Patch 30: Combat and boarding feedback

[Slim McSauce]

57 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I've considered this myself and I don't think I agree with you that the Captain who wins (and doesn't kill) should receive a tangible reward.  Its a good feeling when you chase someone away, or make a close escape for that matter.  Having actual rewards involved would open up too many areas for abuse, however.   

Sure, just for the sake of argument 2 frigates tie up a 2nd rate for 45 minutes to an hour.  Not to say the battle was pointless, the frigates feel out the 2nd rate, shots are exchanged from a far, someone closes the gap, they get hit and pull back to repair, repeat that a few times. Seems like all the power goes to the people who attack, because they got the opportunity to feel out a 2nd rate, possibly tie him in for reinforcements to come and they can leave whenever they please, when THEY feel satisfied. On the other hand the line captain may feel like he's been played with for many minutes, and at the end even though he managed to keep them at bay for quite the time he receives almost no reward, very little experience either even though that is a considerable win on his part. Sure he didn't get a kill but you have to remember that it's in the frigate captains court to make a mistake in order to get killed, the line captain has almost no say, no amount of good sailing or gunnery is going to secure a kill on a ship that throughout the entire battle retains the ability to disengage at will. This falls into more of kiting but also in general inconclusive battles leaving an unsatisfying feeling of time spend unproductively. I would say if a SOL captain in this scenario he would receive at the very little a medal for that specific action. A single medal at the very least acknowledge his performance, a win is a win so are we going to not reward a player for wining even when the battle which took place took a reasonable chunk of his time and energy? seems a little skimpish. Maybe if the defender was rewarded for beating back attackers, the attackers would think twice about their attempt.

[Zlatkowar]

On 4/16/2019 at 1:30 PM, huliotkd said:

a week ago i lost a Vic in boarding vs 2 lgv refit and a bellona because the 2 lgv resist to my full broadside on the masts and hull, so they came back sterncamping while bellona was in boarding also receiving my broadsides closerange.

1st rates must be more lethal, an HP nerf could resolve

Don't know what happened since the "hp adjustment" hotfix but Vic and Buc both feel like they're made of paper now. Went out hunting with a L'O and it's still insanely strong. Did the same with the Vic against same kind of targets, same strategy and I had to kite and repair... I think it's a waste of potential to make one OP ship per tier and have the rest feel sub par.

And I am quoting Buc because before this hotfix Vic and Buc both felt similarly strong, and now they feel similarly weak.

[huliotkd]

42 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

You can still shoot masts off really easily, but you have to aim for them, I don't think a mast should fall over when you shoot the hull, that doesn't make sense.

nope, the mast is kept straight by the shrouds. destroying structure you destroy the small base of that mast.

to better explain,

imagine putting a broom uspide down and holding it vertically with a hand holding the base of the broom...it's very difficult and a slight inclination (wind on sails) is enought tomake if fall.

this is how the masts of ships work

[znôrt]

11 minutes ago, huliotkd said:

nope, the mast is kept straight by the shrouds. destroying structure you destroy the small base of that mast.

to better explain,

imagine putting a broom uspide down and holding it vertically with a hand holding the base of the broom...it's very difficult and a slight inclination (wind on sails) is enought tomake if fall.

this is how the masts of ships work

the masts are also tightly attached to the hull with ropes, it's the force of this whole structure what holds them in place, as long as no large enough continuous area of support is lost and the base is probably the strongest point. it is much easier to blow up a few anchor points and that could actually break the mast without a even a direct hit. plus the mast itself is thinner higher up.

really, if you want to demast, shooting at the hull is not the best idea.

[Teutonic]

28 minutes ago, Zlatkowar said:

Don't know what happened since the "hp adjustment" hotfix but Vic and Buc both feel like they're made of paper now. Went out hunting with a L'O and it's still insanely strong. Did the same with the Vic against same kind of targets, same strategy and I had to kite and repair... I think it's a waste of potential to make one OP ship per tier and have the rest feel sub par.

And I am quoting Buc because before this hotfix Vic and Buc both felt similarly strong, and now they feel similarly weak.

I think it is due to the higher damage of heavy cannons compared to the 1st rate HPs.

Personally the HPs for all ships are right where I think they should all be. But i suppose if anything, lineships may like another small 5-10% hp bonus. A few battles with lineships showed me that repairing early is important and attempting to diminish incoming damage is even more important.

 

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Teutonic said:

Personally the HPs for all ships are right where I think they should all be.

