Beginners experience

[Ysaline]

Hi

 

I have started to play since yesterday  and  i found the game extremely frustrating. 

There is couple of options how to level up but it is enormous grind. Didnt expect that from a sail game but it feels like a typical Korean MMO.

I ask for help on the chat and i got tips but here are my thoughts on them.

 

1st chase down traders:

Ye that dose kinda work but it is boring as hell, they just run away and it takes  like half an hour to catch up with them, then taking out the sails and everything, it feels like work, like a hard labor. It is not fun, not enjoyable by any way.

 

2nd do missions:

Ye sure sounds pretty easy right? WRONG w/e mission i try, i always end up against  3 enemy ships which is pretty difficult to sink one be4 i get sinked my self. Or i get Snow as an enemy, now how  i suppose to kill that in a Yacht?

 

Normally the first few levels in any MMO are easy to get but here it feels like a lot of pain, i can imagine it gets pretty easy when you actually rank up which bring me to.....

There should be some general XP gain from every mission or battle or whatever, some amount for participating in those events, to avoid the exploitation, it should be based on some low dmg threshold. You did something in this mission and even if you didnt do much, here you get something for your troubles.

Having XP determent only by DMG is not a good model.

[AKPyrate]

You can also track down other small vessels and attack them, or join in a larger battle and do a little damage while using the yacht's superb sailing characteristics to stay out of their broadside's arc of fire.  Also, for the traders, use the time hammering away at their sails to work on your aim.  It's quite satisfying to bring down a mast, and the ability to aim well will aid you greatly in the future.

[Snoopy]

I think these are valid points, staying out of somebody's firing arc or surviving against three AI opponents is simply too much to ask for a beginner, a few training wheels (dumbed down bots for lower ranks, starter missions to explain the game) would be nice.

 

That said, it's an alpha and it will get easier as you rank up, both because bigger ships are more stable and make gunnery easier and because you get more experience in the game and can start exploiting weaknesses of your opponents.

[jodgi]

Have you checked out the guides section of this forum? There are text, pictures and YouTube vids there to nudge you in the right direction.

[Chustler]

There have been many reports from new people along these lines, and I hope that things can be made easier for beginners soon. Right now everything is balanced against experienced players, and that makes it hard for new people.

First impressions are very important and there are ways to ease new people in without ruining the experience for the experienced guys.

We will have to see what Admin says about their plans for this issue.

[admin]

First impressions are very important and there are ways to ease new people in without ruining the experience for the experienced guys.

 

 

The question here is where do we stop lowering the plank. There will always be people who consider the game hard. 

I spent my first days in Counter Strike viewing the game through the death camera. Making it too easy will lose its appeal and will make this game just like all other. 

[admin]

 

 

1st chase down traders:

Ye that dose kinda work but it is boring as hell, they just run away and it takes  like half an hour to catch up with them, then taking out the sails and everything, it feels like work, like a hard labor. It is not fun, not enjoyable by any way.

 

2nd do missions:

Ye sure sounds pretty easy right? WRONG w/e mission i try, i always end up against  3 enemy ships which is pretty difficult to sink one be4 i get sinked my self. Or i get Snow as an enemy, now how  i suppose to kill that in a Yacht?

 

 

Beginner experience is extremely important to us. We are watching this and will adjust if everyone hates it

 

regarding your comments

 

1. Traders are not worth it from the getting ranks perspective. Their BR (10) is too low to provide any meaningful victory XP. Traders act as a tutorial on how to properly tag enemies on the Open world teaching players to disable rigging and sails and intercept at proper angles. They also teach boarding basics and provide good income if you are able to capture their cargo. Suggestion: For combat experience it is much better to attack combat vessels or traders with escorts - they don't run and come right to you. 

 

2. Admiralty does not accurately know what specific enemy you will encounter - you could face stronger forces. But you can always run and cancel the mission if it is too hard. No need to struggle fighting the snow in a yacht - it is possible to sink a snow in a yacht but you need a lot of experience to do it. Suggestion You should cancel the mission and try another one from another port - or just go hunting on the OW attacking players or NPCs who you think you can sink.

 

3. Orders system is new and is in development and enemy distribution could be not optimal and need tuning. On the Open world you decide who to attack - in missions you might face the superior enemy and its up to you if you want to fight it or not. You have full control. 

