Seasonal Patch: The Missing Links Part 1

[Dalai Lama]

Homophobia, racism and toxicity isn't solved by removing ways to communicate. Communication actually is the only way to fight them.

[Suppenkelle]

21 minutes ago, Dalai Lama said:

Homophobia, racism and toxicity isn't solved by removing ways to communicate. Communication actually is the only way to fight them.

I guess it isn't the goal of the game to solve homophobia, racism and toxicity. Would be a bit much to ask for. Blocking the means to spread them is a first step in  the right direction, however.

[Captain TShirt]

I disabled chat in World of Tanks for a month, and my WN8 rating went up by like 250 points.

Good call. Good riddance. I won't miss any of you  

[Liq]

1 minute ago, Captain TShirt said:

I disabled chat in World of Tanks for a month, and my WN8 rating went up by like 250 points.

Good call. Good riddance. I won't miss any of you  

Nice shirt!

[Christendom]

2 hours ago, Dalai Lama said:

Homophobia, racism and toxicity isn't solved by removing ways to communicate. Communication actually is the only way to fight them.

Or you have moderators / tools in place to remove them.  It is really quite that simple.

A certain player comes to mind with all this toxicity, but yet he still remains after consistently being temp. chat restricted.  If we're serious about removing overall toxicity in game, why the f*ck is this guy still allowed to play it.  Baffles my mind.

This is one of my favorites

 

but yea, removing chat completely is the ONLY way to solve this problem...

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Christendom

[Despe]

I dont like remove Global chat when i have lot of friends in other factions and i like too much talk with him in that chat. Toxicity levels in global are not high, but i guess the best way to figth vs this toxicity is ban the toxic players and put more moderators in game chat.

[Dusty_Sailor]

11 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Or you have moderators / tools in place to remove them.  It is really quite that simple.

A certain player comes to mind with all this toxicity, but yet he still remains after consistently being moderated.  If we're the serious about removing overall toxicity in game, why the f*ck is this guy still allowed to play it.  Baffles my mind.

This is one of my favorites

 

but yea, removing chat completely is the ONLY way to solve this problem...

 

It's simple, comrade. if cow is sick. You remove cow. No cow, no cow disease.

[You]

12 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Or you have moderators / tools in place to remove them.  It is really quite that simple.

A certain player comes to mind with all this toxicity, but yet he still remains after consistently being moderated.  If we're the serious about removing overall toxicity in game, why the f*ck is this guy still allowed to play it.  Baffles my mind.

This is one of my favorites

 

but yea, removing chat completely is the ONLY way to solve this problem...

 

i've seen better moderation in twitch chats then ingame tbh  

[Captain TShirt]

18 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Or you have moderators / tools in place to remove them.  It is really quite that simple.

A certain player comes to mind with all this toxicity, but yet he still remains after consistently being moderated.  If we're the serious about removing overall toxicity in game, why the f*ck is this guy still allowed to play it.  Baffles my mind.

This is one of my favorites

 

but yea, removing chat completely is the ONLY way to solve this problem...

 

I think @admin is making the point that toxic shit-talk makes up the majority of Global comms. Cruelty, unsportsmanlike dunking on losing players, etc. is the *primary* content of Global chat. Admin is arguing that it's a cesspool. Skimming the turds off of the top doesn't change the content of the pool.

Your approach works only if you feel that Global is not primarily toxic, which is a valid enough opinion, though it's not the opinion shared by Admin, or me for whatever that's worth.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Captain TShirt

[Dalai Lama]

46 minutes ago, Suppenkelle said:

I guess it isn't the goal of the game to solve homophobia, racism and toxicity. Would be a bit much to ask for. Blocking the means to spread them is a first step in  the right direction, however.

It was more of a general statement. By just silencing them you won't get rid of them. They'll continue to spread through different channels e.g. nation chat. Moderation will do the trick. 

Also Global Chat was an essential part of this community. It's toxicity is just a symptom of the state of the community itself. Removing it won't cure the illness just hide a symptom in my opinion.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Dalai Lama

[Christendom]

25 minutes ago, Captain TShirt said:

I think @admin is making the point that toxic shit-talk makes up the majority of Global comms. Cruelty, unsportsmanlike dunking on losing players, etc. is the *primary* content of Global chat. Admin is arguing that it's a cesspool. Skimming the turds off of the top doesn't change the content of the pool.

Your approach works only if you feel that Global is not primarily toxic, which is a valid enough opinion, though it's not the opinion shared by Admin, or me for whatever that's worth.

I’ve been online gaming longer than some NA players have been alive.  There is, has and will always be toxic chat from immature adults in every game.  Gaming is a form of escapism and it simply is the nature of the beast.  NA is not mutually exclusive to a salty all chat.  Apart from a few individuals as I mentioned above, it’s actually more well natured than most games I’ve played over the years.  
 

