Timber Feedback Thread - PINNED

[Henry Long Castle]

I really like @Mannow's Idea about being able to convert old ships to at least their seasoned variants. Or instead of that I would be happy if we could get our upgrades from these Fir Fir or whatever ships back. The way I see it there is no reason for me to put a naval clock in a ship that cant reach the speed cap. 

Also has speed cap been removed???  It doesnt exist in netfly atm.


 

15 hours ago, admin said:

Our goal is to have all timbers to be useful and unique in something, with obvious negatives in other things.
Let's take fir for example

• Firs bends well that's why they resist pressure better when masts are under pressure of wind, and even damaged they keep some HP.
  • That's why Fir ships have more splinter damage resistance and more mast hp.
• But it's a soft wood so it should be penetrated very easily
• Fir a fast because its 31lb per cubic foot vs white oak 48 per cubic foot when seasoned ships are lighter and accelerate faster
• I know it might not be the best combat wood, but its the best escape wood as no-one can catch you if you dont intend to fight.
• It is also a best interceptor wood as you definitely faster than anyone and can help a heavy support group stop someone
• And perhaps its a very good kiting wood as you have amazing turn inertia and speed and acceleration as your thickness penalties are not so obvious from 500m

This was a theory of course, practice will show

The fact people don't see benefits of fir means they are not good enough as they should be obvious. 
On the other hand the mast thickness is overdone in some woods and should be tuned. We see battles lasting much longer (in heavy ships)

Thanks for giving us the logic behind the change. It does make sense yes. However the reason me and other people are upset about the change is that the already built ships were made for a very specific role that we feel they cant fulfill anymore. Thus making these ships not worth the upgrades we put on them. 

Im sure you can understand us for seeing this update the way we see it.


To sum it up, I believe that:

• Players are unhappy because of pre-patch made ships having their values changed.
• Players would be happy if they could get their upgrades from these ships back.
• Players would be even more happy if they could convert their old builds to woods matching their boats purpose better.
• Specifically about Fir. I think no one would complain if at least it retained the old speed value of +10% for normal Fir Fir and + 11% for Fir S Fir S builds.(if im wrong about the values please correct me)

Edited June 21, 2020 by Henry Long Castle

[Henry Long Castle]

17 hours ago, ChineseBatman said:

So all those complaining that fir fir is now useless. Grab you’re Cahonas and realise you had it far too easy for too long, and adapt to the situation. The wood changes are good for the most part.

I really think teak/wo Speed builds will be very powerful now. As you can speed build it yet have incredible tank and thickness. There will be more fights without the ability to run and reprint constantly which is a good change. Will be forced to make smart decisions and commit to the fight, or flee early, otherwise sealing you’re doom.

Why should I be forced to fight a fleet of 2 endymions and 2 ingermanlands in my Pirate Frigate ? I think you are wrong thinking that this has created a balanced environment. It favors heavy builds now. But there is a catch.

Before the patch as long as you were in a 16 knot ship you wouldnt have to care much about trolls like snows or death squadrons with heavier ships ganking you. You reach 16 knots there was nothing the enemy could do. Now not only you wont be able to reach those 16 knots since the wood is slower but you will have to worry about snows reaching 18 knots or faster. Good luck escaping 2-3 snows. Lets see how long your teak white oak lasts under fire from 2-3 snows XD. Your bad turn inertia will make it even harder for you to maneuver to avoid stern rakes WO being a hard wood will splinter like hell and destroy your crew. The snows on the other hand will be able to turn better than what they used to and since they have more HP on their masts they can take more hits. Fir planking will make them take hits without loosing crew as well, making boarding you easier.

If anything Fir Fir might be better now for brawling than what it used to be (unless you get hit alot lol) with range being a disadvantage now .

[Redman29]

First, I like the change in frame parts and planking as it evens out the quantities and wanted to state that first as I will touch base with that later. 

Heavier Woods

- Live Oak and African Oak for the most part I like where they are now. The nerf to the thickness of LO is necessary considering the hp buff it received and these two woods are really similar with a trade in speed and turn for more hp. 

- Greenheart, Really like where this is. Great hp in trade off for speed and thickness. 

