World Ceasefire Declared - Hostilities stop on Monday.

[van Veen]

43 minutes ago, admin said:

Hull speed is a 18th century understanding of speed and could be used in games about 18th century. Captain of that time had limited understanding of sailing behavior and should not use modern theories on seamanship. Froude who advanced these theories was just [-5] years old when Trafalgar happened. It was all found later.

What is your point of arguing? Its just seems you are arguing for the sake of arguing - which leads me to believe you are just a veiled hater who just tries to sneak "AHA THEY ARE WRONG" statement in every post you can. 

I am not a hater. I argue for the sake of the truth on an engineering topic that I happen to be interested in. No need to feel offended or be offensive. 

[Vernon Merrill]

Some people say they want “realism”.  And some of those same people would lose their shite if they could only sail upwind a bit past beam reach.  You know, like in real life.  

[admin]

39 minutes ago, van Veen said:

I am not a hater. I argue for the sake of the truth on an engineering topic that I happen to be interested in. No need to feel offended or be offensive. 

I need to tell you something

There was a guy here who argued on wind strength and its effect on speed 

• We said that in a strong wind almost gale a heavy ship will be a lot faster or faster than any frigate because frigate wont be able to take as much sail (and small ships will not sail at all)
• He claimed that we are wrong and argued that the rare out of print book had the proof (he posted the text from the book not the screens) the proof were the real sailing reports .

I did not take it lightly. The book was out of print and was not sold in Europe, so once I got to USA I immediately got this book delivered from a private used book store. 

Here is what he used to claim as proof of our bad view on wind strength.

The guy posted the reference without thinking, without trying to analyze this number of 16 knots for a merchant man. He did not understand what he was talking about and assumed whatever you see in print is correct. The book listed a french merchantman sailing 16 knots.  Every Clipper captain would look at this sailing report with disgust even in 1859. Every Endymion class frigate captain (and Pomone frenchman) would say "excuse me but the veffel wont go so fast"

We accept references only if they are well thought through and understood by the author from the position of theory and practical seamanship and game and game too. Theorists are great but practitioners will always win. 

We are very opinionated on this subject. We wont discuss your position if it is argued from the friend/foe perspective. We always check what we say and pass it through the cross referencing. And wont take it lightly when someone dismisses what we say without actually attempting to understand what we are saying.
 

So we will repeat. The longer ship in with equal conditions be faster. And 18th century ship will never exceed theoretical hull speed.
For example: Using old Endymion waterline length formula - Endymion theoretical hull speed is 16.31

What does it mean? Exactly what we said. Endymion speed will never exceed 16.31-41 knots whatever they do. Never.
Endymion will sail 15.5 knots on the best day based on the reports and will not exceed 16.3 knots whatever hull speed counter-points @Archaos posts here. 

Endymion reports are correct and are listed in multiple sources. And hull speed theory give a proper limit for every age of sail veffel, and is good enough to give a ballpark number without going into eddy making calculations.

[TheDread]

I don't understand what the hull speed argument is going for?   Are we suggesting that speed of 6th rates should be nerfed?  Because...  yes...  that's the case.  HMS Ontario had a hull speed in the 11.8 range...   And HMS Victory had a hull speed of 18+ knots.   If you could put properly sized diesel engines on both of them, that's the fastest speed you'd travel with efficiency.   

Of course...   for heavy displacement sailing ships...   it was just impossible to carry enough sail to reach hull speed...   which is why Victory actually topped out around 11ish too, right?  

What else are you guys arguing about?  Hull speed is a fact of physics, but it's not the whole (hull - ha pun!) story on a ship's top speed as it's actually fairly tricky to get to hull speed on a big ship without tearing the thing apart.  

[Hethwill]

Variable weather ( wind ).

[admin]

1 hour ago, TheDread said:

I don't understand what the hull speed argument is going for?   

The point is to show that this conversation is BS

Dev: Hull speed Pi is around 3
Some players: NO..  YOU ARE WRONG PI IS 3.14159265359.... it can even go further and exceed it, here is the link____

BS part is that both statements are true yet they continue to argue we are wrong.