Does NA need moderation from time to time?  Yes.  Is it actually being moderated?  No.  Think of NA community like a garden.  If you want a good one full of juicy tomatoes and “fine” woods, you need to tend it.  Weeds will grow if you don’t pick them.  We don’t pick the weeds.  Does that mean you give it up completely?  Maybe if your goal is to stop giving a shit and move on.  I really hope that’s not the plan.

Maybe if we actually have moderators that PLAY the game and help keep it clean...what a unique concept....global will be less toxic.  Or we simply have a toggle/opt in option for global like most games have.  Removing chats completely is an absurd overstep.

Can you honestly say you’ve seen even the most basic levels of chat moderation done to keep global in check?  I certainly haven’t.  I’m sure there are trustworthy individuals willing to step up and handle it in exchange for a fancy ship or 2.   Maybe I’m thinking too far outside the box   

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Christendom

[kapteinsnabeltann]

Its social game!

how can we chat warriors survive now 😭

[Cecil Selous]

There is this wonderful ignore function. Let's advertise this more and keep global chat. If one has to go then battle chat can go down the shitter imho but keeping it also is still the better solution.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Cecil Selous

[Knuddel]

On 8/8/2020 at 9:44 AM, admin said:

After final review of the tribunals, reporting system volumes and the levels of toxicity in general chat I have approved complete removal of Battle chat with enemies, Global chat and Help chat when this patch hits live servers.  Please take diplomatic precautions as necessary. 

Global chat and help chat will only be present on testbed. 

Why just caurse a Part of the Community is very toxic remove those very nice features which helps everyone?? Just caurse some players abuse it? Its like forbidding to talk caurse u could use badwords... Seriusly thats a Bullshid idear. 

But for the Rest i am very happy to see that.

[Teutonic]

2 hours ago, Christendom said:

If it’s toxicity that has been preventing Naval Action from really taking off and retaining new players, I’m curious how actual toxic games still manage to retain millions of players.   League of Legends, CoD or DOTA.  5 mins spent in the chat of those games is quite the experience.  Perhaps they retain thousands/millions of players daily despite truly awful player commentary for other reasons?  Dare I name them?

Removing battle and global chat would be yet another foolish decision in what seems like a downward trend of poor choices that has seen the game hemorrhage more and more veteran players that have stuck by you, Naval Action and helped fund future games labs products.  This is a slap in the face to them.  The select few players you listen to has not lead to the best overall decisions and experiences for the community, but it would seem less headaches and work for well... you. 

Let’s entertain that global and battle chat are indeed the toxic cesspools you say they are and let’s also forget the fact that this is a MMORPG with an emphasis on multiplayer.  I have very seldom seen a user online with the green text of a moderator since release.   Very seldom in general really in my 7000ish hours logged in Naval Action.  If the tools to moderate and clean up said toxic chat is at your disposal and they aren’t used properly or at all really.... is it really the community that is at fault?

I really don't need to add more... this is everything that needs to be said.

[Medniy Sandal]

3 hours ago, admin said:

Кстати, это не наша идея .. Это предложение игрока. Здесь есть несколько парней, которых мы всегда слушаем. Это было предложено ими.

Несколько лет назад вы уже признавали ошибку, что нельзя слушать кого-либо из игроков. Несколько игроков это 1% (или меньше) от всей базы играющих.

Возможно стоит напомнить игрокам, что в настройках игры есть пункт отключающий чаты, если этих игроков раздражает чат. Либо вообще выключить глобалку и другие чаты. А то получится опять ситуация "наныли" ))).

Но, конечно вам решать. 

[Christendom]

1 hour ago, Dusty_Sailor said:

It's simple, comrade. if cow is sick. You remove cow. No cow, no cow disease.

How simple 

[Knuddel]

3 hours ago, You said:

this would IMO be a much better suggestion.

To much 2nd chances are given in tribunal, should be 30 days chat ban if you're racisct, facist, homophobic etc in chat, with a Terms of Service acknowledge to enter the game, where the next is 6 month chat ban etc.

 

Not just a Chatbann. Bive them A Bann at all for 1 Week. IF it happens again 2 Weeks. Last bann 1 Month and than done. Ban them in total. make Drastic Punishment and even the Biggest haters/Toxic Spreading Reta**s would think about there actions... 

[Captain TShirt]

1 hour ago, Christendom said:

I’ve been online gaming longer than some NA players have been alive.  There is, has and will always be toxic chat from immature adults in every game.  Gaming is a form of escapism and it simply is the nature of the beast.  NA is not mutually exclusive to a salty all chat.  Apart from a few individuals as I mentioned above, it’s actually more well natured than most games I’ve played over the years.  
 