- Locust. Due to the thickness value of Locust I consider it a heavier wood. I believe that the speed and turn inertia of this wood should be nerfed. Decreasing the speed of Locust (S) by -3 % and the speed of Locust -4 % as well as increasing the turn inertia to the 15% range would place LO and Locust on a level playing field. 

As you can see by the screenshot, Locust has a .5 knots advantage over LO (removing .2 knots due to fast modifier) as it currently is now. Reducing the speed difference between the two from 5% to 2% will bring the difference to .2 knots and still give Locust a worst turn inertia but the difference will be 5% vs the 20% it is currently at. This will give the players a choice between LO and Locust: You can either have high thickness w/less hp, slightly better speed and maneuverability or less thickness with higher hp. Buffing LO thickness and making it the highest in the game again will make this far too op and will see Locust regulated again to what Cag was, worst than LO just with better speed that didn't make it worthwhile. I firmly believe that with a speed and maneuverability nerf to Locust will put both builds on par. 

- White Oak is still relevant as a planking and less so as a frame. White Oak has primary been used as a planking for some time now and still holds true especially with the change of the planking amount. 

- Daniz Oak is a cross between White Oak (S) and White Oak which I feel is a good place for it. 

- Sabicu gets a well deserved buff. Before Teak was always better than Sabicu in almost every regard, now Sabicu is better armor wise but sacrifices speed for it. What's even more important is Sabicu could is relevant in use for planking on numerous builds as shown on the other thread with Locust/Sacicu.

- Teak, with this one I have several misgivings about. It did receive a buff but in comparison to the Locust/Cag buff it got severely power creeped. In regards to other teaks/sabicu it sacrifices thickness and and hp in return for speed which I am fine with. But with the speed of locust it kind of makes it irrelevant as shown below. 

As you can see, Locust/WO has 800 more hp, 300 less structure, 9 more thickness with a speed difference of .3 (Accounting for the difference between Sail 4 vs Sail 3). This hits Teak/WO or Teak in general quite hard as .3 speed is almost inconsequential. This difference is further shown with Malabar Teak, African Teak, and Sabicu which has similar speed values to locust but far less thickness. This further reinforces my belief that that Locust should be nerfed -3% speed for for seasoned, -4% speed for non seasoned and the nerf to maneuverability.

- Fir and softer woods. I realize fir has been hit hard, especially in regards to mast thickness. Suggestion is the buff the mast thickness of the softer woods while nerfing the thickness of the stronger woods. And fir probably could use a slight speed buff. 

- New woods. I believe that the number or ports that drop the new woods should be doubled or even tripled. As it is now, 8 ports drop the new woods, 3 of which are unconquerable. For those ports which are not unconquerable they essentially have a target on their back and in all cases that happen to be a crafting ports. I do like how the new woods are rare but increasing the number of ports slightly will still make them relatively rare but increase the availability somewhat. 

- Seasoned Woods. The gap between seasoned and non seasoned woods has decreased which I am all in favor of. In regards to Teak and White Oak the gap has been reduced by half. With Live Oak, Cag, and Sabicu the gap has been reduced by a third. However, seasoning logs is still extremely expensive and 3000 labour hours equate to 70 seasoned logs. I would recommend decreasing the labour hours per seasoned logs by half as this will make crafting seasoned logs much more efficient and worthwhile. 

Overall I like the changes for the most part. Somethings should be tweaked here and there, especially in regards to Locust as it edges out both T/WO and LO/WO which has serious balance issues. I also like how woods like Sabicu and Locust do become useful as these are essentially harder versions of LO and Teak now. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Redman29

[Sir Texas Sir]

9 hours ago, Kejsaren said:

 

For god sake no, we finally heading right direction... instead make seasoned woods easier to craft.

The new woods are still rare and going to be hard to get for most folks, so we won't see every one crafting in them so I would prefer that they make seasoned woods cheaper to craft.  Right now they cost way to much doubloons, tools and hours to craft.   Maybe give more out put for what you put in and convert.   Your all ready paying for the doubloons and tools on top of how you got the woods, why are they so much more expensive to craft.  Also crafting should give your xp if it doesn't  I'm sick that only ships give you xp.  This way you can give some one the job to craft find woods only if they want to and gain levels.   