[Beeekonda]

Patch when? 

Tuesday or Wednesday? 

[erelkivtuadrater]

22 minutes ago, Beeekonda said:

Patch when? 

Tuesday or Wednesday? 

Monday 25th May 2026 #expectations

Edited May 25, 2020 by erelkivtuadrater

[Nixolai]

17 minutes ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

Monday 25th May 2026 #expectations

#WeWaitALittleLonger

[Archaos]

6 hours ago, van Veen said:

Since you cross-linked the wikipedia entry, you should know that the hull length is by no means a hard limit to ship speed, as mentioned by @Archaos. So what is your point? 

Just for clarity, I want to point out that my posting of a link calling "Hull Speed" a bogus limit was in no way meant to contradict what @admin was saying. In his post he does allude to the fact that it is not a hard limit. I am not sure historically when "Hull Speed" was first considered when looking at ships speeds, but at some stage it was considered a limit and even today it still remains a restriction that may not be worth the effort to breach.

[Archaos]

6 hours ago, Aquillas said:

Also, something really noticeable is the ship heel when turning sharp. And this also should impact the speed a lot (breaking Kinetic energy).

Whit such heel than herebelow, I don't think that a ship can fire a broadside anywhere else than at 5 feet from hull.

(NB: I know that USS Nimitz is not a Snow...)

 

I think the loss of ships speed is actually quite well modeled in game as you will notice a decrease in speed with the rudder hard over.

As to the induced heel in a tight turn I do not believe ships of the line would be going fast enough to experience the same sort of heel as shown in the video. Age of sail ships heeled due to the wind acting on their sails and yes at top speeds would have had some heel due to the turn, but I doubt this would have affected their firing of broadsides as they would have been at battle sails during combat and going a lot slower.  

[Sir Texas Sir]

7 hours ago, Aquillas said:

Also, something really noticeable is the ship heel when turning sharp. And this also should impact the speed a lot (breaking Kinetic energy).

Whit such heel than herebelow, I don't think that a ship can fire a broadside anywhere else than at 5 feet from hull.

(NB: I know that USS Nimitz is not a Snow...)

 

This is part of sea trials for new ships and after they been dry docked.  We did it on the USS Independence.  The ship all ready felt light with no air wing on board (that is about 2K men and equipment out of 5k).  Man this was not fun to do at all and I been through 32' waves where the white caps went over the flight deck going through the middle of a typhoon before (between Philippines and Australia.)  

Oh the Indy was a Forrester class conventional Carrier, these Nimtz class made us look like a small boy when side by side.

 

Back to game stuff.  I still think repair and other things like accuracy needs to be reduced while at full sails.  There is a reason we have battle sails and why it was used instead of full sails during battles.   I said it before how to stop the long chase was to make reduced repiars or no repairs while at full sails.  Make is so you have to drop to Battle sails and below.  Then you won't have the guy out running every one keeping at max sales cause you can't do enough damage to slow them down from distance and the fact we still have laser stern guns while forward guns some times can't hit the broad side of a barn. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Sir Texas Sir

[Never]

1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

  I still think repair and other things like accuracy needs to be reduced while at full sails.  There is a reason we have battle sails and why it was used instead of full sails during battles.   I said it before how to stop the long chase was to make reduced repiars or no repairs while at full sails.  Make is so you have to drop to Battle sails and below. 

That's a great suggestion, should post it on the proposals thread even though I guess most are happy with arcade gamey repairs. 😐

[Archaos]

9 hours ago, van Veen said:

Thank you for the interesting links. o7

Don't you think that sail area to displacement ratio is a better concept for sail ships than the motive power alone? I mean, you already said that motive power cannot be increased easily, so putting it in relation to something might be the better approach. Sail area correlates with the motive power and displacement increases the wetted area and thus drag. I found that parameter quite helpful with modern sail boats to get a quick idea of their speed capability and found it well correlates with yardstick tables (which are simplistic and old-fashioned, I know, but still good fun when you don't take racing too seriously). 

