Le Requin Testing and Feedback

[Aquillas]

On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 4:01 PM, z4ys said:

 

 

Guess its being build after the plans of https://ancre.fr/en/monograph/18-monographie-du-requin-chebec-1750-.html

 

 

These superb pictures, to be compared to this video about the construction of the Hermione:

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Aquillas

[William Death]

One issue, still not addressed as an issue by some, is the fact that Xebec gets +30% bonus and no negative for using Elite Pirate Rig.

You cannot compare that to any square rigged ship with Elite Spanish Rig +30% downwind -30% upwind. 

Privateer, Lynx, Prince, etc...all upwind ships, sure. But they have some negatives applied for using pirate rig refits (these ships all have square sails [very few, in some cases, but present nonetheless]). Xebec gets no negatives applied when using that module. You cannot compare these ships+mods either. 

 

To put it plainly:

14kn+ Bellonas and Ingermanlands are not a problem when they have such negatives applied that literally _any decent_ (read: not slow & tanky build ex. LO/WO or WO/WO) 6th/5th/4th/3rd rate can outrun them at multiple angles upwind, or match them downwind (Indefatigable+Elite Spanish = faster at all angles than Bellona+Elite Spanish).

14kn+ Xebec is a problem when it gets bonuses applied to all angles by using the equivalent mod as the Bellona/Inger in the example above.

 

Hopefully the apples-to-bananas comparison that people make is shown here. You can't have a ship that gets 100% bonus from a mod while all other ships using the same mod (or the equivalent downwind Spanish rig mod) get a negative applied along with their bonus.

 

 

I'll agree with nerfing the sail force modules a little, but you don't need to nerf them so much that they become useless (regular Spanish Rig is nearly useless already). But that won't fix the Xebec + Pirate Rig problem. There are only two fixes for that: remove ability to equip that module on Xebec (easy and functional fix), or find a way to code the module so that it will provide downwind negatives when equipped on Xebec (probably more difficult to code, but ultimately a better fix).

I say that nerfing the sail force modules won't fix the issue, because you'll still have one ship getting 100% bonus from a mod while all other ships using the same mod, receive a negative along with their bonus. See above.

Nerfing the mods without fixing Requin + Pirate Rig doesn't fix the issue, it simply makes the problem worse by further hurting other ships yet still keeping Xebec at 100% bonus for using that mod. And no matter how much you nerf it, even down to +5% bonus, the Requin will still get 100% of that 5%, whereas all other ships will get 50% of that 5%. Broken.

 

While we're on the topic of removing ability to equip certain modules, it'd be nice to see light ship hammocks ability to mount on Xebec removed. I redeemed one almost every day till I got a Teak/Crewspace/Very Cramped, and a Live Oak/Crewspace/Very Cramped. Both of those ships with full crew stacks carry 387 crew, IIRC. More than any other 5th rate base. Simply dumb. But I'm sure someone will be along very soon to defend the crew count of Requin as well. 

 

I'll just be happy when the Requin and Hercules get *just* enough nerfs that the standard 5th rates become viable for solo PvP again.

[Licinio Chiavari]

41 minutes ago, William Death said:

One issue, still not addressed as an issue by some, is the fact that Xebec gets +30% bonus and no negative for using Elite Pirate Rig.

You cannot compare that to any square rigged ship with Elite Spanish Rig +30% downwind -30% upwind. 

Privateer, Lynx, Prince, etc...all upwind ships, sure. But they have some negatives applied for using pirate rig refits (these ships all have square sails [very few, in some cases, but present nonetheless]). Xebec gets no negatives applied when using that module. You cannot compare these ships+mods either. 

 

To put it plainly:

14kn+ Bellonas and Ingermanlands are not a problem when they have such negatives applied that literally _any decent_ (read: not slow & tanky build ex. LO/WO or WO/WO) 6th/5th/4th/3rd rate can outrun them at multiple angles upwind, or match them downwind (Indefatigable+Elite Spanish = faster at all angles than Bellona+Elite Spanish).

14kn+ Xebec is a problem when it gets bonuses applied to all angles by using the equivalent mod as the Bellona/Inger in the example above.

 

Your analysis is plain reasonable as usual.

Still sail force mods are used where the advantage (Spanish on high square sail percentage, Pirate on high jib percentage) highly surpass the disavantage. And the example of Privateer (I started some tests on various ships - how to waste a tiny bit of richness...) dpesnt work.

