world is not a compelling place....it is a grind.  When I get Rear Admiral and my Santi, I will probably call it a day.  I hope the game finds a way to get more people into matched pvp rather than getting ganked outside ports or having to play second fiddle screener with a 3rd rate.....ahistorical to say the least.

 

-Ski

Many would argue that if your entire goal is to merely be able to man the biggest ship, then you're doing it wrong....  If you just want PEW! PEW! PEW!, with no chance of loss, use the duel function.  

[VonVolks]

I am massively pro this change.

 

Its a great step to limiting 1st rate mania. All the people crying about it down t seem to realise you dont HAVE to sail the biggest ship possible.You can sail every ship and have fun. 

If you NEED to sail a 1st rate then fine, grind your way up to it, but be ready to either hug it in port ["my precious!"] because you are too scared to sail it, or to sail it, possibly lose it and then tear your hair out.

 

Losing a 1st rate was no joke.And the more this game reflects that the better. They should be brought out for the big boy battles and there should mucho pain on all sides as they are lost.

[Teamski]

Many would argue that if your entire goal is to merely be able to man the biggest ship, then you're doing it wrong....  If you just want PEW! PEW! PEW!, with no chance of loss, use the duel function.  

 

 

Fine, but make it worthwhile.  I would love to see a game overhaul doing away with a lot of the grind.  The game is lacking a major amount of theme as a result.  If people want more meaningful PvP, I have a few ideas:

 

1.  At each rank, the admiralty assigns you a ship of a certain class commensurate with the rank itself.  This ship has a unique historical name that is yours that reflects nationality (of course, the name may be duplicate depending on the number of people in that class).  If you cap another ship, it retains its original name  This ship is always a basic and at the bottom of the current class and only has 1 durability (avoids rammers).  You CANNOT undercrew a higher class ship.

 

2.  Reward builders with higher XP and ONLY they can build anything above basic ships depending on their crafting level.

 

3.  Tie in mechanics that reflect the advancement of rank and responsibility, not ones that just bore the hell out of people.  Perhaps as you advance, you can be assigned a specific squadron within the game and you have to work with your squadron to tie in with the big world.  Those with higher rank have sole access to the flags and can determine strategy by coordinating with other squadrons.  

 

SO, Yeah, require the recruitment of crews, but assign a ship to the captain....kinda like they really did back in the day.

 

-Ski

Edited May 2, 2016 by Teamski

[Banana_Joe]

I think risking the valuable ships doesnt make the players avoid Pvp. They play maybe a bit more realistic. Maybe dont fight to death anymore and consider escaping a viable solution. Usually having no fear in computer games leads to an unrealistic playstyle.

When somethung is at risk you suddenly get a lot more tactical and thoughtfull.

[Hater_Actual]

I'm excited for this to be implemented and expanded upon, e.g. Consumable rations and ammunition. It adds much more depth and versatility. As crew requirements and load outs can be tweaked, smaller ships can become more prevalent again, traders will have an important role, the list goes on. I do have a few concerns though, one that it be easy to recruit new crew to replace their fallen, and two I worry how the national pool will work, seems it could be open to abuse and or block out players, but that's why NA is in alpha and I'm interested to see how it works!

[Fastidius]

happy to see how it goes either way. personally i think you need a fame system for crew acquisition but whatever you want to try is worth a run

[tiggily]

@Lannes: There are a lot features missing to make it absolutly realistic. But most of the ingame content - esp. the ships - are authentic. And yeah! Many people are lazy in our days. I just read some of your posts aswell You call it stress free. There are thousands of stress free games out there. Most of them are not as good as Naval Action. People with less time should also be able to play that game. Thats correct. But I really hate the Idea, that the game content should be easier to achieve, so that those people could sail with their 1rd ships without investing time. When you have less time, things will take much longer. Thats fair, thats ok and the only way to treat with this.

---back to topic---

Edited May 3, 2016 by tiggily

[Karpfanger]

So honestly: Cool that you have got a job. I have got one, too. But why should the game be easy? Be smart enough to earn cash fast, then you dont need to panic. And if you cant, then play on a lower leveled ship or fire the crew.

 

There are 2 ways, a game can deal.

 

1: Be for stupid kids with green arrows on the ground, so that everyone know where to go, whom to speak and stuff like that. End-Gear is reached in 2 Days and voila... NEXT.

2: Make it authentic and hard (not realistic), so that people need to do stuff, to get stuff.