When I refer to motive power I mean the component of the force in the fore and aft axis driving the vessel ahead. For a motor ship this is relatively straightforward as majority of the force provided through the propeller is in the fore and aft axis with a small amount of transverse thrust due to the rotation of the propeller. But for a sailing vessel it is a bit more complex as it depends on the wind speed, the shape of the sail, the sail area etc. and there is a resolution of forces with only a certain amount of force going into the fore and aft axis to drive the vessel ahead, while other forces cause heel, drift and yaw. So sail area alone does not readily give a figure for motive power, so using it as a ratio to displacement may not work well. As you carry more sail you need more stability to counteract the heeling force,  but this does not necessarily have to only be from increased displacement as it can be from increased beam or a deeper keel which may not necessarily increase the wetted area.

At least that is how I see it and I may be completely wrong as I only have a limited knowledge of Naval Architecture (did 2 years then decided to become a navigator) and I know very little about sailing ships especially ones of the era of NA.

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

15 hours ago, Aquillas said:

Also, something really noticeable is the ship heel when turning sharp. And this also should impact the speed a lot (breaking Kinetic energy).

Whit such heel than herebelow, I don't think that a ship can fire a broadside anywhere else than at 5 feet from hull.

(NB: I know that USS Nimitz is not a Snow...)

 

our snow would stern-rake the nimitz to death if she could only tag her. get gud nimitz-skipper 😵

[erelkivtuadrater]

10 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Back to game stuff.  I still think repair and other things like accuracy needs to be reduced while at full sails.  There is a reason we have battle sails and why it was used instead of full sails during battles.   I said it before how to stop the long chase was to make reduced repiars or no repairs while at full sails.  Make is so you have to drop to Battle sails and below.  Then you won't have the guy out running every one keeping at max sales cause you can't do enough damage to slow them down from distance and the fact we still have laser stern guns while forward guns some times can't hit the broad side of a barn. 

i totally agree, this would overall make the game a better experience and immersive imo. The problem i see is the suggestion would be downvoted by people that prefers to gank 5v1 so you already have the majority of players downvoting the suggestion because it wouldnt favour their gameplay.

Also a thing that should work is to remove the crew needed for sailing if you go down on sail percentage. Say you sail the Surprise which at full speed require 66 crew to man the sails, if you go down to battle sails which is 40% of 66 you stay with 26,4 crew (round it down to 26), so you would have 40 crew that are usable for repair or gunnery etc.

Edited May 26, 2020 by erelkivtuadrater

[van Veen]

15 hours ago, admin said:

I need to tell you something

There was a guy here who argued on wind strength and its effect on speed 

• We said that in a strong wind almost gale a heavy ship will be a lot faster or faster than any frigate because frigate wont be able to take as much sail (and small ships will not sail at all)
• He claimed that we are wrong and argued that the rare out of print book had the proof (he posted the text from the book not the screens) the proof were the real sailing reports .

I did not take it lightly. The book was out of print and was not sold in Europe, so once I got to USA I immediately got this book delivered from a private used book store. 

Here is what he used to claim as proof of our bad view on wind strength.

The guy posted the reference without thinking, without trying to analyze this number of 16 knots for a merchant man. He did not understand what he was talking about and assumed whatever you see in print is correct. The book listed a french merchantman sailing 16 knots.  Every Clipper captain would look at this sailing report with disgust even in 1859. Every Endymion class frigate captain (and Pomone frenchman) would say "excuse me but the veffel wont go so fast"

We accept references only if they are well thought through and understood by the author from the position of theory and practical seamanship and game and game too. Theorists are great but practitioners will always win. 

We are very opinionated on this subject. We wont discuss your position if it is argued from the friend/foe perspective. We always check what we say and pass it through the cross referencing. And wont take it lightly when someone dismisses what we say without actually attempting to understand what we are saying.
 

