>>> Beta 1.06 Feedback<<< (FINAL UPDATE 6th Release Candidate)

[Skeksis]

It's an odd situation, 'ally battles after peace'.

Made peace with Germany but I have an alliance with France but they are warring with Germany, so technically speaking, I should still shoot them!, right? maybe not, I wanted peace too.

Screenshot is straight after agreeing to peace. Germany (game) didn't or doesn’t have enough time to withdraw. They should, I just made fools of them, also screenshot shows they still want to poke the bear.

1) Maybe immediately after peace agreements, there should be options to break any/all alliances to give total peace with capitulating nation a chance.

2) Or for a month or two, or a given time, the ‘Delay’ and ‘Withdraw’ battle options should be automatically enabled (I checked those battles, they were all greyed out) and given a high chance or automatically given a successful result. To ensure peace. If option taken then some negative relations towards waring ally.

Anyway, in whatever case there should be an avenue for total peace, shouldn't have wait for the French ally (game) to decide my destiny.  

Edited June 8, 2022 by Skeksis

[jtjohn1]

WIth regards to Naval Rifles. Yes designers knew the benefit of longer barrels.  They also knew the downside to them.  

It's  HARD to build a naval rifle.  The reason the British excellent 15" 42 calibers (For those of you not quite as geeky as I am,  when talking about naval rifles you have the first number which is the diameter of the barrel followed by the length which is given in calibers and is figured out by dividing the desired length by the diameter hence the 15"/42 has a diameter of  15" and a length of 52.5 feet) they wanted it to be longer but that was about the limit of the technology they used to create these guns (They used wire wrapping) so that's one reason longer guns weren't made.  The technology didn't exist or they were concerned about them blowing up.

Another reason is barrel wear.  The higher the muzzle velocity the more barrel wear the fewer shots before you have to replace the barrel or get refurbished.  Remember these are HARD to make and hard = EXPENSIVE so if you only got 100 rounds between barrel replacements that adds a significant cost to the politicians.  

Finally the higher muzzle velocity means a flatter trajectory.  Flatter trajectory = More likely to hit the belt armor vs deck (Belt is LOTS thicker).  The US settled on the perfect gun caliber as 16"/50 of the Iowa's after testing a 16"56 gun they decided the tradeoffs just weren't worth it in the likely ranges that battle would be fought.

 

We don't have worry about this that much in the game.  Hence my first UK superdreadnoughts (Built in 1907) has 13.5" (I am a geek that's a traditional UK gun size) with barrels that are WAAAAYYYYY longer than anything the UK could have built (I am not sure what the math is but the historical ones were 13.5" 45 calibers (Or a length a little bit more than 50 feet)

 

 

[AdmiralKirk]

Maybe the game could incorporate technological limitations on barrel modifications by way of the tech tree? Currently you start with access to the full +0.9" caliber and +/– 20% length for all your primary weapons, but I could see those modifications being a researchable upgrade within a given caliber, or requiring a certain weapon grade.

[Sturmalex]

Why exactly does the UK AI get +420.1% accuracy for "Range Found" when I only get 41%? as German Empire?

 

Game is currently broken beyond playability. My ships never manage to hit anything. BBs are the worst offender.

Look at this screen, the 280mm guns have a accuracy of 30% on the Hull (its just down to 3.1% due to the damage taken). Look at the damage dealt and damage taken. The other 3 BBs didnt make much more damage either. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Sturmalex

[Gibbel]

I've got an issue to report with the campaign. The game doesn't seem to recognize that I'm at war with France. The history of the campaign is that I fought a war with Britain, won and made peace. 2 years later I was at war with the British again due to an event. A few month later I went to war against the French as the consequence of another event. The interface on the right side shows this but the interface on the left side doesn't. I tried to force the French to battle by sailing into their water but nothing happens.

PS: I've also got the bug where I game gets stuck on "Building New Ships" that Iuvenalis reported.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Gibbel

[Makko]

3 hours ago, TiagoStein said:

Super long barrels were not made because  building a long barrel of a high caliber super high pressure gun is almost a miracle in metallurgic work 

 

Weapon COSTS  shoudl skyrocket when you  try to make longer barrels.