Does NA need moderation from time to time?  Yes.  Is it actually being moderated?  No.  Think of NA community like a garden.  If you want a good one full of juicy tomatoes and “fine” woods, you need to tend it.  Weeds will grow if you don’t pick them.  We don’t pick the weeds.  Does that mean you give it up completely?  Maybe if your goal is to stop giving a shit and move on.

Maybe if we actually have moderators that PLAY the game and help keep it clean...what a unique concept....global will be less toxic.  Or we simply have a toggle/opt in option for global like most games have.  Removing chats completely is an absurd overstep

 

Far be it from me to argue with such a wise and learned graybeard, so please take this next point with all due respect:

What are the main goals of a game like this?

• Immersion? Sure
• Fun? Definitely
• Social interaction? Without a doubt

If you agree that those are the main goals of the game (and maybe you don't! or maybe that list isn't comprehensive, so that's okay too!), then it's not a far step to also agree that those three things need to be balanced against each other, preventing one from overtaking the other two.

• Allow fun to overrun things, and you've got flaming cannonballs, magic skeleton ships, and buried treasure all over the place, and it becomes a different game.
• Allow immersion to overrun things, and you've got keys to manage every sail on your ship, your crew gets sick, you need half your hold stuffed with food and supplies, and it becomes a different game.
• Allow social interactions to overrun things, and the vast majority of your player interactions will diminish fun and immersion, and it *has* become a different game. This is arguably the state of Naval Action in its current form. Do the majority of social interactions in Naval Action contribute or detract from the other two hypothesized goals of the game? Right now, it's probably the latter.

To use your garden metaphor, water is essential to your garden, but flooding the garden will destroy it. By reducing the flow, especially a particularly toxic flow of water, you *could* allow the other essential factors of the garden become more pronounced. Will it work? Who knows? It's their game, and we all just play along. We'll see what happens.

As for moderators, I think you overestimate the resources available from the developers to prevent Naval Action players from making each other feel like shit. This is not a financial powerhouse. So whatever is done, I'd guess it has to be done without hiring more staff. Community-controlled moderation would probably be a disaster (and I think it was, right? that was before my time).

Edited August 14, 2020 by Captain TShirt

[Conte D. Catellani]

Back to the testbed: there are some advantages for frigates from the new mechanics or with the new gun and wind shadow they will be useless? 

 

[Dalai Lama]

1 hour ago, Dusty_Sailor said:

It's simple, comrade. if cow is sick. You remove cow. No cow, no cow disease.

Well that metaphor doesn't reflect what removing global chat is.

better would be: If the cow has fever remove the thermometer. No thermometer no fever. 

Frigates are not ment to fight against SOLs. But I agree they need another purpose in game apart from PZ and hunting T-Brigs

Edited August 14, 2020 by Dalai Lama

[Sea Archer]

Imo chat is an essential part of the game, even with enemy players and in open world. 

So in the future no one can tell me that I am about to sink his only ship and it would be nice to let him go, nor can I tell some poor midshipman that shall run and I won't sink him....

Fighting a few toxic elements removes the fun for many other, I don't like it and it will not improve the quality of this game, at least for me.

[Christendom]

9 minutes ago, Captain TShirt said:

Far be it from me to argue with such a wise and learned graybeard, so please take this next point with all due respect:

What are the main goals of a game like this?

• Immersion? Sure
• Fun? Definitely
• Social interaction? Without a doubt

If you agree that those are the main goals of the game (and maybe you don't! or maybe that list isn't comprehensive, so that's okay too!), then it's not a far step to also agree that those three things need to be balanced against each other, preventing one from overtaking the other two.

• Allow fun to overrun things, and you've got flaming cannonballs, magic skeleton ships, and buried treasure all over the place, and it becomes a different game.
• Allow immersion to overrun things, and you've got keys to manage every sail on your ship, your crew gets sick, you need half your hold stuffed with food and supplies, and it becomes a different game.
• Allow social interactions to overrun things, and the vast majority of your player interactions will diminish fun and immersion, and it *has* become a different game. This is arguably the state of Naval Action in its current form. Do the majority of social interactions in Naval Action contribute or detract from the other two hypothesized goals of the game? Right now, it's probably the latter.

To use your garden metaphor, water is essential to your garden, but flooding the garden will destroy it. By reducing the flow, especially a particularly toxic flow of water, you *could* allow the other essential factors of the garden become more pronounced. Will it work? Who knows? It's their game, and we all just play along. We'll see what happens.