So we will repeat. The longer ship in with equal conditions be faster. And 18th century ship will never exceed theoretical hull speed.
For example: Using old Endymion waterline length formula - Endymion theoretical hull speed is 16.31

What does it mean? Exactly what we said. Endymion speed will never exceed 16.31-41 knots whatever they do. Never.
Endymion will sail 15.5 knots on the best day based on the reports and will not exceed 16.3 knots whatever hull speed counter-points @Archaos posts here. 

Endymion reports are correct and are listed in multiple sources. And hull speed theory give a proper limit for every age of sail veffel, and is good enough to give a ballpark number without going into eddy making calculations.

Thanks for clarification. I see we are perfectly aligned here. There is always someone who has heard or read about about a specific ship going super fast in one occasio and then considers this a general rule. It all depends on wind conditions and ship type. There is no variable wind in NA, but I do understand that this is a bunch of coding and could result in many people complaining and tribunaling. So I am totally ok with the state of things in game actually. In numerous discussions I have already argued and will keep doing so that NA sailing simulation and combat is unrivaled and the best you can find. 

However, can we agree to dump the concept of hull speed? Because some ships in NA get close to their hull speed, like Endymion most likely did in reality. Others like all 1st rates won't get anywhere near it. And still others like the Snow vastly exceed it. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by van Veen

[Bubba Smith]

On 5/22/2020 at 12:54 PM, Archaos said:

The main driver for speed of a vessel is the motive power. It does not really matter what your length, beam, block coefficient, prismatic coefficient, displacement etc. are without the motive power you are not going anywhere.

For a fixed motive power then you can adjust these other parameters to get more speed. A modern super tanker could have a block coefficient of around 0.85 while the ships we are talking about in NA are around 0.687 for the Santisima Trinidad and 0.611 for the Victory, but the modern supertanker could easily do around 16 knots while the sailing ships could possibly do around 12 knots.

So when comparing speeds you need to look at the motive power first, which in the case of sail ships I guess is the sail area she can carry. Of course for sail ships this also gets further complicated because you cannot just keep adding more sail to get more speed as there is a limit to how much sail the masts can take and the power produced by the sail can differ depending on the wind. If you fix the sail area for both ships and the wind speed so both have the same motive force, then you can start looking at hull form and length to beam ratio to see which would be faster.

Edit: For those interested here is a link I found about comparing ship structures of the time under sail and under fire

http://oa.upm.es/1520/1/PONEN_FRANCISCO_FERNANDEZ_GONZALEZ_01.pdf

That link is very interesting. Nice find indeed! 

[Redman29]

14 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Back to game stuff.  I still think repair and other things like accuracy needs to be reduced while at full sails.  There is a reason we have battle sails and why it was used instead of full sails during battles.   I said it before how to stop the long chase was to make reduced repiars or no repairs while at full sails.  Make is so you have to drop to Battle sails and below.  Then you won't have the guy out running every one keeping at max sales cause you can't do enough damage to slow them down from distance and the fact we still have laser stern guns while forward guns some times can't hit the broad side of a barn. 

Problem is then it becomes easier to board with lower ship speed. Yeah you can go to battle sails and increase your accuracy and repair but that doesn't stop the ship your fighting from coming in full sail, pushing you into the wind and instant kill. 

You would essentially be nerfing those guys that actually like to fight and giving a buff to those that go for the board the first chance they get to avoid having to burn a lot of repairs. Due to the repair meta, boarding occurs way too often compared to actually fighting so this without some sort of major nerf to boarding won't change anything and would make it worst for those of us that despise boarding. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Redman29

[Urchin]

@admin So i logged on after a disco while in battle and greeted with this. Could it be a preview of the map after next update? A map reset? 😃

My chat options changed as well, but still had players online. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Urchin

[admin]

2 hours ago, Urchin said:

@admin So i logged on after a disco while in battle and greeted with this. Could it be a preview of the map after next update? A map reset? 😃

 

My chat options changed as well, but still had players online. 

 

no this is most likely issues with your internet connection

[Sir Texas Sir]

7 hours ago, Redman29 said:

Problem is then it becomes easier to board with lower ship speed. Yeah you can go to battle sails and increase your accuracy and repair but that doesn't stop the ship your fighting from coming in full sail, pushing you into the wind and instant kill. 