I think it should just be physically impossible to the extent it is currently

 

The game should be balanced so that you end up with ship designs that are effective and also resemble real life effective ship designs. Sure they might be bigger due to no treaties and players be able to dump  money into their pet projects, but if real life state of the art warships of the period are just garbage in what is supposed to be the equivalent time period, something is wrong. 

 

  

1 hour ago, AdmiralKirk said:

Maybe the game could incorporate technological limitations on barrel modifications by way of the tech tree? Currently you start with access to the full +0.9" caliber and +/– 20% length for all your primary weapons, but I could see those modifications being a researchable upgrade within a given caliber, or requiring a certain weapon grade.

This would certainly help some, but right now these crazy long guns are just too strong, gating them behind tech only delays the problem. I guess it would be helpful to have a real life engineer who has studied naval guns weigh in on the limiting factors and why this "make it 90 calibers long" strategy didn't work IRL.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Makko

[Iuvenalis]

Germany ceased to exist? What is this

 

[o Barão]

20 minutes ago, jtjohn1 said:

they wanted it to be longer but that was about the limit of the technology they used to create these guns (They used wire wrapping) so that's one reason longer guns weren't made.  The technology didn't exist or they were concerned about them blowing up.

Another reason is barrel wear.  The higher the muzzle velocity the more barrel wear the fewer shots before you have to replace the barrel or get refurbished.  Remember these are HARD to make and hard = EXPENSIVE so if you only got 100 rounds between barrel replacements that adds a significant cost to the politicians. 

You can mention the barrel wear. Correct. The cost, the weight, the time to reload, the complexity to build them. The physical limitations to build a barrel to support its own weight and also the propellant pressure. The deck space needed, or the changes to the ship stability. Etc, etc... Many factors to consider.

 

Still, this could be applied to small guns, but still we never saw any navy at the time build secondaries with insane long barrels. Why is that? Would not be interesting to have 4 inch gun with 9x accuracy multiplier? The all big gun design that come with HMS Dreadnought would probably never existed. No need. Just place a ship with many small guns but with insane long barrels and burn the enemy at insane ranges with great accuracy. Cheaper to build and more effective. Admiral Jackie Fisher would love this, but still we never saw any navy tried to do this. Maybe is because this 9x accuracy multiplier is nonsense?

 

One example to consider. Let's imagine we are at Jutland, and are two dreadnoughts dueling at long ranges in the battle line. One dreadnought have insane long barrels with 30 seconds shell flight time to reach the target. The other one have short barrels, with 60 seconds shell flight time to reach the target. Is the long barrel dreadnought more accurate? Why? If both need to have the target solution to hit the target, what difference will it make if one salvo takes 30 seconds and the other 60 seconds. The fire control in both ships will need to take into consideration their guns ballistic to reach a firing solution. So, there is no difference?

 

Longer barrels should give more range, more penetration and a higher muzzle velocity. This is all normal. I also agree that it should make it harder for a ship to avoid a coming salvo since the time travel is shorter, which does not give enough time to change course to avoid the coming shells. Which can be translated to a better accuracy. But to get a 9x accuracy multiplier just because one ship is using a long barrel instead a short one? Is the longer barrel coming with satellite data, laser sight range finder, a computer from the 21st century with an AI software to do all the calculations in a fraction of a second??? This is the part that not only makes it very hard to understand, is also ruining the game balance again. When we finally see some changes to make the AI better in battle, we now have a new mechanic to get easy wins. Just go big and keep your distance.

[Littorio]

Trying out 1.06 finally and already can't get into the game far without finding a large bug. Right now the English/Italian 1890 TB design with the high bow is impossible to build with a gun on the front without 100% fore weight offset. You can build it to add 100% aft offset, add a bow gun, and suddenly it's 100% the opposite direction? In previous versions a bow gun was possible on this hull without such a huge shift. Is it because it is high up? Is this effect intended?