[Kaos]

Looking back to when I started this game and we were still in Sea Trials the beginner's experience was much more impressive at least for me. You could instantly see and experience the potential FUN this game could be by joining a pvp battle and it made a good impression and got me hooked fast.

I don't know about others but I never logged in thinking: ''Wow, I can't already wait to farm this 3-pack of bots to get my next rank/ship.'' I didn't even notice the ''grind'' because I was too busy having fun. Since OW the whole rank system has felt like a dull grindwall to climb over to reach to the content of this game that interests me personally most.

Make people see this game like we saw it back in sea trials -
I suggest to at least give people glimpse of the fun pvp battles this game could have, limit it to light pvp like in sea trials and maybe 5-10 battles per account to give them an idea and then lock it if you are afraid they will never return to OW again after this. Everyone will be as clueless as the next person and there will be no old wolves sealclubbing them and hard AI frustrating them.
One of my biggest annoyances since beginning of OW was the required AI grind and still is, not because it's challenging, it is simply not the content I am playing this game for.

2. PvE progression (compared to ST1 where you could avoid all pve, perhaps skirmish or some viable arena progression will be available in future against other players)

3. Lack of practice room

It doesn't mean I hate open world but I feel like new players are missing out on the fun me and many others had back in sea trials that got us more deeply involved with this game.

[Chustler]

The question here is where do we stop lowering the plank. There will always be people who consider the game hard.

I spent my first days in Counter Strike viewing the game through the death camera. Making it too easy will lose its appeal and will make this game just like all other.

Ya I don't think it requires you to lower the plank for the whole. I think a set of missions designed to ease new players through the first rank or 2 would be a huge help. Just imagine you are loging in for the first time. You show up in port. There are some basic tips highlighting what the things on screen mean. Then it directs you to a basic noob mission (maybe without even having to leave port on the first one) that has dumb enemies in it to allow you to experience battle very early on without the AI stomping you and then guide it from there. It would require some effort, but I think it is a massive important issue for getting people in the door.

If they find it hard after that, at least you have given them a chance to get their feet under them.

[jodgi]

Looking back to when I started this game and we were still in Sea Trials the beginner's experience was much more impressive at least for me. You could instantly see and experience the potential FUN this game could be by joining a pvp battle and it made a good impression and got me hooked fast...

So much this and your entire post!

No doubt a lot of players will be immersed in the OW experience but PVP is laying bleeding by the wayside. Whatever this game is, for me, the core is glorious PVP. I desperately want to help encourage PVP in Naval Action.

[Ysaline]

Also noticed some quirky mechanics.

From what  i learn on chat, it suppose to be the gun reaload shock. I kinda do understand it, but it seems to be active way too often and for ridiculously long time.

Lets say if the ship is on fire, or the crew is busy with something urgent then ye sure. Or like if someone shooting with the anti-personnel shots and get a half of a cew dead, okay sure. But having a ball hitting the ship armor and my crew is shocked from that? you kidding... that is just annoying. Even if it kills like few people, dose it really needs to put you out of action for so long?

Most of the aiming is based on RNG, understandably - but the "shocks" like that shouldnt happen on random unless you deliberately cause them. ^

Edited December 23, 2015 by Ysaline

[Petrov]

Looking back to when I started this game and we were still in Sea Trials the beginner's experience was much more impressive at least for me. You could instantly see and experience the potential FUN this game could be by joining a pvp battle and it made a good impression and got me hooked fast.

I don't know about others but I never logged in thinking: ''Wow, I can't already wait to farm this 3-pack of bots to get my next rank/ship.'' I didn't even notice the ''grind'' because I was too busy having fun. Since OW the whole rank system has felt like a dull grindwall to climb over to reach to the content of this game that interests me personally most.

Make people see this game like we saw it back in sea trials...

So true.  I really hope to see this again in the current OW.  Large scale PVP battles.  It's where the game really shines.  

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Also noticed some quirky mechanics.

From what  i learn on chat, it suppose to be the gun reaload shock. I kinda do understand it, but it seems to be active way too often and for ridiculously long time.