Yesterday a t/t v.fast Privateer empty with AoSH was going (sorry for weird downwind angle, study done looking forward for hunting, so not interested in standard 135° broadreach):
45°    14.2 kts
90°    12.8 kts
120°  11.8 kts
150°  11.1 kts

Adding only normal Pirate refit I got following values:
45°    15.5 kts
90°    13.8 kts
120°  12.7 kts
150°  11.6 kts

So in the end Privateer is getting a plain bonus almost in any direction, even downwind. Simply stronger the closer to the wind. And it's obvious: the +15% is applied to a vast majority of sails (jibs AND spankers) while -15% malus only to 2 small square sails.

So... there're already other ships getting only bonuses from Pirate Rig Refit. Not bad giving schooners some love - like buffing a bit sailing profile and buffing Privateer (in particular) crew to make her viable as light raider (at the moment 60 makes her barely usable against light traders. I was thinking about 90-100 crew: still smaller than 6th rates (traders aside), still adequately small to be able to high a reasonable maximum high of 140 so not really bigger than all 6th rates.

Moreover a 14.5-15+ kts Bellona remains an issue.
a) in the end it's available (and can be risked) to a limited percentage of rich players (I'd like to remember that at the moment a Golden Bellona t/wo 5/5 v.fast is being sold at over 40 mil - we have an idea of her speed with Elite Spanish + Naval Clock + Copper +2? + Art of Ship Handling?)
b) it's (like Wasas Stardestroyers) almost un-counter-able by great majority of players... even with very fast and light ships.
c) in skilled hands can easily (demasting FTW) take out 2-3 5th rate taggers well before any heavier mate could come and help.
d) it's keeping killing the use of a lot other ships.

Therefore I keep suggesting a general nerf of all mods/books first and foremost for sake of accessibility of PvP for also casual players.

About the Requin and Pirate Refit (post general nerf): make it simply dont working on Requin (then I'd say slightly buffing part of Requin sailing profile being impossible to buff with a sail force mod - contrary to other ships).

 

57 minutes ago, William Death said:

While we're on the topic of removing ability to equip certain modules, it'd be nice to see light ship hammocks ability to mount on Xebec removed. I redeemed one almost every day till I got a Teak/Crewspace/Very Cramped, and a Live Oak/Crewspace/Very Cramped. Both of those ships with full crew stacks carry 387 crew, IIRC. More than any other 5th rate base. Simply dumb. But I'm sure someone will be along very soon to defend the crew count of Requin as well. 

A fairly simply solution could be simply move Requin back to 5th rates (so no more Light Hammocks and depowered Hammocks books) still giving her ability to enter shallow waters (for minimum sake of realism) but not shallow ports (like Hercules right now). And banning Hercules altogether from shallow waters.

So solving too the Shallow PBs issues of being all Requins.

[Bluetooth]

9 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

Merrill please you guys do not defend the developers about this ship. It is what you guys (should I tell the names? you understand) look like doing in this post and it looks pathetic. Defensive posts are not even close to being satisfactory, but seem like just doing something to defend.

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Crow
Face palmed myself.

[Elric]

With players 

16 hours ago, William Death said:

While we're on the topic of removing ability to equip certain modules, it'd be nice to see light ship hammocks ability to mount on Xebec removed. I redeemed one almost every day till I got a Teak/Crewspace/Very Cramped, and a Live Oak/Crewspace/Very Cramped. Both of those ships with full crew stacks carry 387 crew, IIRC. More than any other 5th rate base. Simply dumb. But I'm sure someone will be along very soon to defend the crew count of Requin as well. 

Maybe removing the possibility of getting crafting bonuses from DLC ships is part of the answer.

Remove the ability to own multiple of the same DLC ship at the same time.

Like many others, I feel the Requin should have more negatives. 

• The Hull and Structure should be far weaker. 
• Bow should be much weaker to reduce constant attempts to rage board - and should result in leaks and not just damage
• Crew losses to both ball and grape should be much higher. 
• Boarding a much higher ship should also come with penalties.  Crew on the requin have no easy way of scaling the sides of decks.  There is far less rigging on the requin to help use for boarding, or entangling the opponent ship to hold it while boarding.  

Edited August 28, 2018 by Elric

[Hethwill]

36 minutes ago, Elric said:

Boarding a much higher ship should also come with penalties.

Already does. 🙄

[Elric]

13 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Already does. 🙄

There is a deck's penalty - but I don't think that gives enough of a penalty.  For example: the Requin alongside an LGV - while both have a single deck, the requin is appreciably lower - and against some of the 2-deck ships, massively lower.

[z4ys]

2 minutes ago, Elric said:

There is a deck's penalty - but I don't think that gives enough of a penalty.  For example: the Requin alongside an LGV - while both have a single deck, the requin is appreciably lower - and against some of the 2-deck ships, massively lower.

