RNG - Rare ships discussion

[Anolytic]

Let’s accept that devs want some ships to be «rare», i.e. permits obtainable by RNG from chests only. While I object to this concept in principle, given that this seems to be already decided I will rather focus my input on what ships should and should not be, rare.

This is the list of ten ships mentioned by devs as being rare ships:

• Santisima
• Christian
• Bellona
• Constitution
• Indefatigable
• Endymion
• Renommee
• Rattlesnake
• Rattlesnake heavy
• Niagara

Questions have been raised by others about the future status of LGV Refit, Diana and Santa Cecilia, three ships that would also be likely candidates for rarity. I would think that these three are better fits than some of the ships on the list, though Santa Cecilia has in the past been mentioned as a possible exclusive reward-ship for tournaments and gifts from the developers.

Regarding the aforementioned list, there are a few ships I think should not be there. Mainly because of how they affect the balance in RvR. I am opposed to any lineships being «rare», except through higher pricing. Although these three lineships are all replaceable in RvR-setups given their current BR and balancing, I would much prefer if they were, in addition to RNG-drops from chests, also available to use in RvR in form of permits being purchaseable for a significantly higher price in Victory Marks.

My reason for wanting the Indefatigable and the Renommee not to be rare is that they are both ships that I find are often under-appreciated, yet are both great ships for levelling captains to learn the game and get introduced to PvP. If they are made rare I fear that both or one of them will not be sailed nearly enough for captains to appreciate their beauty and performance, and not enough captains will figure out just how great these ships both are.

Lastly the Rattlesnakes and the Niagara. I am concerned about limiting the tactical and variety choices in the shallow waters for beginners, and the diversity in shallow water PBs, which is already limited. But most of all the Niagara, as I have said before, should not be rare, given that with its sailing profile and BR it is unique in its ability to contend with and fill the role that can otherwise only be relegated to DLC-ships in RvR. The Niagara permit should also be purchasable for Victory Marks. Make it as expensive as a first rate, but those who do RvR should be able to utilise it in lieu of DLC-ships should they wish to.

[Beeekonda]

Niagara, RS Heavy and Renommee? RLY?

[Snoopy]

I loathe RNG gating for things, however,

the list in itself makes sense historically, if you want to recreate a 1790-1810 era feel. All these ships would classify as rare or one offs in those years except Bellona.
Her offspring were numerous and though she was still in service her 1760s gallery in the game make her look out of place for the time (same with Wappen, Inger,..) so this tells me that if GL locks Bellona away behind RNG this can only mean we will get another 74 we can build. If that happens, I'm on board.

Ideally, a French or Spanish 36pd 74, a British 32pd, and maybe a 'heavy' 74 with 32/24/9 pd gundecks like HMS Mars (1794) but any permit free 74 will do.

Limiting Endymions is a good thing, I always felt that it was a mistake adding the legendary one-off of the one-offs to the game, balancing her would always be a nightmare.. you will either end up blatantly op or not do it justice. Would've been better to rename the model Severn or any other of her class and balance it as needed.

[Angus MacDuff]

You missed the boat on this one, @Anolytic. There was an announcement that there would only be four (I think) rare ships.  Not sure where it is....

[Angus MacDuff]

6 minutes ago, Louis Garneray said:

look for Admin posts and you'll see that he is talking about 10 of them.

Indeed...and then he made another post and said there would be four rare

[Teutonic]

There is only 1 ship in the list of 10 that I disagree with being rare, and that is the Rattlesnake Heavy.

All the rest are fine by me.

My issue was the permits on 54% of ships (from intrepido) was absolutely bonkers. I much prefer the new smaller defined list.

[John Cavanaugh]

16 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

There is only 1 ship in the list of 10 that I disagree with being rare, and that is the Rattlesnake Heavy.

All the rest are fine by me.

My issue was the permits on 54% of ships (from intrepido) was absolutely bonkers. I much prefer the new smaller defined list.

I prefer testicular cancer rather than AIDs. 