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

13 hours ago, Botq said:

Theres very very little difference between non S and S wood. Why bother crafting it or doing privateer fleets ? It should be buffed back a bit

no one is forced to take seasoned woods over standard ones. if the difference isn't worth it for you, feel free to sail standard only.

[Never]

35 minutes ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

no one is forced to take seasoned woods over standard ones. if the difference isn't worth it for you, feel free to sail standard only.

That's a dumb argument. They are in the game and should be properly balanced. 

[Malcolm3]

Can't say anything about balancing new and old Woods' stats, cause too busy at work for testing them properly, though i can agree with @Redman29 and others that S-woods should be a bit cheaper to produce in terms of LH at least.

But the thing I strongly dislike is the method of obtaining them - small amount dropped in a certain few ports (part of them unconquerable capitals) combined with players are being able to put contracts on them will soon lead to the only chosen few  very rich clans/alts will be able to have this woods, especially when meta build will be developed.

Basing on following statements by @admin

22 hours ago, admin said:

New woods are brought from distant lands and are very rare and extremely expensive. 

If the new timber supply is very low but stable.
Then - New woods must be sold by traders in predictable places so you don't have to wander around searching for them. 

Current prices for rare woods will get even higher
Malabar teak will stay without contracts a control group. But we think players will eventually prefer to be able to buy it at high price using contracts than to camp the port.

I want to suggest following system for implemenmting new rare wood in game combining rareness, randomness and being somehow predictable and logic:

Basic principles

• Traders importing this Woods to Caribbean should carry them to the most profitable places (defined by taxes income, so players can somewhat influence it) - predictability
• But they can import this new Woods at any time and in any of such port and wood also can be defined randomly - randomness
• So to avoid situation when new Woods will drop at rich crafting ports only - the area for dropping should be not certain rich port, but certain rich county as a whole with certain port selected randomly.
• You shouldn't be able to make a contracts on new Wood, but have to come and buy it directly, thus need of sailing around in unsused ports.
• Ideally new Woods should be carried with real trade ships spawning neat their destination port (so they can be intercepted)

Mechanic

• At each MT game engine summarizes tax income of each county and defines basic modifier for probability of new rare Wood dropping in that certain county.
• Each real game day (from one MT to another) is divided on certain intervals (2-4 real hours)
• During each interval in the random moment of it the following procedure takes place:
• 1. Roll for each county to check will new rare Wood drop there (with possibility of it dropping in each county on the map or vice versa)
• 2. If 1st is "True" then second roll is made to define certain port for drop with capital having doubled probability for it (e.g.: Veracruz county has 6 ports, so Veracruz itself will have 34%, and the each of other ports - 17%)
• 3. Then the type of rare wood is defined (optionally with some regional modifier with tying certain woods to certain counties) and the amount of it (up to 300 logs)

So no outbidding, no click-hunting and/or shop-camping but sailing around in areas where wood will most likely drops (exploration)

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

1 hour ago, Never said:

That's a dumb argument. They are in the game and should be properly balanced. 

this isn´t a dumb argument at all. what´s unbalancing is giving some stuff too great an edge over others. for this reason I do strongly appreciate small differences of quality to not render "minor" materials useless!

[Hethwill]

Some posts have been merged into this thread.

[Rouleur07]

I generally concur with Redman and his suggested changes although one issue remains regardless. The buff to Locust and Sabicu also makes the port investments look wrong. 15 points for both yet Teak, WO and LO remain at 25. So many now have the wrong investments in the most convenient ports for building Locust/Sabicu as well.  If these remain with their current values the cost of investments should be reversed or adjusted accordingly - why would you build the wrong "wood" in the wrong ports in the first place?

[Raf Van Boom]

What is 'Danzic' @admin, did you mean Danzig/Dantzic/Gdansk?

 

Also, where are these 'traders' coming from, can they be intercepted and their cargo captured or do they magically drop from the sky?

Edited June 21, 2020 by Raf Van Boom

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

Rare woods have to stay rare. Seasoned versions by excessive costs, exotic new timbers by (unexpected!) spawning.

Of course people bombard devs with demands to make them all less rare. Everybody wants them. I hope devs don't listen to their pleas. The only result will be nobody will want regular woods anymore. Which aren't so much worse at all.

I once thought devs wanted to produce as much player traffic in OW as possible (for providing targets in PvP).

