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Player selected ship 2017 - Suggestions


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Captains. We need to fill 3 gaps in the ship line up. Please propose ships for the consideration.  Requirements in broadside guns Light frigates 32-36 guns (we have no ships in this rang

For Dutch, The Vrijheid 74 gun   The 7 Provinciën 74 gun Prins Friso 50 gun The Leeuwenhorst/Edam 56 gun   slighty lower gun count but unkown 30 gun  

Le Redoutable, the ship that fought the HMS Victory at Trafalgar and almost boarded it, also the ship that "killed" Nelson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Redoutable_(1791) More than 100

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6 hours ago, VCNT de Velasco said:

is true that we have the Santísima Trinidad, which was the largest and most powerful ship of the line that has ever existed, but this is the only purely Spanish ship in the game and yet it is indisputable that the presence of Spanish ships in those times were, at that time, much more relevant than those of any other nation, in America as in any other part of the known world.

The most powerful i can't tell, but the largest wasn't the Santisima, it was the Mahmudiye. A first rate from the ottoman navy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_ship_Mahmudiye

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1 hour ago, Sella22 said:

Le Monarque, 74 guns, 1747 

The bibles about 1780's French 74-gun ships : 

https://ancre.fr/en/ouvrages-de-base-en/9-vaisseau-de-74-canons-1780-traite-pratique-d-art-naval-1780-en-quatre-volumes-base-de-la-collection.html

https://ancre.fr/en/ouvrages-de-base-en/73-plans-de-la-charpente-du-v74-canons.html

Inside the latter, the decoration of :

- Le Centaure, 1782 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Centaure_(1782)

- Le Superbe, 1784 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Superbe_(1784)

Edited by LeBoiteux
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48 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:
 
Original name: le Monarque
Laid down in 1745
Launched in ?
Struck of lists in 1747 (taken)
Built by B. Ollivier
Place of building: Brest
Other names : none
 
Data:
Length x breadth x  depht in hold
166' x  43' x 20'6" (Pied du roi)
53,92m x 13,96m x 6,66m
Displacement ~ 2 600 tx
 
Artillery of origin:
1st Deck / 2nd / F'c'sl/Q'deck
28-gun of 36-pdr / 30-gun of 18-pdr / 16-gun of 8-pdr
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1 hour ago, no one said:

The most powerful i can't tell, but the largest wasn't the Santisima, it was the Mahmudiye. A first rate from the ottoman navy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_ship_Mahmudiye

Mahmudiye wasn't the most powerful but she certainly was something to be reckoned with. Launched in 1829 her armament was a staggering 128 guns, her size even more so impressive. Comparing her to Santissima shows just how much monster she really was.

According to Threedecks Mahmudiye's stats are;
Length of Gundeck: 67.9704m
Breadth: 18.796m
Depth in Hold: 9.144m
Draught Forward: 7.929m
Draught Aft: 8.2623m

Santissima was;
Length of Gundeck: 61.299m
Length of Keel: 52.3768m
Breadth: 16.1588m
Depth in Hold: 8.0794m

6.jpg

While the measurements don't quite give the same stats or readings its clear how much larger the Mahmudiye was over the Santissima. where its a little less easy to distinguish is the broadside weight, mainly because it looks like threedecks is unfamiliar with turkish gun weightings, the Okka system seems to escape them a little, the broadside value they have given taken from an source talking about her armament in 1832 gives her a broadside of 934.21kg, however the Okka weighting doesn't compare so easily to the weightings given to her so her broadside would be much closer to 1000kg, possibly a little over. Comparing her at even the conservative 934.21 to the Santissima gives a fairly dramatic difference, Santissima and her heaviest armament in 1805 was given at a total broadside weight of 675.648 kg, giving Mahmudiye a staggering advantage of around 300kg. This being said she is certainly not the most heavily weighted broadside going, as from around about 1815 onwards navies started to experiment with arming their first rates with 32lbs on all decks, for example the Caledonia class was given 120 x 32lb guns meaning a broadside of a staggering 1741.8kg, over 10 years before Mahmudiye was launched.