As for moderators, I think you overestimate the resources available from the developers to prevent Naval Action players from making each other feel like shit. This is not a financial powerhouse. So whatever is done, I'd guess it has to be done without hiring more staff. Community-controlled moderation would probably be a disaster (and I think it was, right? that was before my time).

We’ve never had community controlled moderation on a large or effective scale.  We’ve never had consistent moderators that play daily for more than a couple weeks at a time.

The immersion argument went out the window with...speed/repair mods, rage boarding, 100s of 1st rates on the water, circles of death, instanced battles, DLC ships and nations that were never in the Caribbean.  Let’s get real here. China owns ports in a game themed around the West Indies.  Immersion is a statement that get thrown around by try hards who barely play the game.   

Break it all down and Naval Action is a multi player game.  This means interacting with other players.  Can’t see their names on the OW, can’t speak to them in battle and we have 12 nations diluting a player base of 7-800 players. Maybe if we decided to get rid of 7 nations and boost the pop of only a key 5 or so with vibrant nation chats and trading I could get behind this move.  But we don’t. 

this is a change designed to lighten the support load disguised as “good” for the community.  

[Eduard L'Aquila]

7 hours ago, admin said:

Announcement 14th of August

After final review of the tribunals, reporting system volumes and the levels of toxicity in general chat I have approved complete removal of Battle chat with enemies, Global chat and Help chat when this patch hits live servers. Global chat only amplifies hate and toxicity allowing jerks to talk to other nations. We have thought differently when adding those chats to the game.

Please take diplomatic precautions as necessary.

Is there any possibility of keeping global chat on PVE?

While I generally leave it disabled for reasons of sanity, there are uses for it on PVE to foster cooperation and international actions.

[Captain TShirt]

3 hours ago, Christendom said:

We’ve never had community controlled moderation on a large or effective scale.  We’ve never had consistent moderators that play daily for more than a couple weeks at a time.

The immersion argument went out the window with...speed/repair mods, rage boarding, 100s of 1st rates on the water, circles of death, instanced battles, DLC ships and nations that were never in the Caribbean.  Let’s get real here. China owns ports in a game themed around the West Indies.  Immersion is a statement that get thrown around by try hards who barely play the game.   

Break it all down and Naval Action is a multi player game.  This means interacting with other players.  Can’t see their names on the OW, can’t speak to them in battle and we have 12 nations diluting a player base of 7-800 players. Maybe if we decided to get rid of 7 nations and boost the pop of only a key 5 or so with vibrant nation chats and trading I could get behind this move.  But we don’t. 

this is a change designed to lighten the support load disguised as “good” for the community.  

Yeah all fair points -- and my point was more about balancing immersion, social interaction, and fun in a three-way balance, rather than immersion alone being sole justification for killing off Global.

In my experience, the social interactions in NA are generally shit (especially in Battle chat and Global, although Nation chat certainly has its moments). It's led me to hold a very low opinion of the general community, especially with some of the more seasoned players who can't moderate their own behavior. A lot of touchy, high-strung, ultra-competitive, and extremely negative folks who see themselves as the lords of this tiny little make-believe realm that someone else built for them (and I say this not as a veiled insult at you, either -- my few personal interactions with you in-game, even the smack talk, have been fairly fun and pleasant, actually). That low opinion of the community is offset by a very high opinion of the game itself, which (and I undermine myself here) usually results in situations like this, where I take the Devs' side against the prevailing opinion of the community. I have to admit that I like the game they built, and I dislike most of the rest of you.  

From that personal perspective, the deactivation of Global Chat is no great loss. I don't feel it adds one ounce of enjoyment to the game for who don't need to steal fun to have fun. That opinion though, is mine, and could be proven to be objectively wrong. As a "newer" guy (coming up on my first anniversary this month!), that opinion/impression may have some value beyond its face, when discussing new player acquisition/retention -- but ultimately, it is, at the end of the day, just one guy's take on it.

I agree with the fragmentation issue. Too many nations, and the change would be easier to swallow if there were fewer, more populous nations. Not sure how you un-ring that bell though. Cutting out nations would be like dropping a bomb on the entrenched player-base, akin to a reset (maybe even requiring a reset).

Speaking as a USA player, we seem to have a pretty big population, and lots of older, less competitive/more casual types (although we've still got our crop of PvP strivers), so it stings less for us since there's usually lots of friendly(ish) banter going on in nation throughout the day. The majority of interpersonal toxicity we experience in this current era of NA comes from other nations' seal clubbers laughing at our newer (or older-aged) guys in Global as they farm our trading "hallway" up the coast or try to bait fights by SA. Turning those raiders into faceless bad guys instead of cackling bullies would actually probably help us more than it would harm us. I understand that the situation is probably different for other nations.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Captain TShirt