Do you get more traffic by making people place their alts into known spawning ports of new timbers, doing boring bidding wars? Or wouldn't more traffic happen if exotic timber would spawn irregularly here and there across the map in changing ports so people would have to search for them (or make lucky finds without searching)?

Is that a positive effect on inflation issues of reals, inviting to unrestricted bidding wars? I think not. Is it good for distributing exotic timbers between nations and clans (and individuals) evenly? I think not, I posted before why.

Once again: giving port shop ships, as small as they are (7th, 6th rates and Cerberus max), the new timbers into their random woods composition is a nice way for people not belonging to those few who can sustain crazy bidding wars in some ports to get theirs. No matter if for resale or actually collecting them for building something. Which takes ages. But is better than nothing at all...

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

1 hour ago, Raf Van Boom said:

What is 'Danzic' @admin, did you mean Danzig/Dantzic/Gdansk?

 

It's an alternative spelling of modern Danzig, seems around 1800's it was more popular and vanished later.

See facsimile pages of contemporary books showing 'Danzic' spelling:

https://books.google.de/books?id=Vq44AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=Danzic&source=bl&ots=3BXsc4R5av&sig=ACfU3U3gzuV6L2RUmxgmS9C7nOU7Jaykag&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi--obw-pLqAhWMy6QKHftBDVg4ChDoATAAegQIBhAB#v=onepage&q=Danzic&f=false

https://books.google.de/books?id=p5pXAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=Danzic&source=bl&ots=FCrS30plAJ&sig=ACfU3U0JFDx-_wnIFmk0M8w9FB6pd8rPcA&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi--obw-pLqAhWMy6QKHftBDVg4ChDoATABegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=Danzic&f=false

https://books.google.de/books?id=AM236_nzP9sC&pg=PA323&lpg=PA323&dq=Danzic&source=bl&ots=n8ltrrNr2b&sig=ACfU3U1538k7bLtgkGGYzxxVY3wlRGWMFw&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi--obw-pLqAhWMy6QKHftBDVg4ChDoATACegQIBRAB#v=onepage&q=Danzic&f=false

[Louis Garneray]

1 hour ago, Raf Van Boom said:

What is 'Danzic' @admin, did you mean Danzig/Dantzic/Gdansk?

 

Also, where are these 'traders' coming from, can they be intercepted and their cargo captured or do they magically drop from the sky?

nothing better than to see a French schooling a Polish guy about his own language spelling.

3 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

It's an alternative spelling of modern Danzig, seems around 1800's it was more popular and vanished later.

See facsimile pages of contemporary books showing 'Danzic' spelling:

https://books.google.de/books?id=Vq44AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=Danzic&source=bl&ots=3BXsc4R5av&sig=ACfU3U3gzuV6L2RUmxgmS9C7nOU7Jaykag&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi--obw-pLqAhWMy6QKHftBDVg4ChDoATAAegQIBhAB#v=onepage&q=Danzic&f=false

https://books.google.de/books?id=p5pXAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=Danzic&source=bl&ots=FCrS30plAJ&sig=ACfU3U0JFDx-_wnIFmk0M8w9FB6pd8rPcA&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi--obw-pLqAhWMy6QKHftBDVg4ChDoATABegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=Danzic&f=false

https://books.google.de/books?id=AM236_nzP9sC&pg=PA323&lpg=PA323&dq=Danzic&source=bl&ots=n8ltrrNr2b&sig=ACfU3U1538k7bLtgkGGYzxxVY3wlRGWMFw&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi--obw-pLqAhWMy6QKHftBDVg4ChDoATACegQIBRAB#v=onepage&q=Danzic&f=false

Especially when the sources are not Polish.

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

1 hour ago, Louis Garneray said:

Especially when the sources are not Polish.

If you had a closer look you'd find the sources are as international as they can get...