Threedecks also misses out some of the important aspects of the Turkish fleet, which is their attraction to huge calibre stone guns similar to those I mentioned in my recent post about the tirar bombe, allegedly the Mahmudiye was armed with a few of these over her career, whether they are modernised versions the 44 okka from my previous post or different calibres I'm not quite sure but its obvious she did carry some staggeringly huge guns.

The other thing that is worth mentioning about Mahmudiye is that she would have been incredibly sluggish in the water, the Ottoman navy had a poor history of naval design despite heavy investment in their navy. She would have sailed like a bathtub even compared to much older super heavy first rate ships of the line, a mix of conservative naval design mixed with a completely filled in waist leaving her rather vulnerable in combat despite her heavy armament. The other thing to consider is that she was fairly poorly constructed and maintained, its quite the miracle she survived as long as she did, her service was littered with frequent dry and wet rot, she was notorious for hogging and being a bit leaky, despite this she still maintained a huge level of prestige, mainly due to her dramatic size.

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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La Bretagne is a mixed ship, the biggest French sail ship build is le Valmy with the length to 64,20 m. Out of time of the game. Launch in 1847.

5 231,17 tons.

Edited by Surcouf
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On 8/30/2017 at 8:45 PM, admin said:

Captains. We need to fill 3 gaps in the ship line up.

Please propose ships for the consideration. 

Requirements in broadside guns

  • Light frigates 32-36 guns (we have no ships in this range)
  • Heavy frigates 50-60 guns (we only have trincomalee and constitution in this range)
  • 3rd rates 70-80 guns (we only have 1.5 ships in this range)

All other gun counts will not be considered

Nation preference

  • Dutch
  • Portuguese
  • Venetian

Other great models will also be allowed but we would prefer underrepresented nations. 

There are so many 5th rates, why is this class even mentioned ? 1st rates, 2nd rates, 3rd rates is what we should have an increase in variety.

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9 minutes ago, Jean Pual Vilvenue said:

There are so many 5th rates, why is this class even mentioned ? 1st rates, 2nd rates, 3rd rates is what we should have an increase in variety.

Ships carrying 32-36 guns are needed to fill in the gap between La Renommée et La Belle Poule.

Moreover, 6th Rates and 5th Rates are principal ships for newcomers, casual gamers and, I guess, most of the potential NA players. Shouldn't Sols remain rare ?

Besides, I'd say that in game there aren't enough three-masted "small" ships carrying between 20 and 36 guns (3 right now : USS Rattlesnake, HMS Cerberus and La Renommée, right ?).

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28 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Ships carrying 32-36 guns are needed to fill in the gap between La Renommée et La Belle Poule.

Moreover, 6th Rates and 5th Rates are principal ships for newcomers, casual gamers and, I guess, most of the potential NA players. Shouldn't Sols remain rare ?

Besides, I'd say that in game there aren't enough three-masted "small" ships carrying between 20 and 36 guns (3 right now : USS Rattlesnake, HMS Cerberus and La Renommée, right ?).

Im all for it. But honestly, we need mroe ships in general.

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1 hour ago, Jean Pual Vilvenue said:

There are so many 5th rates, why is this class even mentioned ? 1st rates, 2nd rates, 3rd rates is what we should have an increase in variety.

2nd 3rd and 4th are by far the most lacking categories right now. We could really do with a couple of larger 2nd rates and if it was me deciding I would go for the famous large 2nds from Britain as they played such an important part of the British battle fleet, the two I would personally go for most would be the 98 gun Neptune class and the 90 gun Barfleur class ships, the dutch De Ruyter class would also sit nicely here. When we talking about 3rd rates we really should see an offering from the Téméraire class, and probably a Montañés too, This is also a good place to throw in an offering from Portugal, perhaps as Bungee suggested on the first post of this page the Rainho de portugal. Moving onto 4th rates, this is potentially the most versatile class, while 3rds are generally the backbone of fleets the 2nd rate Naval powers offered some fantastic 4th rates, this would be a lovely place to put in some love for the 2nd rate naval powers, The Dutch, Venetians, Portuguese, Danes Swedes and perhaps even the Ottomans. Although saying this the recent addition of Wasa for the Swedes, and the supposedly under development Christian VII for the Danes somewhat sorts them out a little. This leaves Venice, The Dutch and the Portuguese, again I'm unsure on what the best possible option is for the Portuguese, however I would most love to see Delft (1783) for the Dutch and Fama (1784) for the Venetians added here.