Lets say if the ship is on fire, or the crew is busy with something urgent then ye sure. Or like if someone shooting with the anti-personnel shots and get a half of a cew dead, okay sure. But having a ball hitting the ship armor and my crew is shocked from that? you kidding... that is just annoying. Even if it kills like few people, dose it really needs to put you out of action for so long?

Most of the aiming is based on RNG, understandably - but the "shocks" like that shouldnt happen on random unless you deliberately cause them. ^

 

This replicates real world conditions on a ship getting hit with a massive broadside.  In the lower ranks, it can feel like forever, especially due to the faster reload rates.  Even in a Brig you can sometimes carefully exploit it with carronades if you're timing your shots right and not using double.

 

Bear in mind, balls don't just hit ship armor and bounce off harmlessly.  In general, at close quarters those balls are passing clean through the bulwarks, or hitting them hard enough to flex the wood, throwing splinters and debris at very high velocities throughout the crew's area, creating gaping bloody wounds, knocking people senseless, and causing other casualties.  Dragging those disabled crew off the guns and out of the way takes a few moments.  For a decent visual of this, if you haven't seen it, watch the opening battle in the movie Master and Commander.  

 

Now, there may very well need to be a reduced amount of time of shock based on the total amount of damage done.  This means that two Cutters duking it out might only cause a 10 second reload shock, whereas two Bellonas might cause a full 30 second delay.  That's what we need to test and give feedback on.  

[Ned Loe]

Hire escort and order them to chase enemy. Works every time. It will help you lvl up and feel more in control. 

[Nathaniel]

The question here is where do we stop lowering the plank. There will always be people who consider the game hard. 

I spent my first days in Counter Strike viewing the game through the death camera. Making it too easy will lose its appeal and will make this game just like all other. 

While i fully agree with the general sentiment it should be possible to present the game as challenging while not scaring the player off completely.

 

1. It will hurt nobody if you introduce a new starter rank that will require only a few fights won with easy to fight missions just a few yards away from the capital port that will also include a lame cutter or so. There is a ton of concepts (not to speak of controls) for people to learn even before their experience can be fairly characterized as playing. Even if you introduce extensive ingame explanations they will still need practice.

2. Beyond that, we have a problem with difficulty, that is not related to "dumbing down". On a yacht, three privateers are deadly and most two ship combinations are deadly. On a constitution, i easily handle three frigates, a third rate + belle poule or a single pavel. That means, event missions now usually get easier with every ship you get. They get significantly easier once you get a brig, and one big step easier once you get a surprise. They become more forgiving, not less. Certainly, the curve should be reversed. No need to dumb the starter experience down completely, just make missions on yacht as diffult, as missions on a connie, not harder.

3. Even hardcore games need success experiences. In games like Rust or H1Z1 (comparable to DayZ) i was run over by several players multiple times on my first evening without a chance, that's true, but i was also able to kill a bear with an ad hoc bow and build a small shelter. Even if this shelter would be destroyed overnight, without this success experiences i probably wouldn't continue playing. Considering that with a lot of new players on EA they will already be subject to a large PvP threat i generally think it could be a bit over the top to additionally let them struggle with very hard missions on the PvE front.

[Captiva]

The simplest remedy to my mind, is to have a sea trials style - arena mode area that would be called something along the lines of -  "Naval Action Training Academy".

 

The new player can play here as long as he wants or as long as he needs, in order to learn battle skills and sailing skills. He should have the ability to sail two types of ships, a fore and aft rigged and a square rigged to learn the basics of sailing and firing.

 

This seems like such a no-brainer in helping the new player learn the basics. Maybe it's in the works from the developers and just not implemented into the game at this time. 

[Prater]

The question here is where do we stop lowering the plank. There will always be people who consider the game hard. 

I spent my first days in Counter Strike viewing the game through the death camera. Making it too easy will lose its appeal and will make this game just like all other. 

 

 

Here are my ideas on this subject:

 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7951-small-vessels-and-the-new-player-experience/?p=137916

 

 

 

The idea:

We need more small ships to help the new player experience.  These ships are a lot smaller than everything else, and so hopefully several could be made without taking up a bunch of time.