[Schmitty21]

52 minutes ago, Littorio said:

Trying out 1.06 finally and already can't get into the game far without finding a large bug. Right now the English/Italian 1890 TB design with the high bow is impossible to build with a gun on the front without 100% fore weight offset. You can build it to add 100% aft offset, add a bow gun, and suddenly it's 100% the opposite direction? In previous versions a bow gun was possible on this hull without such a huge shift. Is it because it is high up? Is this effect intended?

Its the armored belt. Move the rear gun back further and it will balance it out. You have to move it very far back.

[Schmitty21]

Current version has worked best so far. I am noticing a few bugs that are making campaign play difficult.

First is the well known VP bug. In solo wars it seemed to not be an issue but now against France and England simultaneously every battle awards them points no matter who actually won.

Additionally there seems to be something going on with the alliance system. Seems to not let you make peace and sometimes be allied with the wrong nation.

Finally, while looking at the map I noticed that mousing over the ports of all other nations showed ridiculous amounts of battleships and every other vessel in each port, despite that the info overlay show those nations are reduced down to only CL's and TB's. I'm talking like 21 BB's in one port alone.

I would also like to suggest one minor UI QOL improvement. On the ship designs screen it would be nice to have a column showing total number of that type in service. Also I still can't delete some old designs even after scrapping all of them, might be related to ships that don't receive refits before being removed from service.

Overall though I'm really enjoying the campaign mode and this is a very big step in the right direction. Looking forward to the bugs getting squashed and seeing campaign more fleshed out.

[Lima]

Along with 203mm, maximized 51mm are also incredibly OP. Here is an example of what ships can do with maximized 203 and 51 mm.

[UnleashtheKraken]

1 hour ago, Littorio said:

Trying out 1.06 finally and already can't get into the game far without finding a large bug. Right now the English/Italian 1890 TB design with the high bow is impossible to build with a gun on the front without 100% fore weight offset. You can build it to add 100% aft offset, add a bow gun, and suddenly it's 100% the opposite direction? In previous versions a bow gun was possible on this hull without such a huge shift. Is it because it is high up? Is this effect intended?

I've been testing this myself and my suspicion thus far is that the weight offset calculation is acting very bizarrely on torpedo boats.

Torpedo single tubes weigh 16 ton, while the 2" gun weighs 2.2 or so, with some adjustments to barrel and bore.  Smoke stacks and other items also affect the weight balance in very weird ways.  I'd say the weight : affect ratio is almost reversed, and that very small changes make fore/aft swing wildly back and forth.

So I have a 275 ton displacement hull.  I place a single 2" in the foreward overlook.  The main tower comes next, as close to the fore gun as can be.  I'm showing 100% foreward displacement.  After that I place two small funnels, getting a hiliarious <50% efficiency doing 29 knts.  I place, as fully aft as possible, 2 side by side single tube launchers.  The balance still shows 100 % foreward.  Now I place, in the small space between stacks and tubes, a single 2" gun, which is aft of the center by length.  The weight is now 100% aft.

If I REALLY fuss around with where things are placed, and remove the foreward gun in that raised position on the bows, I can eventually find a balance that isn't disastrous, but getting even close to fore/aft balance is maddening.  The fact that a single 2.2 ton gun has more effect than 4 16 ton is perfect evidence that weight distribution is bugged on torpedo boats.  At least the basic, starting one.

I have not tested the later torpedo boats, but today I built a 'destroyer I', as Germany, 1910 campaign start, and was easily able to make a balanced ship with multiple guns, 2x3tube launchers, speed, and armored for a DD.  Enough speed to be a real threat on the dash.

1.06 beta needs a lot of tweaking after the gun customization upgrade, but it's very promising, and looks like it's just a matter of getting maths working correctly in this instance.

[ShakenU]

Here's my overall feedback for update 6:

• Tech was too slow before, now it's too fast. Maybe try splitting the difference and see how it likes it.
• Shipyard size: good
• Still no clear definition on when a war is over, or what it takes for another country to offer peace. So far, I've seen multiple times where the country's economy utterly collapses (hits GDP of 0), but still considered at war. Revolutions still seem to do nothing.
• No ability to offer peace to other countries as a player. I know this isn't in the patch notes, but I think it needs to be added before 1.06 goes live.