A French officer (D'Artois) in 1813

a Russian general (Bennigsen) in 1807

a British merchant (John Gellibrand Hubbard) in 1842

 

But let's include a Polish Count using the 'Danzic' spelling, if that pleases you better:

Count Valerian Kasinski, 1838:

https://books.google.de/books?id=h3lIAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=polish+count+"Danzic"&source=bl&ots=-xGo-UQ0Ps&sig=ACfU3U0w1a6DYlL_9910AUtBH-hwl5aO7A&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2sNrQlpPqAhX0JMUKHagIBJcQ6AEwAXoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=polish count "Danzic"&f=false

or a Prussian, Comte de Hertzberg in 1787:

https://books.google.de/books?id=oX1gAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=Danzic+Comte&source=bl&ots=yn7o5-BYvV&sig=ACfU3U3pmyMUMfUJ9DwnQYbm8oh4wR4EzQ&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs2dqzlJPqAhWR2KQKHRElCD8Q6AEwCXoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=Danzic Comte&f=false

[Henry Long Castle]

What does Danzic or Dazing or however its pronounced have to do with giving feedback about the new Timbers? 

[Sir Texas Sir]

I was looking at the map and notice where the rare woods drop.  Wouldn't it be better if they actually dropped not at capital ports but lesser ports?  This would give the other ports more meaning to own and some income for the owners since pretty much only capital ports make any sort of money.  HOnestly I think any rare item drop should not be at regional capital ports at all.   They are the trade hubs of the regions so folks should be brining things there to sale not going there to pick up the drops of them.

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

3 hours ago, Henry Long Castle said:

What does Danzic or Dazing or however its pronounced have to do with giving feedback about the new Timbers? 

Name is used in two of the new exotic timbers, in case you did not notice. And two people asked about that spelling before me, Malcolm3 and Raf van Boom.

All three of us are happy to enlighten you. You're welcome.

[Henry Long Castle]

13 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Name is used in two of the new exotic timbers, in case you did not notice. And two people asked about that spelling before me, Malcolm3 and Raf van Boom.

All three of us are happy to enlighten you. You're welcome.

Im just saying that all that has nothing to do with feedback on how the new woods perform. Feel free to keep arguing about a name instead of things that actually matter.

[Serk]

Where does it say the feedback is limited to performance? No feedback allowed on drop location, cost of production? 
 

You want them to start a new thread on that matter instead?

Edited June 21, 2020 by Serk

[LIONOFWALES]

Hmmm, in smaller ships the seasoned woods will offer little advantage... from what I see... far more advantage coming from building the line ships out of these Seasoned woods as it stands. I personally think this is a good thing... makes sense. I cant wait to see more information come down the pipe when the players that can afford these seasoned woods post more information about how they work and the advantages of the woods themselves. Back in Beta I did all the crafting and wood growing, ship building... I understand how the system works. However... I logged on recently after a long break and found  new woods and Seasoned wood types. I need to learn up all over again. Can't wait.

Sail safe and sail well Captains.

[Henry Long Castle]

4 hours ago, LIONOFWALES said:

Hmmm, in smaller ships the seasoned woods will offer little advantage... from what I see... far more advantage coming from building the line ships out of these Seasoned woods as it stands. I personally think this is a good thing... makes sense. I cant wait to see more information come down the pipe when the players that can afford these seasoned woods post more information about how they work and the advantages of the woods themselves. Back in Beta I did all the crafting and wood growing, ship building... I understand how the system works. However... I logged on recently after a long break and found  new woods and Seasoned wood types. I need to learn up all over again. Can't wait.

Sail safe and sail well Captains.

You can see all about how wood types work in https://na-map.netlify.app/
Some seasoned woods might not be worth it but others do, even for frigates

Edited June 22, 2020 by Henry Long Castle

[Urchin]

13 hours ago, LIONOFWALES said:

Hmmm, in smaller ships the seasoned woods will offer little advantage... from what I see... 

Mahogany S for 20% crew protection from splinters. Because sailing a Prince every crewman counts when it comes to boarding. 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Urchin

[Victor Hugues]

Are you sure about the fair distribution of rare woods ?

- British and Dutch have the best woods (greenheart, rangoon teak and african oak, african teak) that appear in their IMPREGNABLE capital.

- French and Swedish have very good woods, but in their strategic port ( Bridgetown and Oraniestad), which will attract greeds.

- Americans and Russians only have common wood (live oak and white oak), but good for PB.

- Spanish have none, not even a poor italian larch. Not easy for them.

[Vibrio Cholerae]

4 minutes ago, Victor Hugues said:

- Americans and Russians only have common wood (live oak and white oak), but good for PB.

 

sorry to say but all nation have those wood=)

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Vibrio Cholerae