 

Feel free to add more ship plans

 

My idea is this.  We get more small vessels:  luggers, ketches, hoys, etc, 2-6 or so guns.  The new player starts out as a Midshipman captaining one of these (maybe the hoy).  This is in a tutorial screen where the player is taught the controls and basics of how to sail the ship.  After this, the player, who is on coastal patrol, gets attacked by pirates or comes across a smuggler, who is also in one of these small ships, and the player is then taught the basics of combat and boarding.  The player wins, gets sent to Port, and the tutorial explains the port screen.  The admiralty then gives the new player an 8 gun ketch or lugger.  The new player now has a larger and better ship, a step up in the world and a sense of progress.  From there the admiralty charges the new player to leave port and hunt down smugglers that are in the area around the starting location in large numbers (1-2 ships per fleet at max).  The player hunts these down, gets xp, gold, sends the ships back to port or to the admiralty, and gets money and xp and admiralty points built up.  On promotion to Ensign, the admiralty recommends the player broaden their experience (i.e. buy new ships, hunt larger ships, exploer, etc:  get out in the world, it is a massive sand box).

66ft (Dutch???) Hoy

Dutch hoys were 2 masted (as opposed to British hoys which were usually single-masted).  The British bought 19 66ft 4 gun (3 carronades + 1 24lber) hoys from the Dutch in the 1790s that were involved in some battles.

 

Hayling (1760)

British Single-masted hoy

 

Eclair (1795)

British 3 gun Lugger

 

Le Coureur

8 gun Lugger.

 

Cherokee (1774)

6 Gun Ketch

 

Fly (1752)

8 gun ketch.  Green ink is modifications that were added to make it ship rigged.

 

Shark (1732)

8 gun ketch

['Sharpe]

I'd also like to suggest:

There needs to be an easy way for new players to see that there is a war going on, nations against nations, and that it is player influenced.

This can be accomplished through the map having more information, or a new strategy tab. Players just basically need to "get" that there is a RvR and PvP going on, and know roughly where the front lines are, even if they can't participate immediately.

This need has become clear with the recent influx of new players, who from reading country chat it seems have no idea what the eventual goal of the game is. They're also oblivious to where to go to find PvP, or that it is even happening (real time PvP battle results displayed somewhere for all within a nation to read would be nice).

These are experiential changes designed to hook the new player into the concept that OW is something grander and more strategic than sailing for 20 minutes to fight bots. Just hooking them to this concept as early as possible is important.

[Captiva]

Prater and 'Sharpe are right on it. 1.Some form of in game tutorial explaining the mechanics of sailing and combat, and  2.reasons to sail all classes of ships throughout the life of the game.

 

A tutorial of some form is so obvious that it is simply a must.

 

Reasons to sail all ships of all classes throughout the life of the game is also important if the developers' aim is to increase the numbers all types of ships sailing in game.

 

The events tab is a good start, albeit  pertaining only to combat. Exploratory missions which takes the player to the remote areas of the map are another event that could be added. Simply sail to a far distant port and you get a reward. Deliver goods and you get another type of reward. Hunting smugglers, as Prater suggests is another type of event. And each of these events would require a specific class of ship in order to take on the mission. 

 

These ideas would give the player many diverse ways of earning XP and Gold beyond PVE or PVP, and make it less frustrating for the beginning player to earn them.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Captiva

[CaptainCaveMan]

I have just started playing this game and for the most part am very happy with what has been accomplished so far. I have to agree that at first it has been a bit daunting to get through the first rank and to understand the battles...that being said...I have found some excellent youtube videos to watch that have helped. I have joined with two other players as noobs and we have had a lot of fun overcoming the learning curve but now seem to have a grasp of the basics. I would agree that maybe an entry level PvP/PvE academy be set-up to assist new players...as some new players are looking for a faster rate of play, for my friends and I the expectation...this is the age of sail...so you have time to work through the basics.

[William the Wicked]

I've been playing for a few days now, and agree that the assignments and chasing NPC traders isn't the way to level up.

 

However you can go to the "mission" tab (used to be events until a couple of days ago) and join large and small battles.  Depending on the time of day, you have a pretty decent chance of facing real live opponents.  And if you don't you face an NPC ship exactly the size of yours.  You'll know you're mastering the basics when you destroy the identical NPC ship with ease...took me about 2 or 3 days to master the basics.

 

You get a lot more gold and xp from that than from the assignments you get from the Admiralty.

 

And you learn a lot when you get some experienced PVP folks through the mission.