[Serk]

3 hours ago, Snoopy said:

I loathe RNG gating for things, however,

the list in itself makes sense historically, if you want to recreate a 1790-1810 era feel. All these ships would classify as rare or one offs in those years except Bellona.
Her offspring were numerous and though she was still in service her 1760s gallery in the game make her look out of place for the time (same with Wappen, Inger,..) so this tells me that if GL locks Bellona away behind RNG this can only mean we will get another 74 we can build. If that happens, I'm on board.

Ideally, a French or Spanish 36pd 74, a British 32pd, and maybe a 'heavy' 74 with 32/24/9 pd gundecks like HMS Mars (1794) but any permit free 74 will do.

Limiting Endymions is a good thing, I always felt that it was a mistake adding the legendary one-off of the one-offs to the game, balancing her would always be a nightmare.. you will either end up blatantly op or not do it justice. Would've been better to rename the model Severn or any other of her class and balance it as needed.

I always felt the game should focus on the late 18th-early 19th century, for easier balance between ships. It can be a nightmare to artificially buff old rmodels to make them competitive with later lineships,for exemple, so I really don't mind seeing reno or inger being rare on purpose.

Regarding Bellona, 3 new 3rd rates have been announced so far (Téméraire class (french), Montanes (spanish) and Wrecker class (dutch)), but none are being worked on before the release IIRC.

I also wouldn't mind have Endymion as a rare ship (but would still be a loss as the ship model looks terrific.) as long as we have a bit more option with napoleonian era 18pdrs frigates. I'd love to see a french Pallas class frigate in game.

 

@adminInstead of DLC ships, have you considered launching some kind of parallel kickstarter campaign with stretch goals to finance the addition of more ships that would be available to all in the game? Could this work?

Edited April 21, 2019 by Serk

[Aquillas]

There is another fun ship which vanished in going and returning waves, the Gunboat.

I know this is not the utmost important ship for RvR, but it is fun to use it from times to times in PVP. And more fun means more players. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Eleazar de Damas

[LeBoiteux]

-

Edited April 21, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[Shrez]

Just remove Santissima aswell or better remove all from rng  on PvE!!

thx

Edited April 22, 2019 by Shrez

[Vizzini]

I'd prefer making everything attainable via currency of one form or another rather than gating them behind RNG or PVE missions. They could be made ultra expensive but this in turn would help to act as a gold sink ( so to speak ) and solve some of the hyper inflation issues will be encounter 1 month or so after release

Anything on the PVP server hidden or gated by any form of PVE is bad and should be avoided.

 

Rare is fine , forcing PVP players to grind bots for a chance of their favourite ship is not

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

gunboat rattle heavy, diana, santa cecila, christan hidden in rng boxes, ok

but all the other have to be accessibles via admiralty permits too in doubloons or medals.

 

And why do we keep the uss united states next to the constitution ? as the first is nothing but a bad model for the second ?

[Angus MacDuff]

14 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

Rare is fine , forcing PVP players to grind bots for a chance of their favourite ship is not

I don't see that PVP players are forced to grind bots.  The reward chests are available from the PVP missions.  You can grind bots also if you want (gotta open those slots), but it is not mandatory to gain the gold or Captain's chests.

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

Could be both:

Very expensive purchase of any permit from Admiralty, the direct way.

And random loot from chests.

So those who are rich and impatient can always turn towards their Admiralty, while others wait for their lucky moment.

[Vizzini]

46 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I don't see that PVP players are forced to grind bots.  The reward chests are available from the PVP missions.  You can grind bots also if you want (gotta open those slots), but it is not mandatory to gain the gold or Captain's chests.

thats all well and good, but what if it's during a time when the pop is low ?What if players can vanish into a quiet corner of the map to grind permits ? Will it help PVP ?  The point is made by the devs often , the PVP server is for fighting other players, If you want to PVE go to the PVE server. They cannot have it both ways when it suits

 

Gating rewards won't help the fun

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Vizzini said:

They cannot have it both ways when it suits

Of course they can.  It is their game to play as they choose.  There is no need to force players to do PVP only.  The server needs to cater to all styles of play. 

[LeBoiteux]

Can someone explain to me what is fun about rare ships and not being able to sail the ships you like ?