Can't agree with that.  Herc now has half the HP of the bigger frigates...including L'Hermoine.  I think it's been nerfed too much.

[LeBoiteux]

35 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Can't agree with that. Herc now has half the HP of the bigger frigates...including L'Hermoine.  I think it's been nerfed too much.

The Hercules must only be compared with the ships of her class, that is the 9-pdr ships (= the shallow frigates, the Niagara and LRQ), not to 12-pdr frigates such as L'Hermione. And her figures match those of her class.

btw, it shows there's actually a real difference between the 9-pdr ships and 12-pdr frigates while some are still in the same 'rate'.

Edited April 17, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[Angus MacDuff]

Just now, LeBoiteux said:

The Hercules must only be compared with the ships of her class, that is the 9-pdr ships (= the shallow frigates, the Niagara and LRQ), not to 12-pdr frigates such as L'Hermione. And her figures match those of her class.

Neither Le req or Niagara are the same class as Herc.  I would hesitate to call her a 9-pdr frigate when she sports 18's on a lower gundeck. I'm not saying she should have the same HP as L'Hermoine, but if L'Hermoine has 7000HP, Herc should be around 5000

[LeBoiteux]

9 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Neither Le req or Niagara are the same class as Herc.  I would hesitate to call her a 9-pdr frigate when she sports 18's on a lower gundeck. I'm not saying she should have the same HP as L'Hermoine, but if L'Hermoine has 7000HP, Herc should be around 5000

Same class : 9-pdr ships with the other shallow frigates.

Don't hesitate. Call Hercules a "9-pdr frigate" or a "shallow frigates". About the same fire power, about the same HP.

Everything is fine.

It would be heaven if all 9-pdr ships (shallow frigates, the Niagara and LRQ) were gathered in a same 'rate', 'class' or whatever (for missions...).

Edited April 17, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[Zlatkowar]

56 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

I think it is due to the higher damage of heavy cannons compared to the 1st rate HPs.

Personally the HPs for all ships are right where I think they should all be. But i suppose if anything, lineships may like another small 5-10% hp bonus. A few battles with lineships showed me that repairing early is important and attempting to diminish incoming damage is even more important.

I get you, and I mostly apply this with success... With a L'O. It seems much much more difficult with a Vic.

[huliotkd]

2 hours ago, znôrt said:

the masts are also tightly attached to the hull with ropes, it's the force of this whole structure what holds them in place, as long as no large enough continuous area of support is lost and the base is probably the strongest point. it is much easier to blow up a few anchor points and that could actually break the mast without a even a direct hit. plus the mast itself is thinner higher up.

really, if you want to demast, shooting at the hull is not the best idea.

true, rigging was what keep masts in position IRL but how to simulate the lost of rigging in a game? IRL chains were the shot used for, but in this game chais are used to make holes in sailcloth.

so reducing stability of masts as soon as structure reduce its HP is a good way to simulate demast by losign anchor points at the base of the mast

Edited April 17, 2019 by huliotkd

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

On demasting:

Damage to sails could affect masts strength in a same way structure do right now : when a chain shot make a hole in a sail, in fact it would cut some rope too most of the time.

Also i think reducing the number of sails should increase the strengh of the masts, as sails force exerce some tension over masts (during strong winds, captains used the minimum number of sails to prevent masts to brake) In a same manner, captains used battle sails when exchanging broadsides for different reasons, but protecting masts integrity was one of them.

 

On damage model:

I think the damage model at the moment feel allright in general (masts dmg could be improved) but something generally overlooked as we got used to it for a long time, is how easy access to carronade break nearly everything.

All in the damage model push in favor of close range broadsides:

-shooting masts with precision  + penetrating = you need to get close,

-penetrating hull = the closer the better,

-dmg per penetrating shot = huge increase at close range,

-agile & fast ship able to bounce from fast angling & close-in with impunity

-multiple repairs favor being able to deal the maximum damage in short period of time, instead of dominating from distance.

 

At a point where there is nearly no reason for using medium or long cannon where you can use carronades.

6 & 7th rates needs these 12pd- 18pd carronade to survive, but i think 32pd carronade and larger should be rarer. Make them cost dbl or cm or watever (rare blueprint etc..), they are supposed to be powerfull, but show me someone prefering 9pd cannon instead of 32pd carronade, the whole balance between ships/ woods / guns is impacted by these large carronades and they are easy so easy to craft.