 

Check out RAMJB's videos, among others, on youtube for the basics of sailing.

[Scorpio Shirica]

Since this is alpha, and I very much enjoy the game as is, then maybe it's not too pressing of an issue. I'd hate for the game to be "dumbed" down or anything, but definitely relate to the difficulty at getting started. For now, I think the community guide videos are pretty great. 

 

Maybe once the developers are looking at the game as more of a release candidate, introduce a tutorial from the main menu where players can be introduced to their first ship and taken through a few scripted AI battles? Maybe get a Steam Achievement or small upgrade on their starter ship for completing said tutorial?

 

Just brainstorming here. 

[Revenant]

Ahoy Ladies and Gentlemen!

Here comes my first post ever.

 

Playing the game since last night - and loving it, Aye!

 

First impressions:

 

Game is split in three parts.

1. Harbour game
2. Combat instances
3. Time accelerated sailing

Part one is fun, maybe a little sketchy right now but OK.

Part two is the strong point of Naval Action, heavily instanced, right, I am not sure how this turns out over (long) time. But fun and entertaining.

The last part is the weakest, if you ask me. I expected proper sailing - including a live environment, a proper sort of navigation, dynamic weather; I would love to do all this in real time if  I'm in the mood.

Goofing around in a wobbling toy Yacht kills immersion, IMO, and all the beautiful environment you created so far didn't comes to bear properly.

I understand you plan to introduce exploration at some point, here is hope, this will add a lot of what's missing there right now. 

 

 

What I would love to see:

 

• Possibility to play in real time
• Possibility to play in first person mode - completely
• Possibility to play to play from Commander position(see above) walk the deck
• As little "cheats" as possible; skill is trump

To understand where I am coming from, I'm a avid PC gamer since 1991, mostly vehicle combat sims, at least 10 year MP experience. I love roleplay and Iron man modes

Combat, gunnery and positioning is easy, with a lot cool new stuff ahead to learn and master, Naval Action is fun and wonderful game.

 

 

 

Now, Schnaps, Whisky, Champaign for all of you!

Including them wretchted Engländers:

I'll stalk your ships of the line and swear I'll be at least a pain in the axxx, untill you sink my little Yacht

 

S!

 

Le Revenant

[Prater]

So, you want like 96+ hours of real life sailing to go between some of the close islands in the Leeward Islands?  Where is the fun in that?

[Macjimm]

I think that most of us hope that this is not the typical MMO but a game that will appeal to players who are appreciate a more advanced form of gameplay. That said, clearly delineating a less challenging area of the map could be very helpful to new players. The biggest hint would be to encourage newbies to from up in a fleet with other players until they have learned the initial skills needed.

What I would love to see:

• Possibility to play in real time
• Possibility to play in first person mode - completely
• Possibility to play to play from Commander position(see above) walk the deck
• As little "cheats" as possible; skill is trump

There are other who would love to see real time, but apparently the map cannot be one large instance, the game engine can only accommodate a limited number of players simultaneously and still present the shared graphics between them. Also the possibility of real time may not be desirable as most of the player base is not interested in spending huge amounts of time that would be required for long distance travel but still want the large map environment and the ability to move very rapidly and freely around the whole map. The only current viable solution is the speedboat effect. Unless a single player version is developed (which is highly unlikely)

You can emulate real time by sailing at dead slow or slow speed and positioning yourself on the deck. (just try to ignore the speedboats whizzing by) It more difficult to initiate combat at the slow speed because greater speed is required for favorable positioning (weather gauge) at the start of an instance.

It is possible to sort of play in first person by double tapping the home key and with w-d-s-a and z-x moving about the ship to see from the deck. (the limitation is that you are not able to control the ship).

The “cheats” seem to be a compromise because so many players want to fight and they want to fight often with a very short delay between instances. Try to view the “cheats” as helpful compromises. While they may impact your immersion they allow players to compensate for the lack of RL senses we have in a game. The “cheats” may allow lots of fights often. Without the cheats many players may feel like they are in a simulator.

I would like to see all of the “cheats” optional, client side. It would be great to be able to turn off the ingame text (port names, conflict information, instance swords).

Non-combat missions would be an improvement but currently the main focus is on combat. Hopefully the addition of exploration and weather damage instances are on the horizon.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Macjimm