 

Additionally, one QOL change I would like to see is the ability to multiple-select ships on the fleet page, and do actions on them in bulk, like setting crew by percentage, or scrapping/suspending them.

[Carl_Bar]

First a bug report. Got a save that every time i hit end turn it just freezes and hangs. Can't upload it to the forums however. What should i do with it?

 

 

Regarding the long gun barrels. In the real world fire control technology had a much lower accuracy, (in terms of margin of error), than the guns themselves in virtually all circumstances so as a result it tended to be the primary factor in determining the effective accuracy as it constrained what the upper limit on accuracy was. The game treats the guns as the constraining factor instead. That hugely effects how much the guns contribute to accuracy.

 

That said there where examples of guns and/or mounting designs that introduced severe accuracy penalties beyond that of the fire control because of issues with the rifling or putting the barrels so close the muzzle blast of one disrupted the shell fire by the neighbouring barrel/s.

[Nick Thomadis]

*UPDATE 7 * (8/6/2022)

- Fixed various bugs of campaign that resulted in Alliances to not follow the events, and then creating a buggy situation with no battles and no activity. This is very roughly tested, so please check if the most critical issues are now fixed.
- Improved the campaign AI to assess better its financial situation and not bankrupt by overbuilding ships.
- Province Population (A stat not yet fully working) now has growth according to GDP and affects the crew pool. The crew pool will be following more naturally the years of development and should be sufficient in late years.
- Fixed War reparations not working for the human player. Now you will be able to receive ships and provinces except from money, after winning a war.
- Campaign Research speed reduced slightly as per feedback.
- Further Battle AI and Auto-Targeting improvements.
- Auto-Design logic further improved to create even more effective ships.
- Barrel length now increases the turret's size and costs much more.
- Fixed bug that made ship to freeze when executing reverse and “Avoid Ships” option was disabled.
- Accuracy formula now converts the size of the enemy ships more accurately in targeting signature. As a result, the smaller ships, especially the torpedo boats can survive more realistically at long ranges and become really threatened only when they approach too much the battleships or other powerful ships.
- Further improvements on the new damage model, addressing issues of too durable ships and creating more events of critical high damage in case of full penetrations.

Please restart Steam to Download (Saves had to be reset)

Note: Using Cheat Engines and doing any kind of back up to not use the latest save version, will result in game breaking  even cause the VP bug you report. Please do not report bugs if you know that you edit files yourself,  as it does not help us at all.

[SpardaSon21]

18 hours ago, o Barão said:

Now, about the guns. I can't stress enough the issue with the unrealistic accuracy modifiers. I am no naval gun designer, but if these values are true, then all of us could ask why all navies simple didn't designed guns with crazy long barrels? If it was because of weight issues, then we could ask why we didn't see secondaries with insane long barrels. But we don't see that. The designers of the time were not smart enough to see how good it was to hit targets by simply having a crazy long barrel? Or maybe, they already knew, that increasing the barrel length would not give an improvement to accuracy, enough that could justify the downsides by going that route in the designing process? I prefer to believe, the persons at the time, knew what they are doing for the most part, and I almost 100% sure, that they run several tests, with different barrel lengths to reach the conclusion that it wasn't worth it. But what we have in game is a complete different story...

 

Agreed.  There's a reason the 5"/38 is widely considered to be the best overall secondary of WW2, and it isn't just because it was DP.  The inter-war destroyer leaders the US built used it in SP twin mounts, and I don't think anyone has accused the Porter-class or Somers-class of being poorly armed.  Despite only being 38 calibers in length the US gun lost less than two kilometers in max range compared to the Japanese 12.7cm/50 used on Fubuki and later ships.  In 1944 the British put forth plans to strip out the mixed secondary battery of the Nelsons with six twin 5"/38 guns, which would be monumentally stupid in this game, since who would choose to swap out 6x2 6"/50 guns and six 4.7"/40 guns with only 6x2 5"/38 guns?

2 hours ago, UnleashtheKraken said:

Torpedo single tubes weigh 16 ton, while the 2" gun weighs 2.2 or so, with some adjustments to barrel and bore.  Smoke stacks and other items also affect the weight balance in very weird ways.  I'd say the weight : affect ratio is almost reversed, and that very small changes make fore/aft swing wildly back and forth.