Fight a same ship as you equiped in carro while sailing in a fir or oak ship + cannons, either you can kite & chain & escape or you will probably loose fast => everyone looking for mandatory teak wo.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[Sea Archer]

I agree, the long range fighters are definitely not favoured by current mechanics. 

One aspect is that chainshot does nearly no damage from a certain range. Though I cannot see why there should be none. The velocity of shots will not dramatically drop during flight. Therefore I expect especially for chainshot hitting sails and ropes, that some good damage is inflicted. 

The second point are the repairs. Especially hull repairs do no good for the battles. Here players can hide missing skill behind a stacking powerful mods. My proposal is to remove hull repairs completely from battle, and give limited  repairs for sails and rigging. 

Full repair can be done after battle. 

[--Privateer--]

3 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

I agree, the long range fighters are definitely not favoured by current mechanics.  

Most people just call it kiting, this play style should not be catered to. When one or both sides of the battle are too afraid of losing their ship to ever actually engage, it's boring. I've done some 1v1s where I could out repair any damage the enemy was doing, not because of any repair mods, but because they never got close enough to do any real damage.

 

[Barbancourt]

9 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

Most people just call it kiting, this play style should not be catered to.

 

Hmmm, that's not what I call "kiting."  You're talking about disengaging.  Perhaps the tag rules should be changed so that a certain amount of damage has to be done over a period of time to keep ships in the battle instance, rather than simply landing shots. 

[--Privateer--]

2 hours ago, Sveteran said:

I've seen so many suggestions that would help your mechanics

What suggestion would keep you from being re-tagged after your battle ends? Do you want to teleport to port after battle, with your ship and cargo? Wouldn't that be just as unrealistic as someone teleporting from across the map, except more easy to abuse?

[Beeekonda]

8 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

I agree, the long range fighters are definitely not favoured by current mechanics. 

One aspect is that chainshot does nearly no damage from a certain range. Though I cannot see why there should be none. The velocity of shots will not dramatically drop during flight. Therefore I expect especially for chainshot hitting sails and ropes, that some good damage is inflicted. 

The second point are the repairs. Especially hull repairs do no good for the battles. Here players can hide missing skill behind a stacking powerful mods. My proposal is to remove hull repairs completely from battle, and give limited  repairs for sails and rigging. 

Full repair can be done after battle. 

1. Whats a Long Range and why it should be favored? During the Age of Sail guns were inaccurate and powder was meh, so ships would start the battle shooting at each other from long distance, sometimes doing random damage, before they engage each other in a effective battery range.

2. How one can hide his lack of skills under hull/any repairing? 

[LIONOFWALES]

On 4/16/2019 at 4:03 AM, Vernon Merrill said:

As someone who sails 6th and 5th rates retry much exclusively, I can assure you that a full broadside from a COMPETENT captain in a lineship will, in fact, knock any of my vessels out of action.  

Assuredly... this is how it should be... after all, in many naval fights a ship after being severely shelled well enough would be ordered to strike her colors... some battles only lasted a few minutes. Others went on and on, from morning to the next day... to the next day.

[LIONOFWALES]

9 hours ago, --Privateer-- said:

Most people just call it kiting, this play style should not be catered to. When one or both sides of the battle are too afraid of losing their ship to ever actually engage, it's boring. I've done some 1v1s where I could out repair any damage the enemy was doing, not because of any repair mods, but because they never got close enough to do any real damage.

I only kitted when I was attacked in the past by over whelming numbers... but since the great chain shot nerf "kitting" as it were is next to impossible. And having limited chain shot has made it harder for the solo player to survive.

I am in favor of having all shot types be manageable by the player... to choose how much ball or chain is on the ship... these numbers would be large, and ammo could be a new in game consumable. Double shot would just make you go through all your ball faster... we would have to keep track of this then and would need to be careful how we plan our escapades... could you imagine running out of ammo in a port battle and being required to board in order to win? Just a thought. This would help replicate the total carnage of battle. I personally would eat this up and enjoy this aspect in game... manageable ammos, as in... hmmm lets see, I think I need more chain for myself over ball because I know I am running a trade ship and want to survive... or, hmmm... my friends and I are going to do a port battle and we want more ball ammo and maybe 7 broadsides of chain... but no more chain than that. We could decide our shot load out and tailor the loadout to near perfection for the type of game we want to play… weather kitting is our game... or brawling. We after all cant help that the French tended to engage at longer ranges as not to risk over damaging their own ships, the British on the other hand liked their Carros historically and usually got close and messy. Both styles of fighting were used and to good effect historically in a few situations each. Fighting a kitting player would be frustrating... but it is only a wear down tactic... eventually after about half an hour of long range engagement, the players will grapple and their will be a boarding, I know because this is how I used to play... most other players just weren't as patient as I was... I got called boring and after 15 minutes of long range fighting, in my experience... most players bow out and leave.