What I really don't want to see for now is more smaller frigates, which is comparatively well stocked and balanced, 6th and 5th being the currently best offering the game has in a lot of ways considering the balance and options in those rosters, the other thing I really don't want to see is the addition of more US ships, because this game is slowly becoming too much of a homage to the US Navy, especially with the Prince de Neufchatel just in its final stages of development.

neptune.JPG

Barfleur
large.jpg

De ruyter

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Téméraire

1920px-Achille_mp3h9307.jpg

FIg7vW9.jpg

Delft

I80KmBO.jpg

Fama
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hTXDb2G.jpg

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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For the Dutch they used merely 2nd, 3rd and 4th rate as there main SoL since the nature of the coastline. And I need to mention that the Dutch also have beside the normal warships also some merchantman had as many guns as a normal 3rd rate, these ships were mainly used for the WIC and VOC since they had different kind of intrest, but not uncommon that they would have seen battle. (apart from the pirate-refits). I know that the Wreker-class (80 guns later 90) and the Prins Maurits-class? (74 guns) of ships had a 36, 30 and 12 after refit 36, 30 ,12/36 and 36, 24, 12 Dutch pdr had were to the Admiraal de Ruyter (Wreker-class), De Vrijheid and 7 Provinciën (Prins Maurits-Class?). In British pound it mean that they would have a 39,5, 33, 13/39,5 and 39,5, 26,5 and 13 Pdr had respectively.

For the 74 gunners  they would have 28*36pdr , 28*24 pdr , 18*12 pdr, it means they would have a broadside weight with Dutch pound in 948 pdr whilst the current bellona has 865 and the St Pavel 1038 if we calculate that to Brit pdr she has a pdr of 1041. There for I would say the Dutch ships would be a nice filler to bridge the gap between certain rates as a heavy ship rate.

And for the Wreker-class ships I will do in two stages since the refit, for the pre-refit the ships have 30*36 pdr, 30*30 pdr, 20*12 pdr, that would mean they would have a broadside weight of 1110 Dutch pdr whilst the current St Pavel and Bucentaure have 1038 and 1200 british pdr broadside weight, but if we take the conversion into account that would mean they would a heavier broadside weigth of 30*39,5, 30*33 and 20*13 pdr taking that into account, she would then have a broadside weigth of 1218 british pdr. 

And now that is done let's go to the refitted Wreker-class of ships with 90 guns, those had a 30*36, 30*30, 20*12 pdr and 10*36 carronades, so in Dutch pound we would have a broadside weight of 1290, for comparison the Victory and the L'Ocean have 1295 and 1365 british pdr broadside weight, but now let's convert we have suddenly 1415 british pdr broadside weight. 

So as a summary the Dutch might not have had there primetime during this period nor we have really famous ships for that matter, but that does not take away that the ships we used were under gunned or had bad performance, by not owning a 1st rate. They were more than capable to match up any other major sea power at the time ship wise if not they had a heavier broadside weight than same class or higher ships. 

For the conversion rate I use the Amsterdam pound with 494,04, for conversion sake I used 1.098 for simplicity. The British broadside weight might be a bit off by a margin of 20/30 pdr but that is more to do with what source u use on Dutch pound, for this most commonly is used the Amsterdam pound

And a question for @admin when do we know when a ship/selection of ships have been chosen?

@Fluffy Fishy the Tirare guns were a nice read, I got 2 questions, 1 were these guns breach or muzzel loaded and 2 would u dare to say thes guns are the first truely rifled and precise (for the time) guns to be ever used, by any significant power. 

 

Edited by pietjenoob
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On 02/09/2017 at 1:31 PM, Intrepido said:

No more british or us ships please. We have enough.

While I think the temerarie class from the french could be a really good addition, the gap should be filled with ships from underepresented nations. France have lots of ships in the game and 2 new ones are coming soon (Hermione and xebec).

In my view, Venice has little to do in NA. No colonies and I doubt any warship from them sailed so far away from the mediterranean. 

 

I guess now ships are made for OW NA and NA Legends, so the argument about the colonies in the Caribbean Sea doesn't stand anymore (if it ever...).