So I have a 275 ton displacement hull.  I place a single 2" in the foreward overlook.  The main tower comes next, as close to the fore gun as can be.  I'm showing 100% foreward displacement.  After that I place two small funnels, getting a hiliarious <50% efficiency doing 29 knts.  I place, as fully aft as possible, 2 side by side single tube launchers.  The balance still shows 100 % foreward.  Now I place, in the small space between stacks and tubes, a single 2" gun, which is aft of the center by length.  The weight is now 100% aft.

If I REALLY fuss around with where things are placed, and remove the foreward gun in that raised position on the bows, I can eventually find a balance that isn't disastrous, but getting even close to fore/aft balance is maddening.  The fact that a single 2.2 ton gun has more effect than 4 16 ton is perfect evidence that weight distribution is bugged on torpedo boats.  At least the basic, starting one.

 

They really need to redo citadel weights for TBs and destroyers, mostly because those ships never had dedicated citadels like larger ships did, possessing splinter protection at best, as far as I am aware

Edited June 8, 2022 by SpardaSon21

[SpecTRe_X]

5 hours ago, Iuvenalis said:

Germany ceased to exist? What is this

 

Unrest got too high and the populace revolted. The country ceasing to be is the current result.

[Carl_Bar]

1 hour ago, SpardaSon21 said:

Agreed.  There's a reason the 5"/38 is widely considered to be the best overall secondary of WW2, and it isn't just because it was DP.  The inter-war destroyer leaders the US built used it in SP twin mounts, and I don't think anyone has accused the Porter-class or Somers-class of being poorly armed.  Despite only being 38 calibers in length the US gun lost less than two kilometers in max range compared to the Japanese 12.7cm/50 used on Fubuki and later ships.  In 1944 the British put forth plans to strip out the mixed secondary battery of the Nelsons with six twin 5"/38 guns, which would be monumentally stupid in this game, since who would choose to swap out 6x2 6"/50 guns and six 4.7"/40 guns with only 6x2 5"/38 guns?

 

Part of the issue is that small claiber doesn't bring anywhere near as big a jump in RoF as happened IRL. Whilst the US 5"/38Cal was a bit extreme for it's calibre as an example the best non-post WW2 6" guns had a rate of fire of around 8rpm, 8 inch topped out at 4rpm, but the US 5"/38Cal had a RoF of 20-24 RPM and most other nations 5" guns could hit 12RPM easily.

 

Part of the issue is that we have a single magnitude effect for the loading system upgrades. In reality semi-automatic and fully automatic systems had a much greater effect on guns of a calibre small enough to load all of the components in one ram cycle. They also had a greater effect on cased ammunition, (you can ram a cased round home much faster without damaging the load), single piece ammunition, (single piece generally meant it was light enough for one man to move in his arms), and guns with semi-automatic or automatic breechblocks, (the breech can open and close much faster so your not waiting around for it).

[Aloeus]

So I'm running into a bug with AH where my naval budget decreases over time despite a positive GDP growth. 

Jan 1903: 

July 1903: 

You can do the math and figure out that the % of GDP I should be getting is not correct (should be 46 mil). I think this has been going on since the start of the campaign (1900). 

 

EDit: And no I haven't messed with saves or anything, never have. 

Edit 2: France's budget seems to work properly. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Aloeus

[Littorio]

5 hours ago, Schmitty21 said:

Its the armored belt. Move the rear gun back further and it will balance it out. You have to move it very far back.

I didn't have a rear gun. I was balancing with torpedoes which weigh far more than a 2" gun. Moving the tower and stack also didn't change this.

5 hours ago, UnleashtheKraken said:

I've been testing this myself and my suspicion thus far is that the weight offset calculation is acting very bizarrely on torpedo boats.

Torpedo single tubes weigh 16 ton, while the 2" gun weighs 2.2 or so, with some adjustments to barrel and bore.  Smoke stacks and other items also affect the weight balance in very weird ways.  I'd say the weight : affect ratio is almost reversed, and that very small changes make fore/aft swing wildly back and forth.