You would essentially be nerfing those guys that actually like to fight and giving a buff to those that go for the board the first chance they get to avoid having to burn a lot of repairs. Due to the repair meta, boarding occurs way too often compared to actually fighting so this without some sort of major nerf to boarding won't change anything and would make it worst for those of us that despise boarding. 

I never been a big fan of the push into wind to board cause really no ships did this during this time.  They slowed you down by shooting your sails/rigging until they could match speed and board you.   So a solution would be to bring back ram damage to the front of ships that try to ram other ships and increase chance of leaks.  That way if they fail the push than they have a big chance of sinking there own ships.  Also boarding happens to easily and with server lag there really should be a timer of the pull that allows better escape chances and such.  My 4.5 Knots might be your 3.6 all the while the game is actually saying 3.2 and allows me to be pulled.  

[erelkivtuadrater]

8 hours ago, Redman29 said:

You would essentially be nerfing those guys that actually like to fight and giving a buff to those that go for the board the first chance they get to avoid having to burn a lot of repairs. Due to the repair meta, boarding occurs way too often compared to actually fighting so this without some sort of major nerf to boarding won't change anything and would make it worst for those of us that despise boarding. 

so we get a logical counter to the repair meta? its that what you're saying? sounds great

Edited May 26, 2020 by erelkivtuadrater

[Luvstruck]

On 5/25/2020 at 12:20 PM, admin said:

I need to tell you something

There was a guy here who argued on wind strength and its effect on speed 

• We said that in a strong wind almost gale a heavy ship will be a lot faster or faster than any frigate because frigate wont be able to take as much sail (and small ships will not sail at all)
• He claimed that we are wrong and argued that the rare out of print book had the proof (he posted the text from the book not the screens) the proof were the real sailing reports .

I did not take it lightly. The book was out of print and was not sold in Europe, so once I got to USA I immediately got this book delivered from a private used book store. 

Here is what he used to claim as proof of our bad view on wind strength.

The guy posted the reference without thinking, without trying to analyze this number of 16 knots for a merchant man. He did not understand what he was talking about and assumed whatever you see in print is correct. The book listed a french merchantman sailing 16 knots.  Every Clipper captain would look at this sailing report with disgust even in 1859. Every Endymion class frigate captain (and Pomone frenchman) would say "excuse me but the veffel wont go so fast"

We accept references only if they are well thought through and understood by the author from the position of theory and practical seamanship and game and game too. Theorists are great but practitioners will always win. 

We are very opinionated on this subject. We wont discuss your position if it is argued from the friend/foe perspective. We always check what we say and pass it through the cross referencing. And wont take it lightly when someone dismisses what we say without actually attempting to understand what we are saying.
 

So we will repeat. The longer ship in with equal conditions be faster. And 18th century ship will never exceed theoretical hull speed.
For example: Using old Endymion waterline length formula - Endymion theoretical hull speed is 16.31

What does it mean? Exactly what we said. Endymion speed will never exceed 16.31-41 knots whatever they do. Never.
Endymion will sail 15.5 knots on the best day based on the reports and will not exceed 16.3 knots whatever hull speed counter-points @Archaos posts here. 

Endymion reports are correct and are listed in multiple sources. And hull speed theory give a proper limit for every age of sail veffel, and is good enough to give a ballpark number without going into eddy making calculations.

What book is this?

[Luvstruck]

1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I never been a big fan of the push into wind to board cause really no ships did this during this time.  They slowed you down by shooting your sails/rigging until they could match speed and board you.   So a solution would be to bring back ram damage to the front of ships that try to ram other ships and increase chance of leaks.  That way if they fail the push than they have a big chance of sinking there own ships.  Also boarding happens to easily and with server lag there really should be a timer of the pull that allows better escape chances and such.  My 4.5 Knots might be your 3.6 all the while the game is actually saying 3.2 and allows me to be pulled.  

I'm still a fan of bumping / ramming does damage.