Long time ago, the suggestion of naval careers was made : be a privateer and buy the very ships you like and can afford by looting or be a naval officer and sail the ship you are assigned to and fulfill the missions you are given. That was IMHO a funnier idea (not to say historical) in the same vein. Btw the career of naval officers could use the mechanic of rare ships with a counterpart : the immediate access to ships without having to craft/buy/etc. them.

[Teutonic]

2 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Can someone explain to me what is fun about rare ships and not being able to sail the ships you like ?

Long time ago, the suggestion of naval careers was made : be a privateer and buy the very ships you like and can afford by looting or be a naval officer and sail the ship you are assigned to and fulfill the missions you are given. That was IMHO a funnier idea (not to say historical) in the same vein. Btw the career of naval officers could use the mechanic of rare ships with a counterpart : the immediate access to ships without having to craft/buy/etc. them.

You're basically asking why an MMO platform designates rarity?

Because that is how you have people grind and play the game to get what they want. MMOs have things that are easy to get and hard to get.

I want a titan in eve online - but it is hard to get, do I complain? No because you are not supposed to easily get a titan or else you'd screw the game up.

[LeBoiteux]

25 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

You're basically asking why an MMO platform designates rarity?

Because that is how you have people grind and play the game to get what they want. MMOs have things that are easy to get and hard to get.

I want a titan in eve online - but it is hard to get, do I complain? No because you are not supposed to easily get a titan or else you'd screw the game up.

Are you telling me that NA devs had wonderful ideas when they firstly consider implementing an OW (exploration, careers...) but they finally refrain and add others (rarity...) only in the name of those 3 ugly letters : M, M, O ?

Edited April 23, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[Barbarosa]

20 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Can someone explain to me what is fun about rare ships and not being able to sail the ships you like ?

It is almost the same as the rarity of intelligence and wisdom. The only difference is you are well aware if you have that rare ship or not.

MMO's are not a good place for seeking instant gratification since it has to consider the whole player base. In single games, it is more easily attainable but still, some fun is hidden behind certain achievements for a reason.  

Having DLC ships doesn't justify the opposite logic. They are simply wrong to have. 

[LeBoiteux]

8 minutes ago, Barbarosa said:

It is almost the same as the rarity of intelligence and wisdom. The only difference is you are well aware if you have that rare ship or not.

There is a lot of intelligence in this world. What it lack is goodness. And you generally are aware if you don't have it.

[Zlatkowar]

On 4/22/2019 at 12:18 PM, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Could be both:

Very expensive purchase of any permit from Admiralty, the direct way.

And random loot from chests.

So those who are rich and impatient can always turn towards their Admiralty, while others wait for their lucky moment.

Amen to that.

I find the Santi to be a curious choice... I would have opted for L'Océan, guess it's either a matter of taste or use diff between PvE and PvP.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

Grind should be the last ressort for player retention, RvR & the whole dynamic around it (eco - traders - privateers - privateer hunters - conquest - eco) should be 1st priority, no community is build around grind, and that's what fuel mmo sandboxes.

 

Also how does it make sense to have the Renomée rarer than Trincomalee ? Rattlesnake rarer than Le Requin ? I think the question remain valid, mmo or not.  We end with an Argentinian shallow frigate pierced with 18pd more common than a flush decked brig like the Niagara we got used to for years. That don't look super rational.

Making 12pd frigates rarer than 9pd one, 18pd ones rarer than 12pd & 24pd rarer than 18pd i could understand and that was somewhat achievable via permits costs and making the bigger the most expensive.

Make them all both as note in random loot from chests and  availlable to craft from admiralty permit (maybe except fantasy ships like pirate frigate, bellona with 24pd deck & rattle heavy  + santa cecilia permit that could remain a kind of hidden treasure even if i don't really understand why)

 

But even then, who will pay a super expensive permit for a rattle, niagara or a renomée ? no one. 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[Zlatkowar]

10 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

But even then, who will pay a super expensive permit for a rattle, niagara or a renomée ? no one. 

Nostalgic players ツ

And I am not saying this as if it was a good thing.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Zlatkowar
Text added