 

When you want to play a game after work, without invest time into it, then Naval Action isnt the right game for you, Mr.. And I really hope, that the developer ignore those points, when they rebalance things. Lazyness must die.

 

... a typical case of not or missunderstanding my post but making a great hullabaloo about it

 

but to explain my post ...

 

This post related to the mechanic of ship costs and maint cost for ships and crew ... not related to the entire gameplay

 

(I don't like to say something to your No. 1.)

 

A good game has to be a challenge, has to be complex and you have to need time to be good at it ... in my opinion ...  or in your words ... authentic and hard ... I totally agree with you.

 

But the mechanic of maint of ships should be easy and you shouldn't be forced to be online every day (or eyery 12 hours) to not going bankrupt because maint cost.  (thx to Hethwill for your answer to this point)

 

It's a difficult thing for everey developer to create a good game which challenges experienced players and not scares new unexperienced players at the same time. I hope the devs of Game Labs will manage this.

 

I like this game and look foreward to new and more complex content.

 

Btw ... I'm not interested in if you have a job or real life ... I don't need any advice from you how to play or to quit this game ... but thx for your post tiggily.

 

Regards and enjoy the battle

 

Berend

Edited May 3, 2016 by Karpfanger

[tiggily]

Hey Berend,

 

then I get you wrong. Sorry about that And it was no direct offense. Next I need to write it with another mood.

 

Kindest regards

 

Tiggily

[Hethwill]

Naval Action is a bipolar game, excuse me the analogy.

 

On one end we have the "simmers & wargamers", they take it with immersion, playing a characters, experiencing the historical set of the game and the combat. Simmers and wargamers enjoy the complexity, the infinite discovery of new way to control and challenge of the machine, the intricacies of the tactics and politics of war, the number 1 and wingman sorties. It is not about the ship as much as it is about the mission.

 

On the other end we have the MMO competitive crews. They live for the fight to control and claim to be the best. The machine, the tactics, the historical setups are nice but are only means to an end. The difficulty curve might be a put off in many cases but the grind will see them through. Many meta game and find original ways to shortcut. In the end they are also a part of NA with their competitive ruthless ways.

 

A correct and credible mechanic like crew management ( and officers down the dev line ) will not be a put off to any of the mentioned groups.

[Blackjack McGee]

To start with I like the idea of making crew a more integral aspect of the game.  However, I am worried about the "time sink" aspect that has been articulated above.  The bottom line is we need to ensure the game remains playable for everyone while increasing the joy of playing the game.  Therefore I propose the following which I believe would achieve the Developer's goals and also increase the players satisfaction.

 

1) Make four additional "Crew" Upgrade slots.  These slots can be filled by either Sailors (ship speed bonus) or Gunners (reload bonus).  These Upgrades would follow the established pattern of Basic, Common, Fine, Mastercraft, and Exceptional.

2) Make one additional "Crew Specialist" slot.  I would suggest adding a second bonus slot like the current 2/4 - 3/5 upgrade slots.  This slot could be filled with either the Sailor or Gunner or a specialist (Marines, Carpenter (repair), Weaponsmith (aiming), Doctor (Crew HP), Navigator (OW ship speed), etc.

 

3) Make the upgrades available at ports.  Basic at all ports, Common at select ports, and even fine, occasionally at important ports (ie, Capitals).

4) Make the upgrades craftable.  Basic requires a little gold and perhaps rum.  Common requires two basic, gold, and rum.  Fine requires two Common and gold.  Mastercraft three common and gold (say 100k) and Exceptional (two fine) and gold (say 250k).

5) Make the crew upgrades a potential drop from all vessels including traders.

 

This method would be easy to implement from the developers point of view and easy to manage from the players point of view. A true win-win situation.  However, the gameplay implications would be tremendous and just imagine the various individualization options for players.  Maybe for trade ships you forego gunners and go with sailers.  For Ports, you can stack gunners.  For PvP maybe a combination.  Anything would be possible.

 

Using this method crew would become an extremely valuable resource and something that could be lost if you lose the last dur on your ship.

 

Just an idea.  Keep up the good work.

[Woody051]

The cost of crew

Everyone remembers that the cost to build HMS Victory (and refit it several times) did not exceed 150,000 pounds over the whole career. The size of the fleet in 1800 was around 1000-1200 ships (in various states from ready for action to being built)

Total expenses of the British Navy only in 1800 were 19 mln british pounds.  