Of course it is evident to note that the last player that bowed out of a game attacked me in a Pandora, I was far away at the start of the battle in my Diana, I maneuvered around through the wind and forced the player to follow me beating the wind... their ship was far more maneuverable than mine, I felt I had no choice but to destroy their advantages.... I planned to deliver a crippling blow of double shot once I gained the wind advantage, but the player got impatient and left... but I am telling myself that they counted the better part of valor and realized they bit a bit more off than they could chew.

Any way this is what happens to me regularly, no complaints here though, I use these mechanics to stay alive in a world full of team hunters. The solo player cant be too careful.

Good luck and have fun!

[LIONOFWALES]

8 hours ago, Sveteran said:

If You Escape You Should Escape! 

@adminConsider this... you are invisible to all player and all players are invisible to you after escaping battle for at least 1 full minute. This would insure far less successful repeated gank attempts. Seems simple and would it be possible to input this into game? If one minute is not enough just try 2 minutes then... but the two way invisibility is important.

Cheers

 

 

[Sea Archer]

4 hours ago, Beeekonda said:

1. Whats a Long Range and why it should be favored? During the Age of Sail guns were inaccurate and powder was meh, so ships would start the battle shooting at each other from long distance, sometimes doing random damage, before they engage each other in a effective battery range.

2. How one can hide his lack of skills under hull/any repairing? 

With long guns I want to be able to shoot ships equipped with carronades from the distance without recieving shots myself. What else is the purpose of long guns? This must be a working tactic, although due to the high ships speeds it is quite difficult to use.

I therefore understand why many players use carronades and close quite aggressively to fight in short range. It is the much easier way to fight the enemy. 

2. The one who takes a lot of hull damage due to his bad tactics, can, when his sails are still ok, run for some time and repair a lot of damage, then return and fight on. The amount of repairs depends on mods.

I have experienced it several times, usually I was not able to repair the same amount of hull damage and finally lost the battle. Today this is a valid tactic and I cannot blame the players to use it, but it is not what I understand as (semi)historical naval battles. 

It would be ok for me, if the player discontinues the fight and runs before sinking (a captain should save his ship in the first line), I just hate that repairing of nearly full hitpoints of the hull during battle. It shouldn't be more than plugging holes. For the rig, I would allow some repairs that were somehow from a historical point of view plausible.

[--Privateer--]

Seems like the discussion moved from combat mechanics to ROE, but I'll just roll with it.

Patch 30 Combat and Boarding Mechanics work, and I think they work very well. Instead of asking for major changes on a system that works fine, we should focus on fixing aspects of the game that don't currently work, like crafting and rare woods.

Just because it's possible to be ganked or revenge fleeted doesn't mean there's some flaw with the current system, it means people have to learn not to sail slow ships solo into enemy waters or deal with the consequences.

[Zlatkowar]

1 minute ago, --Privateer-- said:

we should focus on fixing aspects of the game that don't currently work, like crafting and rare woods.

Agree on this part.

[AeRoTR]

5 hours ago, Beeekonda said:

1. Whats a Long Range and why it should be favored? During the Age of Sail guns were inaccurate and powder was meh, so ships would start the battle shooting at each other from long distance, sometimes doing random damage, before they engage each other in a effective battery range.

2. How one can hide his lack of skills under hull/any repairing? 

You are correct. Long range gunnery is not possible in this game, one side needs to get close, or other runs away. 

Repairs should be limited, able to repair up to 7 times in battle instance, is stupid. After 2-3 repairs back to where battle started. Start over, repeat till battle ends, this is what happens in big ships. 

[LIONOFWALES]

13 minutes ago, Sveteran said:

Longer invis time for the side thats been engaged

The only issue is in the sped up anti gank mechanic.. if we are invisible and the other enemy players are invisible to us after battle for say 2 minutes then how could they regank if you pass over the horizon.at normal speed while invisible?.. having an extended time for being engaged just seems a little redundant to me.

I will post nothing more here now regarding this... please continue on topic from this point... sorry mates.

Edited April 18, 2019 by LIONOFWALES