IMHO ship selection is not a matter of nationality but of... ships. I'm sure there are always some nice US and British ships out there we need. All nationalities with nice ships and, in particular, available plans deserve to be in game. Plan availability is the key point. 

Still waiting for a greek frigate btw. And a 20/24-gun French (3-masted) corvette. And more light frigates (one of the purposes of this thread). And... ;)

Edited by LeBoiteux
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@pietjenoob

No it's not the first truly rifled cannon, crude rifling was introduced to Venice from southern Germany in the 1520s and a purpose built drilling room for rifling guns was included in the renovations of the late 1530s. From here on they experimented with various types of rifling over the next few decades with some fantasticly modern looking examples of both polygonal and groove rifling dating well back into the early 17th century and was one of the reasons Venetian cannons had significant range advantages even over 18th century British guns. The Tirar Bombe was a muzzle loaded design, however the invention of breech loading artillery was something else Venice takes claim over thanks to the design being formulated in brescia in the 1570s.

@Intrepido

Venetian ships certainly sailed to the Caribbean, they traded in luxury goods like glass and fine cloth, I'm not aware of any warships specifically travelling to the new world, however there are numerous times Venetian warships would accompany voyages from Venice to the red sea, even late Venice was the main trade power in the eastern Mediterranean and Red sea

@LeBoiteux

Damn you beat me to it, don't steal speranza from me as well :D. Really nice post though thanks for sharing I'd happily help should you want to make another one

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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On 30/08/2017 at 0:45 PM, admin said:

Requirements in broadside guns

  • Light frigates 32-36 guns (we have no ships in this range)

@admin The French Hermione is described by sources as a 32-gun frigate (26 x 12-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr) :

NA has implemented her in the Testbed with 42 guns (26 x 12-pdr + 16 x 6-pdr), if I ain't mistaken.

Why ? Is it a matter of game design, to have all the Light frigates (32-36 guns) exclusively carrying 9-pdr guns ?

Does it mean that the Light Frigates that'll be selected in this thread will have to carry 9-pdr ?

Btw the Spanish Diana (1792) is also a 32-gun frigate with 12-pdr. Will she be implemented with 32 guns or more, or not ?

________________________________________

Diana was one of the six Mahonesas-class 12-pounder frigates built at the Mahón shipyard in Minorca. Her designer Julián Martín de Retamosa, Ingeniero General of the Armada, perfected the English and French construction techniques that had influenced the Spanish shipbuilding during the 18th century. Diana participated in the evacuation of the Spanish forces at the Siege of Roses during the French Revolutionary Wars. She was the fastest one of her class and was reputed one of the best frigates built by the Spanish Royal Navy.  Pictures / 3-Decks

zJaD5Hq.jpg

Edited by LeBoiteux
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82j8toM.jpg

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he Admiraal de Ruyter was a Dutch 80-gun ship-of-the-line, part of the Wreker Class (translation: Avenger).

7 ships would be build according to Pieter Glavimans' design which was approved by the admiralty in 1795. Supervising the build of the first two vessels, the class' leadship "Wreker" left the dockyard in 1798.

Including "Chatham" and "Admiral Zoutman" the first order of the wreker class' vessels was finished in 1800.

Impressed by the ships' overall performance another batch of four new vessels were approved by the admiralty.

 

In 1806 "Admiraal de Ruyter" left the dockyard.

 

-Wreker   1798 (Amsterdam)

-Chatham   1799 (Rotterdam)

-Admiraal Zoutman   1800 (Amsterdam)

-Admiraal de Ruyter   1806 (Rotterdam)

-De Leeuw   1806 (Amsterdam)

-Admiraal de Ruyter   1808 (Amsterdam)

-Admiraal Evertsen   1808 (Amsterdam)

 

The measurement of the class (amsterdamse voet):

195 ft x 51 ft x 22 ft

 

In meters:

55.2 x 14.4 x 6.2

Originally the Class was destined to carry 80-gun (pounds are in dutch):

Lower gun deck: 36-pounders

Upper gun deck: 30-pounders

FC&QD: 12-pounders

 

perhaps 3 ships from all the 3 nations Dutch...... Portuguese and Venetian would be awesome 

Edited by Thonys
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I humbly submit Thomas Slade's excellent Niger of 1759, one of the finest '32s built in the 12pdr era. A beautiful ship renowned for her sailing qualities. From her model, I think she sports 36 guns in total when including the gunports on the weather deck battery. Though if added into the game she would represent yet another British vessel, Slade's 32-gun ships are quite historically significant as they marked an essential step forward in the development of British frigates and, in my humble opinion, were a part of British victory at sea in the Seven Year's War. I think it's important to add more Dutch ships too, but I think Niger deserves a spot there with this in mind.