So I have a 275 ton displacement hull.  I place a single 2" in the foreward overlook.  The main tower comes next, as close to the fore gun as can be.  I'm showing 100% foreward displacement.  After that I place two small funnels, getting a hiliarious <50% efficiency doing 29 knts.  I place, as fully aft as possible, 2 side by side single tube launchers.  The balance still shows 100 % foreward.  Now I place, in the small space between stacks and tubes, a single 2" gun, which is aft of the center by length.  The weight is now 100% aft.

If I REALLY fuss around with where things are placed, and remove the foreward gun in that raised position on the bows, I can eventually find a balance that isn't disastrous, but getting even close to fore/aft balance is maddening.  The fact that a single 2.2 ton gun has more effect than 4 16 ton is perfect evidence that weight distribution is bugged on torpedo boats.  At least the basic, starting one.

I have not tested the later torpedo boats, but today I built a 'destroyer I', as Germany, 1910 campaign start, and was easily able to make a balanced ship with multiple guns, 2x3tube launchers, speed, and armored for a DD.  Enough speed to be a real threat on the dash.

1.06 beta needs a lot of tweaking after the gun customization upgrade, but it's very promising, and looks like it's just a matter of getting maths working correctly in this instance.

Agreed on all counts

Edited June 8, 2022 by Littorio

[LoSboccacc]

I think it takes into account gun height. It's hard but it's doable to balance a 275t torpedo boat if you put the gun on deck. Pitch will be shit. Minimize beam and draft so you get the longest possible version of the model that fits in 275t

 

if you really want a design with the gun on the lookout, there you go:

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by LoSboccacc

[Sturmalex]

Ships damaged from a prior engagement are counting towards VP. Means if you have a couple of "Straggle"-Engagements they produce VP multiple times.

[neph]

6 hours ago, Schmitty21 said:

Its the armored belt. Move the rear gun back further and it will balance it out. You have to move it very far back.

 

1 hour ago, Littorio said:

I didn't have a rear gun. I was balancing with torpedoes which weigh far more than a 2" gun. Moving the tower and stack also didn't change this.

Agreed on all counts

torpedos don't stretch the citadel. boilers (funnels) do. guns do. You have citadel extending fore but not aft--huge weight offset. dunno why TBs have citadels...

[neph]

6 hours ago, UnleashtheKraken said:

I've been testing this myself and my suspicion thus far is that the weight offset calculation is acting very bizarrely on torpedo boats.

Torpedo single tubes weigh 16 ton, while the 2" gun weighs 2.2 or so, with some adjustments to barrel and bore.  Smoke stacks and other items also affect the weight balance in very weird ways.  I'd say the weight : affect ratio is almost reversed, and that very small changes make fore/aft swing wildly back and forth.

So I have a 275 ton displacement hull.  I place a single 2" in the foreward overlook.  The main tower comes next, as close to the fore gun as can be.  I'm showing 100% foreward displacement.  After that I place two small funnels, getting a hiliarious <50% efficiency doing 29 knts.  I place, as fully aft as possible, 2 side by side single tube launchers.  The balance still shows 100 % foreward.  Now I place, in the small space between stacks and tubes, a single 2" gun, which is aft of the center by length.  The weight is now 100% aft.

If I REALLY fuss around with where things are placed, and remove the foreward gun in that raised position on the bows, I can eventually find a balance that isn't disastrous, but getting even close to fore/aft balance is maddening.  The fact that a single 2.2 ton gun has more effect than 4 16 ton is perfect evidence that weight distribution is bugged on torpedo boats.  At least the basic, starting one.

I have not tested the later torpedo boats, but today I built a 'destroyer I', as Germany, 1910 campaign start, and was easily able to make a balanced ship with multiple guns, 2x3tube launchers, speed, and armored for a DD.  Enough speed to be a real threat on the dash.

1.06 beta needs a lot of tweaking after the gun customization upgrade, but it's very promising, and looks like it's just a matter of getting maths working correctly in this instance.

the weight is coming from the citadel. see thread: https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/40056-beta-106-update-5-impossible-to-balance-small-boats-due-to-citadel-weight/