90% of this cost were salaries and provisions - not ships

Current ships are cheap and easy to get for 2 reasons

Crew does not get paid

Crew does not die

Officers don't take the share of your prize (in reality officers and crew took a lot away leaving captain only with a share - especially if he was a pirate)

We want to fix it. Proposal is actually simple

 

Alright, so far it sounds like were on the right page here in the mindset of being open to new ideas and changes. Especially since this has plausible factors which would be further implicated on the idea of pirate crews as in historical context this is how the crews ran in terms of share of the prize etc..

 

Changes to crew

Crew is a limited resource in ports (cannot be crafted).

Crew has to be hired in ports or impressed from enemies by means of boarding

Crew is provided in certain number per day (a-la labor hours)

Crew hire cost includes lifetime salary and insurance

You lose crew when you lose the ship (all durabilities)

You lose crew completely even if did not lose durabilities if you explode

You don't lose crew if you surrender (maybe - not sure)

Losing 25 santisimas will lose your nation 25000 sailors

Whole british navy staff in 1812 was 140,000 sailors

 

First off i would like to see proposals for crew-loss mitigation and replenishment.

 

I would also ask will crew ever become sick? During combat will they be wounded but be able to return to service?

 

Will there be shipwrecks (Randomly or specifically) that players can enter the instance to search for surviving crew or leftover supplies, modules, or money?

 

Well crew have different values of morale based upon how they came to be employed? Trained from their home country, Trained from a Colony, Captured Crew, Prisoner Crew, etc.. ?

 

Are Marines apart of this "crew" number tally per nation or are they calculated differently? Will there be different types of combat infantry such as Militia/Irregulars, etc..?

 

Will crews or marines have veterancy level?

 

Example ideas for crew-loss mitigation and replenishment may include:

Ship Surgeons, Doctors, Apothecary, Medical Apprentices, etc.. for an "officer slot", crew slot, or a module slot

Module - Expanded Sick Quarters - Expanded Surgical Quarters which would be a similar idea to extra hammocks but in the idea that this area of the ship could attend for more sick or injured and be tiered based on the quality of the mod

Module - Sterile bandages, Extra Bandages, Herbal Remedies, Herbal/Topical Handbooks, Medical Remedies, Trauma Handbooks, Medical Journals, etc..

Module - Fresh Rations, Cured Meats, Citrus Rations

Port Building - Drill School

Port Building - Field Hospital / Naval Hospital

Game Action - Press Gangs - Additional crew can be purchased to fill vacancies but for additional costs (perhaps lower morale)

Ship Crafting - Hospital Ship (to sail with the group) injured crew can be transferred to the player and then transported to a port.

NPC Ship - Capture Crew - Perhaps portions of crew or maybe specifically ships of your own nation (with contraband) who are NPC's can be captured and some of the crew may join your nation's stockpile.

Privateering Profession - Similar to the idea above but this position would be Exp. based and these players must be licensed by their nation to privateer for their faction. In doing so this profession could be limited to the only players capable of capturing NPC (perhaps even player) crews and transporting them to a capital/regional capital to enter to the nation's crew stockpile. With Privateering level it could give perks such as unique ships, higher percent quantities of crew captured, additional money for capturing ships, etc.. This profession could be a means of re-populating a nation's crew stockpile.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship's_doctor

 

 

Crew is attached to Captain (like officers) not to ships. You don't need to move crew from ship to ship. It transfers with you - the rest stay (wait) in barracks.

 

Boarding players will be more important - (impress from enemies).

Some ports will generate more crew per day and will become valuable targets in port conquest. Crew regeneration increases if you port does not change hands (does not fall to enemy nations).

Protecting ports will become more important (crew reservers)

 

Will captains have traits/stats/bonuses? Will there be missions or achievements to improve these?

 

Will players be able to overcrew their ships more if they change how it is equipped? Can i take off some cannons to add more Marines? 

 

Can i add more crew at the expense of speed or turning?

 

Can i posses marines under my influence and leave them posted at a specific harbor?

 

What happens when most of the crew is tied up by players who are offline?

 

Can players who prefer to do crafting or trading voluntarily take fewer crew from the stockpile so that they can leave the extra crew for the fighting ships?

 

Nobody can control who or how many join a nation/faction. Are all these new players going to tie up crew too? What if players have alt accounts doing it to hurt a nation on purpose?

 

 

More populated nations will have less crew per player (total crew pool of 250,000 for 1000 players)

Less populated nation will naturally have more crew per player (total crew pool 100,000 for 100 players)

 

Discuss and propose changes/improvements/alternatives

 

 

Will the crew stockpile only be effected by players online?

 

Can crews be shipped/sent/requested from the homeland country/nation?