Niger also would serve as an excellent light frigate. She was historically known for her excellent sailing qualities and the ships of her class were praised extensively by her captains (She gets a lot of attention from "The Frigate: A History in Ship Models" by R. Gardiner), her good speed, maneuverability and sailing qualities could be perfect for a light frigate role.

Plus, the model looks stunning! If she were added into the game, I hope the beauty represented in the model would be translated onto it. The green and gold furnishings across the length of the ship are really quite beautiful.

4MI0AGv.jpg?1Xa8tsIT.jpg?1

Some general dimensions, courtesy of our lord and savior Wikipedia:

Tons burthen: 679 67/94 (as designed)
Length: 125 ft (38 m)
Beam: 35 ft 2 in (11 m)
Depth of hold: 12 ft (4 m)
Sail plan: Full-rigged ship
Complement: 220
Armament:
  • 32 guns comprising:
  • Upperdeck: 26 × 12-pounder guns
  • Quarterdeck: 4 × 6-pounder guns
  • Forecastle: 2 × 6-pounder guns

 

 

 

Edited by _Masterviolin
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That´s the model of the model of the Winchelsea, though. And if I could choose another frigate by Slade (we already have the Coventry-class Cerberus), I´d pick the Southampton.

A ridiculous long active service career with a lot of prizes, had the british king onboard twice and captured a 44-gun frigate shortly before she sank in 1812.

But I don´t think another british ship is going to happen anytime soon :P

 

 

My suggestion, the danish Friderichsværn :

 

36 guns, 1784

 

  Hide contents

 

8MpXqZh.jpg?1

 

 

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Dimensions:

 

Length:                                                          127' (danish)        / 130' 10'' (imperial)

Breadth:                                                          36' (danish)        /   37' 1''    (imperial)

Depth in Hold:                                                 17' 2'' (danish)    /   17' 8''    (imperial)

Draught Foreward                                                                          14' 2''    (imperial)

Draught Aft                                                                                     15' 2''    (imperial)

 

Height of middle gunport above the water                                       6' 2'' (imperial)

 

L/B Ratio              3,53

 

Armament:

 

26* danish 12-pounders

10* danish 4-pounders (later replaced by 12-pounder carronades)

 

Designed by H. Gerner, probably Denmark's most eminent shipwright in the 18th century, Friderichsværn was one of seven ships of the Bornholm-class. Launched 1784 and captured by HMS Comus before the 2nd Battle of Copenhagen. Sold 1814.

 

Other ships in class:

Bornholm       (1774, only 24 12-pounder on the upper deck)

Kiel                (1775)

Moen             (1777)

St. Thomas    (1779)

Cronborg        (1781)

Det Store Belt (1782)

 

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4 hours ago, Malachi said:

But I don´t think another british ship is going to happen anytime soon :P

I don't either which kind of frustrates me mainly because I think the large british 2nd rates need a bit of love, other than that the British Americans and French are pretty well covered, although the French desperately need a 74. Maybe once we have a bit more of a diverse line up we can come back to some of Slade's era defining designs.

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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On 9/4/2017 at 2:21 PM, Fluffy Fishy said:

I don't either which kind of frustrates me mainly because I think the large british 2nd rates need a bit of love, other than that the British Americans and French are pretty well covered, although the French desperately need a 74. Maybe once we have a bit more of a diverse line up we can come back to some of Slade's era defining designs.

A french 74 would be nice, but I´d actually prefer one of Ollivier´s designs over those of Sané. Like Le Monarque of 1747:

 

 

Speaking of Ollivier, we abso-********-lutely need his Le Fleuron in-game :P

Edited by Malachi
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