Game just looks a deck difference. Lgv one deck requin one deck.

Lgv vs prince prince has 2 decks 😉

[Hethwill]

43 minutes ago, Elric said:

There is a deck's penalty - but I don't think that gives enough of a penalty.  For example: the Requin alongside an LGV - while both have a single deck, the requin is appreciably lower - and against some of the 2-deck ships, massively lower.

You notice the difference when vanilla ships, nothing on any slots of any kind. Especially on firepower.

[Bluetooth]

Requin report.

Still.........

sexy.

😀

[admin]

Le requin BR has been increased to 160 (almost 2 rattlesnakes heavy)
Several 6th rates got their speed stats adjusted to be faster than L.R. at certain angles. 
We will continue monitoring the stats and adjusting the performance to provide real alternatives to L.R. 
 

[z4ys]

Finally le requin can attack 1St rates alone

are they now excluded from pbs or got the enter system changed as well?

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, admin said:

Le requin BR has been increased to 160 (almost 2 rattlesnakes heavy)
Several 6th rates got their speed stats adjusted to be faster than L.R. at certain angles. 
We will continue monitoring the stats and adjusting the performance to provide real alternatives to L.R. 
 

once again what about the crew resistance on the open deck? that would fix so many problems with the requin

[HachiRoku]

39 minutes ago, admin said:

Le requin BR has been increased to 160 (almost 2 rattlesnakes heavy)
Several 6th rates got their speed stats adjusted to be faster than L.R. at certain angles. 
We will continue monitoring the stats and adjusting the performance to provide real alternatives to L.R. 
 

Buffing 6th rates overall is not a solution imo. If 6th rates get to strong you will need to buff smaller 5th rates. If they get to strong you need to buff bigger 5th rates and so on. It's kind of an endless cycle imo. 6th rates were already very strong. Do you intend on balancing masts between 5th and 6th rates. Herc had stronger masts than surp last time i looked but I guess it's a heavier ship in certain ways. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

47 minutes ago, admin said:

Le requin BR has been increased to 160 (almost 2 rattlesnakes heavy)
Several 6th rates got their speed stats adjusted to be faster than L.R. at certain angles. 
We will continue monitoring the stats and adjusting the performance to provide real alternatives to L.R. 
 

BR is a good step so you can’t take as many.  When Hercs ar fought changes to it we found 2-3 ships hard on it can sink them easily so that prob about right with the Requin.  Just it can more easily escape the fight.  The BR will make some difference in PB too.

39 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Finally le requin can attack 1St rates alone

are they now excluded from pbs or got the enter system changed as well?

Why is the 1st rate alone in the first place?

[HachiRoku]

7 minutes ago, Wyy said:

once again what about the crew resistance on the open deck? that would fix so many problems with the requin

This is hard to get right. If crew resistance is to low there will be a grape meta again. That used to be one of the worst metas. I would love them to lower it but it's really important to do right. 

[admin]

12 minutes ago, Wyy said:

once again what about the crew resistance on the open deck? that would fix so many problems with the requin

crew bug was fixed almost a month ago. Aim at the open deck and you will inflict good casualties.

[admin]

45 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

What means 'almost' if 2x80=160?

Can Requin still enter shallow PB?

yes. but we hope many will take 2 rattlesnakes or niagaras instead of 1 LR.

[Lovec1990]

we seriously need musket fire and deck guns they would be seriously effective against heavy crewed open requin

Edited August 29, 2018 by Lovec1990

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

crew bug was fixed almost a month ago. Aim at the open deck and you will inflict good casualties.

great! i will test it and give a feedback on it or even keep it to myself and surprise other players

[z4ys]

12 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Why is the 1st rate alone in the first place?

Happened just yesterday. found a lone ocean. coulnt tag him with my prince. had to call a friend. we decrewed him to 145 crew (was still to much vs my 175 crew) because of dd.

So I can understand anyone using the xebec with max crew to bypass dd meta.

[admin]

7 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

and Hercules still has only 100 BR? That's like one step fix with the second leg still behind.

 

i think hercules is 220 now. Dont remember exactly but somewhere above 200

[King of Crowns]

1 minute ago, admin said:

i think hercules is 220 now. Dont remember exactly but somewhere above 200

goooooooooooooooood let the tears flow!

[z4ys]

8 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

we seriously need musket fire and deck guns they would be seriously effective against heavy crewed open requin

grape works fine against le requin have you even tested that?

[admin]

1 minute ago, King of Crowns said:

goooooooooooooooood let the tears flow!

there wont be tears
as the ship stats are the same and it is the same hercules (with slight reduction of the wind power at 180)